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Here's the news.

Google has expressed concerns over the search field in Microsoft's upcoming Internet Explorer 7 web browser, whose Beta 2 release became publicly available last week. Because the search field defaults to using Microsoft's own MSN Search, Google says, it allows Microsoft to "unfairly grab Web traffic and advertising dollars from its competitors." Google supports this statement by saying that search fields in browsers like Mozilla Firefox, Apple's Safari, and Opera—which all default to Google—account for 30-50% of user searches. A study sponsored by Google also found that only a third of users were able to set up Internet Explorer 7 to use a search provider other than MSN. According to Google, the best way to circumvent this problem would be to make IE7 ask the user to key in or choose their favorite search engine from a list when the browser is first run.

In response to this suggestion, Microsoft says asking user input could "add complexity and confusion to the browser set-up process," and that offering a list of choices would be "arbitrarily limiting." Microsoft adds that "people seem to be doing OK" with the browser's current approach to changing search providers, which lets users choose from six search engines and 16 "topic searches" when they click on the arrow next to the browser's magnifying glass icon and select "Find More Providers..." Not content with Microsoft's implementation, Google has already contacted antitrust authorities in the US and Europe. System integrators will have the ability to change search providers when pre-loading Windows Vista onto their machines next year, and Microsoft expects this option to result in search companies "bidding aggressively in that space."

To be fair, a lot of red herring have been thrown in TR message board, but I believe the main issue is not about IE7 defaulting the search engine to MSN; it is actually about IE7 does not allow users to change its default search engine to anything but MSN (or at least, making it difficult for the user to do so).

If that's the case, this is a clear case of Microsoft yet again using unfair leverage to gain marketshare in a different market; the very same thing they had been verdicted guilty in the year 2000 (The US vs Microsoft trial).

Moreover, if that's the case, then actually it is much worse than the previous case above, because by keeping the search engine choice hard-wired to the browser (as opposed to configurable by the users), MS can blackmail or strongarm search engine companies, on the basis that MS will not put a search engine in the browser's list of choices if the search engine company refuse to conform.

But on the good side, who wants to use the shitty IE anyway? When I want speed, I use Firefox. When I want security, I use Opera. When I want neither, then I use IE.


By the way.....

In response to this suggestion, Microsoft says asking user input could "add complexity and confusion to the browser set-up process," and that offering a list of choices would be "arbitrarily limiting."

So.... Microsoft.

Well couldn't Microsoft say the same thing about Opera or Firefox, both of which come default with Google search bars but don't default to MSN? Firefox defaults to a google search for its homepage on install. So isn't is a similar thing? Google, using Opera, Firefox, etc, had unfair market leverage because most open source or private venture browsers don't want to use something other then google and thus don't include the functionality into the browser to change it?

Don't get me wrong, i hate microsoft with a passion, but lately google seems to be growing by leaps and bounds and i'm not sure that it's quite aware of its own actions at times.

B4UTRUST wrote:Well couldn't Microsoft say the same thing about Opera or Firefox, both of which come default with Google search bars but don't default to MSN?

See, that's my whole point: the thing is not about which search engine being defaulted to the search bar; the thing is that whether the user is allowed to change the default search engine themselves.

If Microsoft really hardwires the default search engine (MSN), or even the selectable search engines, into their search bar, then it is really a bad thing, and I believe this is yet another case of M$ using unfair leverage as they always do.

well opera does the same thing...

you can search many things, ebay, google, amazon, download.com, etc...

but as far as i'm aware you can't change the searches.

Not sure about firefox, don't use it enough at home and only use it briefly at work so i can't state either way i just know it default searches google.

A study sponsored by Google also found that only a third of users were able to set up Internet Explorer 7 to use a search provider other than MSN. According to Google, the best way to circumvent this problem would be to make IE7 ask the user to key in or choose their favorite search engine from a list when the browser is first run.
In response to this suggestion, Microsoft says asking user input could "add complexity and confusion to the browser set-up process," and that offering a list of choices would be "arbitrarily limiting."

I agree with Microsoft here. When a user sees a dialog box, care to guess what they do with it most the time? Click ok or next or whatever it takes to make it go away without even reading it (hence why so many stupid viruses are successful too). By arbirtraly limiting they mean they don't want to be the ones to endorce any one search company over another. With MSN, they are safe, they own it. With other engines, they risk cries of unfairness from the companies left out.

At the same time, I also see Google's point here: since the users just want it to go away, they will usally choose the default, and whatever the default is is going to get a pretty big boost in traffic.

But still, I think Microsoft has the right to default to what they think is best. If the user wants to change it, there is nothing stopping them except their own willful ignorance, which is not Microsoft's problem.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: If that's the case, this is a clear case of Microsoft yet again using unfair leverage to gain marketshare in a different market; the very same thing they had been verdicted guilty in the year 2000 (The US vs Microsoft trial).

Possibly, but I do see a legitimate defense for Microsoft here. Of course, one might have argued the same thing with the Netscape debacle.

Adding a selection box, with no default selected, when the browser first starts up will probably be the best thing to do as I think about it more. But it still isn't ideal for user friendliness, and still 'arbitrarly limits' choices.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: But on the good side, who wants to use the shitty IE anyway? When I want speed, I use Firefox. When I want security, I use Opera. When I want neither, then I use IE.

IE is much, much faster on older machines and has a smaller memory footprint than Firefox and Opera. IE is also required for some websites to work (though IMO these sites arent worth the toruble anyways). I also prefer IE's user interface on Windows to either Opera or Firefox.

IE also makes a decent FTP client. Firefox doesn't, and I don't know about Opera.

IE's security, when used competently, is also not that bad.

It really is a decent browser that gets the job done, and getting the job done is what the average user cares about.

And IE7 seems to be taking lots of good ideas and implementing them, like tabbed browsing. From what I have seen of it, it really is pretty decent.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

In response to this suggestion, Microsoft says asking user input could "add complexity and confusion to the browser set-up process," and that offering a list of choices would be "arbitrarily limiting."

So.... Microsoft.

You and I often think like advanced users, because we are, and forget about how the regular users think.

Regular users don't like choice, they want it to just work out of the box. Asking for information from the user is seen as a hassle, and people don't like that.

Destructionator XV wrote:If the user wants to change it, there is nothing stopping them except their own willful ignorance, which is not Microsoft's problem.

We haven't seen the final version of IE7, but my impression is that user is unable to change the default search engine being used for the search bar, nor can user change the other, selectable search engines. So my impression is that those things are hard wired, at least to some degree.

In fact, it seems that Microsoft has planned that only System Builder can pre-define the selectable search engines (aside MSN as the default search engine). And like I said, this could be the basis of Microsoft strongarming search engine companies (not only Google) in favor of MSN, and this is not a fair business practice IMO.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:We haven't seen the final version of IE7, but my impression is that user is unable to change the default search engine being used for the search bar, nor can user change the other, selectable search engines. So my impression is that those things are hard wired, at least to some degree.

From the article:

Microsoft adds that "people seem to be doing OK" with the browser's current approach to changing search providers, which lets users choose from six search engines and 16 "topic searches" when they click on the arrow next to the browser's magnifying glass icon and select "Find More Providers..."

So they can obviously change it. Now, let's compare it to what firefox does.

It defaults to google, and also does not offer a dialog upon startup to allow me to choose my own. I have to click a little down arrow, which then provides a list of 6 options, only 2 of which are actual search engines (yahoo and google). If I don't like the 2 they offer me, I can click add engines, also under the menu for the arrow, which brings me to mozilla's slooow website (I found the load time unacceptable and would have canceled if I didn't want to comment on it) which gives a list of more, but still of thier choosing.

It looks to me like Microsoft is making a bigger effort than Firefox to give me options!

But I haven't acually used IE7 yet, as it doesn't install on Linux. Perhaps tomorrow I will load it up in my emulator and try it myself.

In fact, it seems that Microsoft has planned that only System Builder can pre-define the selectable search engines (aside MSN as the default search engine). And like I said, this could be the basis of Microsoft strongarming search engine companies (not only Google) in favor of MSN, and this is not a fair business practice IMO.

I don't see this, if it is true, to be any worse than Firefox defaulting to google and making me go through a hassle to see the list, a list that I cannot add new engines to myself.

Destructionator XV wrote:

Microsoft adds that "people seem to be doing OK" with the browser's current approach to changing search providers, which lets users choose from six search engines and 16 "topic searches" when they click on the arrow next to the browser's magnifying glass icon and select "Find More Providers..."

So they can obviously change it. Now, let's compare it to what firefox does.

It defaults to google, and also does not offer a dialog upon startup to allow me to choose my own. I have to click a little down arrow, which then provides a list of 6 options, only 2 of which are actual search engines (yahoo and google). If I don't like the 2 they offer me, I can click add engines, also under the menu for the arrow, which brings me to mozilla's slooow website (I found the load time unacceptable and would have canceled if I didn't want to comment on it) which gives a list of more, but still of thier choosing.

A little bit nitpick, but while I've never tried IE7 myself, my impression is that they're hardwired selection instead of user-defined. While FF still allows you to define your own search engine (albeit the 'add engine' process is tedious indeed), I doubt if IE has such feature, or at least it may be harder to use than Firefox.

Moreover, it's been implied that only System Builders will be able to define their own search engine, not end user. The goal is, of course, to make search engine provider "bidding aggressively for that space", as MS had expected.

While I see no problem of it in itself, remember that MS also has a search engine of its own; the MSN, that is. And remember that such way will enable MS to strongarm other search engine providers in favor of MSN.

Yes, in the short run, it seems that IE7 gives us more selection than FF, but in the long run, if MSN dominates the search engine market like it dominated browser market after killing off Netscape, we the consumers will eventually lose.

Destructionator XV wrote:But I haven't acually used IE7 yet, as it doesn't install on Linux. Perhaps tomorrow I will load it up in my emulator and try it myself.

I won't bother installing a beta version of IE7 on my Windows, since Windows tend to rot after many attempts of installing/uninstalling, but I'd be really interested whether IE7 would allow end user to define their own search engine (as opposed to hardwired-only selection). And if that's the case (although I doubt it), how difficult it is compared to the one offered by FF? When you finished trying, please let me know, would ya?

Destructionator XV wrote:I don't see this, if it is true, to be any worse than Firefox defaulting to google and making me go through a hassle to see the list, a list that I cannot add new engines to myself.

But the difference is that, unlike the case of IE and MSN, Firefox doesn't own Google (or the other way around.) There are reasons why certain business integration (horizontal or vertical) can be considered unfair business practice, and thus illegal.

In fact, the case is fairly similar to the 'US vs Microsoft' trial, where MS had been verdicted guilty:
- Microsoft used its OS (Win98) as leverage to unfairly compete with Netscape in browser market.
- Now, Microsoft uses its browser (IE) as leverage to unfairly compete with Google in search engine market.

I know it takes more than such comparison to verdict MS guilty as well in this case, but the pattern is quite disturbing indeed.

I'm sorry, I don't see what the big deal is.

To be fair, a lot of red herring have been thrown in TR message board, but I believe the main issue is not about IE7 defaulting the search engine to MSN; it is actually about IE7 does not allow users to change its default search engine to anything but MSN (or at least, making it difficult for the user to do so).

Open IE7, click search tab, select google.
Done? Three clicks.

See, that's my whole point: the thing is not about which search engine being defaulted to the search bar; the thing is that whether the user is allowed to change the default search engine themselves.

If Microsoft really hardwires the default search engine (MSN), or even the selectable search engines, into their search bar, then it is really a bad thing, and I believe this is yet another case of M$ using unfair leverage as they always do.

Flat wrong. In IE7 it's incredibly easy to change default search, far easier then either Firefox or Opera.

Edit:Its even easier then I thought, theres a damn button that leads you to a search engine listing,that has every single search engine I've heard of and a few I havn't. It also includes Amazon,Ebay, and the like.

Edit2: The fucking thing has a Wikipedia search engine and lets you add your own search engines using simple scripts.

IE7 puts the browser market in an intresting position. It completly pwns Opera and Firefox in nearly all aspects except some tab management.

Ace Pace wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see what the big deal is.
Open IE7, click search tab, select google.
Done? Three clicks.

Can you define a search engine your own? Or did you have to choose it from a set of pre-defined, hardwired selection?


This is the thing I actually worry about:

System integrators will have the ability to change search providers when pre-loading Windows Vista onto their machines next year, and Microsoft expects this option to result in search companies "bidding aggressively in that space."

The news above seems to indicate that the search engines you can select are hardwired, and users will be unable to modify it (at least to some degree). Otherwise, why search companies should ever bid aggresively if user can add new search engine to the list with ease?

Here's an example: now you can change the default search engine to Wiki. And then, sometime in the future, MS want to acquire Wiki, but Wiki resists. Suddenly in the next Windows update, Wiki just merely disappears from the list of search engines you can use, because MS retaliates. And of course, there'll be no way you can add Wiki again because the system refuses it.

Such thing could also happen to a search engine that MS views as major competitor to MSN. Yes, now you can select Google from the list, and even make it the default search engine. But who knows in the future, you cannot simply use Google anymore, let alone making it the default, because MS change its policy?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Can you define a search engine your own? Or did you have to choose it from a set of pre-defined, hardwired selection?

Let me try to explain using screenshots.

Image one. IE7 Opened.



Image two. The basic search toolbar, notice that google is one of the default search browsers provided.



Image three. The Search engine selection dialogue. Very simple, alot simpler then Firefox or anything else I've seen.



Image Four. The search engine addition. It's its own webpage, notice the selection.



Yes KAN, you can worry, thats its own webpage, that Microsoft can edit at will...But whats this, at the bottom?

Do you own a site?
Promote your favorite search engines (including your own, if you have one) on your site with Internet Explorer 7! All you need is to run the following script on your page: window.external.AddSearchProvider(‘URL’) Where ‘URL’ points to an OpenSearch description document, which will tell Internet Explorer 7 how to add the search engine to the browser.

Apprently, you can add your own search engines!