Some stuff about V4

[Lys]

Haven't really been keeping up with whatever the new White Wolf is releasing about their One World of Darkness, but i found something interesting today. David Hill, one of the Onyx Path freelancers, posted in 4chan's /tg/ about how Dracula's (Martin Ericsson) vision for V4 is already affecting one of the remaining V20 books that are on the pipeline to be published:

Now, on White Wolf changes specifically, I don't know the purpose for removing Souleaters. But there are some sweeping changes that were less word-intensive, but hugely implication intensive, IMO.

For example, one of the Storyteller Characters in Black Hand was a vampire who died and became a wraith. This of course was always a thing. If any of you might remember, Wraith was originally advertised as a way to keep playing your Vampire/other PC after dying.

Now, vampires cannot become wraiths at all, unless they've achieved Golconda. Which changes a few references in post. In this specific instance, it means we have a character in that book who has objectively reached Golconda. No ambiguity. No nothing. I think that's a big deal.

Also, they made me change references - even figurative ones - to vampires potentially having souls. Now, Vampire characters objectively do not have souls. And souls, according to the new White Wolf, are Eidolons. Which you might be familiar with as a trait.

I personally think that has immense impact on the game. Unprecedented, even.

So yeah. There will be some big changes. Some bigger than others. I'm curious how they plan to do some of this.

And as a slight clarification:

Vampires objectively do not have souls, unless they've achieved Golconda. So I guess Golconda will be a process by which a vampire gets a soul.

Which is weird to me.

On the one hand, it's nice to hear that Dracula put a stop to Souleaters being mentioned ever again, because it was a stupid idea that isn't worth salvaging. On the other hand, vampires objectively not having souls is... well it's a huge change with massive implications that overturn large parts of the established Masquerade lore. Can't say i like it, but eh, i guess we'll see.

Also there's this a bit further down, in response to someone wondering how the fuck Infernalism works now that there's no soul for a Demon to sink its hooks into:

Good question.

I do know that they want to pull hard away from demons. I had to cut any explicit references to demons. Which, if you know Black Hand, you should know is pretty damned hard.

Not just that, but the Black Hand doesn't actually know what a demon is, now. What they call demons, and what a large part of their cult has focused on for thousands of years is more an... umbrella term for "quasi-biblical entities, Lovecraftian demigods, and vedic spirits" in their words.

[Josh]

Shit, I was under the impression that Souleaters were disowned like five minutes after Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand hit the shelf.

Along with the True Brujah and so on.

[Lys]

As far as i know Souleaters were never directly mentioned again in official material, which is pretty close to disowning them. That is why it surprised me a while back when i learned that they were going to be brought up in the V20 Black Hand book. The Tal'Mahe'Ra wasn't disowned however, as it continued to be mentioned in the metaplot, but mostly for the purposes of dismantling them. They lost agents, prominent members, and support until eventually their secret base of operations got nuked, effectively destroying the conspiracy. The Old Clan Tzimisce and Trujah bloodlines also stuck around, showing up in Dark Ages and other stuff, they're even in the V20 Corebook.

[Cynical Cat]

Soul eaters are mentioned in a couple of places as crazy shit the some of the Old Clan jabbers about but no one else takes seriously but no one tells an 800 year old vampire he's full of shit to his face. They're kind of important to the True Hand as the True Hand has killing them as one of its major missions, but for an outside observer Vicissitude weirdness is virtually indistinguishable from Soul Eater bullshit (who are supposedly the source Vicissitude and its weirdness) and thus passes as or really is Tzimisce on Tzimisce feuding. Their existence is left up to the GM, but you have to pretty much piss all over much of the established Tzimisce history to make them real or have the Old Clan as anything but a small offshot bloodline with grandiose claims.

Vampiric infernalism doesn't require souls, because demons don't really want vampire souls because they're damaged goods. What they want is vampiric service because the service of an immortal who already has kick ass magical powers and a parasitic relationship with humanity is really fucking useful. But vampires not having souls (as opposed to tainted, damaged ones) isn't a change that's filling me with love.

edit: Possession by Kupala's demons, who twist the bodies of their hosts (which can include trees) has also, in the lore, been mistaken for Soul Eater activity. Of course, the main line of Tzimisce kill these demons when they find them and cross the Umbra on Kupala's night in a Vicissitude fuel slaughter fest so yes, White Wolf ran far away from the Soul Eaters as soon as possible.

[Lys]

The way i would like the Old Clan is for them to really be the Old Clan, but only on a technicality. The Tzimisce Eldest wasn't inborn with Vicissitude, it was something she eventually developed, possibly with the help of Kupala. She then offered it as a gift to all of her childer, and most of them took it, except for a few of the youngest ones.They were not as close to their sire as their elder siblings, and were horrified and disgusted by the new Discipline, and so refused it. Later on they would claim they had realized that partaking of the Eldest's flesh would have inextricably bound them and their childer to her, for Vicissitude wasn't just by the Eldest, but of the Eldest. The rest of the Clan scoffs at this, saying that it is mere squeamishness that keeps them from seizing power over flesh. So while technically the Old Clan retains the original spread of Clan Disciplines, they are and always have been an eccentric minority. (Yes i know canonically the Eldest is a he, but this is fanon, so i don't care.)

As for infernalism and vampiric souls, i don't actually recall any setting material explicitly supporting the notion that vampire souls are damaged. Like, you can draw that conclusion from established lore, and it's a sensible conclusion, but nothing establishes that this is necessarily the case. Indeed you could argue the opposite given that wraiths made from vampires aren't weak or deficient to the best of my knowledge. Either way though, the way that demons are described to be able to compel service from infernalist vampires is precisely by taking part of the vampire's soul. While wise and powerful infernalists can choose to limit themselves to mundane favour trading with demons, the majority do not have the power to force a demon to stick to the bargain except by using their own soul to make a binding contract (which the demon will proceed to rules-lawyer anyway). This gives the demon a hold on that soul, which it can then use to further influence and compel the vampire. So the whole thing on a mystical level is contingent on vampires having a soul to trade.

[Cynical Cat]

Vampire souls are explicitly damaged goods. That's why they can't do True Magick and that's why their souls are low value goods for the infernalists. It's not that they don't have souls and don't pledge them, it's just that they're shitty value. Its the service of an immortal parasite that already has bad ass magic powers that makes infernalist vampires valuable. This is mostly talked about in 2nd edition Sabbat stuff if I recall correctly. So infernalism can work just fine without Vampire souls since what demons value is vampiric servants.

As for you Tzimisce timeline, here's the problem: it doesn't work with the established history of the Clan. At all. Every Methuselah and Elder mentioned has Vicissitude from the Drakon to the Indian branch to the African all use Vicissitude. Vicissitude precedes the arrival of the Eldest in Eastern Europe. There is literally no member of the Old Clan mentioned by name in the histories and no branch of the Old Clan outside Eastern Europe. Their are no legendary figures and no great deeds accredited to them. They make much more sense as a local breakaway faction that has massaged history so they are pure and that everyone else is not.

[Lys]

Ah well, the Masquerade i'm most familiar with is Revised-era, especially Dark Ages. So while i have read a lot of Revised and V20 (which is just Revised minus metaplot), i have read very little from before. Like i said, it does make a lot of sense that Vampire souls are damaged goods. It's just that i haven't seen anywhere that explicitly says it as opposed to merely implying it, and that there are other things that could be taken to imply the opposite. If such references are mostly in 2nd Edition, then yeah of course i haven't seen it. Either way, the main point was that the metaphysics of how demons make vampires into their servants involve souls. That could be rewritten such that the metaphysical bind is an inherent part of the contract rather than an effect of the soul being traded, but it's still a rewrite of the established lore, and not one i necessarily like.

If my preferred interpretation of the Old Clan were supported by the lore, i wouldn't have had to call it fanon, now would i? It does require introducing stuff that wasn't mentioned before, such as older Old Clan members, and branches of the Old Clan outside Eastern Europe, but i think that it avoids contradicting established lore as much as Souleaters do. It also has the advantage of not being as viscerally stupid as Souleaters.

Of course my really preferred approach to Vicissitude and the Old Clan is to make the Old Clan's Disciplines the default for all Tzimisce, and turn Vicissitude into the Koldunic Way of Flesh. Then the Old Clan just refers to a group of Elders in Transylvania that the Anarchs could neither overcome nor subvert. The rest of the clan mostly just lets them to brood in their castles and pretend the Voivodate is still a thing. However that particularly change requires significant rewriting the clan's history, since flesh-shapers are now a rarity rather than the rule. Still it emphasizes the aspect of them i like best (Sorcerous Eastern-European Vampire-Lords) over the one i like least (Necroscope body horror vampires).

[Cynical Cat]

I prefer the Old Clan as a mix of Tzimisce cruelty, the viciousness of a defeated army, and the bitterness and self-serving illusions of exiled aristocrats. It's so very human.

[Lys]

That's pretty much what they still are in both of my alternate scenarios.

[Cynical Cat]

Your version doesn't have enough buy in to the self deluding lies.

[Lys]

That's because my versions made it so that there's some truth to the lies, because i find that more interesting.

[Cynical Cat]

That's because my versions made it so that there's some truth to the lies, because i find that more interesting.

Well obviously you don't hate them enough.

[Lys]

They're Sorcerous Eastern-European Vampire-Lords without the Necroscope body horror aspect, not only do i not hate them, they're my favourite kind of Tzimisce.

[Cynical Cat]

They're Sorcerous Eastern-European Vampire-Lords without the Necroscope body horror aspect, not only do i not hate them, they're my favourite kind of Tzimisce.

You don't choose between being Sorcerous Eastern-European Vampire Lords and being Necroscope body horror Lords of the Night, you take both. BOTH!

Come on Lys, get with the program.