The Multi-Cultural Society and Its Enemies

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

KAN you have been implying he was a racist from your first post. It's damn hypocritcal of you to whine about agruement twisting now.

See my reply to your post: I disagree that crimes are something can be attributed to culture instead of other social problems.

EDIT: besides, nobobdy has been talking about race: we've been talking about culture.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

However even on a grand scale the same still applies:

In 1955 West (America and Britain mainly) saw Iran (the pretty girl) and said "Damn I want that oil" ("Ooo I'd like to tap that") but Iran nationalized foreign oil (slapped you in the face) and the West helped overthrow Mossadegh and install a dictator (slapped the girl around). Now personally I think this is one of the most shameful incidents in recent western history...

In 2007 the West sees Venezuela, says "Damn I want that oil," but Chavez is nationalizing the industries... now overthrowing him and installing a friendly dictator would be almost as easy as overthrowing Mossadegh, and yet they don't do that...

Evidences that it is more about cultural differences instead of other, more pragmatic reasons like cost-benefit ratio, risks, opportunities, and mutual interests? And of course, the same goes for individuals.

If you insists with "cultural differences motives", then why the Saudis haven't been toppled?

[Norseman]

The reason is that Multi-Culturalism is inherently flawed, it literally cannot work. The Multi-Culturalists cannot accept this, because it goes against their dislike of nationalism, and their belief that human behaviour is primarily dictated by economic concern.

The reaction people have when they see that something is wrong depends on Culture, and on the political system of the nation involved.

and:

and I notice that you conveniently ignored the fact that I then went into a discussion about Scandinavian voting patterns...

They hear about people who are beaten up and robbed, they have to lock their doors, they are afraid to walk in their own towns.

First, I don't believe that crime is a cultural thing: it is more a social and economic problems that needs to be solved. Second, I would have funded this can be offensive --linking criminal behavior with cultural values of certain ethnic groups, instead of other factors like low education or poverty.

Imagine if we said that the criminal behavior of Mexican immigrants is due to their culture instead of other social problems like poverty and low education --see what I mean?

In Norway an unemployed adult who has never held down a job in his or her life will after taxes have $16 000 - $17 000 in unemployment benefits. This is not counting government stipends for children, additional money if you have a medical problem, free housing etc etc.

Immigrants are given free education and job training, free language training, free schooling of whatever kind they desire.

The rest of the Scandinavian states have similarly generous welfare systems.

So no I don't see what you mean... a Mexican immigrant might need to steal or rob or what not to have the money, you could make that argument. However in Scandinavia you get welfare benefits that you wouldn't believe!

Moreover it gets even worse when you consider that there are several ethnic groups that are integrating nicely, and many of them come from poor societies! Yet they cause far less problems, why is that?

EDIT: Let me also add that Scandinavia is one of the most egalitarian areas in the world, with the smallest difference between rich and poor: Base Place to Live in the World.

[Norseman]

If you insists with "cultural differences motives", then why the Saudis haven't been toppled?

Changing the goal posts again! Cultural differences cause friction yes, and damn there is friction!

The bulk of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals! Osama bin Laden is a Saudi national! They're bankrolling several of the nuttiest Islamic movements in history (and that is saying something)!

So why hasn't the west removed the Saudis? Because it'd be unacceptable according to our culture. See the conflict comes when two cultures come in contact with another, the level of conflict depends on the difference between the cultures, and the worst behaviour that each culture will condone.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

If you insists with "cultural differences motives", then why the Saudis haven't been toppled?

Changing the goal posts again! Cultural differences cause friction yes, and damn there is friction!

The bulk of the 9/11 terrorists were Saudi nationals! Osama bin Laden is a Saudi national! They're bankrolling several of the nuttiest Islamic movements in history (and that is saying something)!

So why hasn't the west removed the Saudis? Because it'd be unacceptable according to our culture.

The west hasn't removed the Saudis because it is unacceptable according to the culture, but it's acceptable to remove Mossadeq?

See the conflict comes when two cultures come in contact with another,

Replace the word 'cultures' with 'interest groups' and you'll be correct.

[Norseman]

The west hasn't removed the Saudis because it is unacceptable according to the culture, but it's acceptable to remove Mossadeq?

If Mossadegh had come to power today it would not have been acceptable to remove him! I mean I used Mossadegh to demonstrate how cultural values affect human behaviour, and our cultures have changed a lot since the 1950s!

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The west hasn't removed the Saudis because it is unacceptable according to the culture, but it's acceptable to remove Mossadeq?

If Mossadegh had come to power today it would not have been acceptable to remove him! I mean I used Mossadegh to demonstrate how cultural values affect human behaviour, and our cultures have changed a lot since the 1950s!

So.... Mossadeq was toppled while the Saudis aren't, simply because of cultural change? But how do you explain Saddam, then?

[Norseman]

The west hasn't removed the Saudis because it is unacceptable according to the culture, but it's acceptable to remove Mossadeq?

If Mossadegh had come to power today it would not have been acceptable to remove him! I mean I used Mossadegh to demonstrate how cultural values affect human behaviour, and our cultures have changed a lot since the 1950s!

So.... Mossadeq was toppled while the Saudis aren't, simply because of cultural change? But how do you explain Saddam, then?

1991: Saddam invades Kuwait and has a bunch of sanctions placed on him, sanctions he does his best to work around.

9/11: World Trade Center

Everyone thinks Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, there's evidence that he's been looking for radioactive material, there's clues that he's linked to terrorist groups, and he's obviously violating those UN resolutions. Note even if you disagree in hindsight at the time those arguments seemed reasonably sound.

Even with all of that it wasn't easy to build a coalition to take down Saddam Hussein, and it turned into a circus afterwards.

In short this is not an experience that any politician will want to repeat, this is not something any democratic country will want to go through again.

In the past (50-60 years ago) few attempts if any would be made to create a democracy, there'd be far fewer scrouples to working with local strongmen, and pulling out after a friendly dictator had been established would be acceptable.

In the far past (100+ years ago) playing one faction against the other and colonizing the place would have been perfectly acceptable. Killing thousands of natives to cow the rest... fine... Bribing helpful chieftains while fighting unhelpful ones, untill the defiant ones find themselves broke and being attrited to pieces... wonderful.

The Saudis' for all their being bastards haven't been openly provocative, haven't invaded anything, the oil spigots are open, they kiss ass, they hire PR men, and they don't openly support terrorism. Osama bin Laden was forced to flee after all.

Culture and national interest both combine to preserve their rule.

[frigidmagi]

So old Malasyia is your idea of a working multicultrual paradise? How does this hit you?

BBC

Abandoning Islam for Christianity is such a sensitive issue in Malaysia that many converts find themselves leading a secret, double life.

Malay-Muslims make up 60% of the country's population
"If people know that I've converted to Christianity, they might take the law into their own hands. If they are not broadminded, they might take a stone and throw it at me."

Maria - not her real name - is a young Malaysian woman who has lived a secret and sometimes fearful life since she converted from Islam to Christianity.

Apostasy, as it is known, has become one of the most controversial issues in Malaysia today.

Maria became a Christian over a decade ago when she was 18. She says no-one forced her to convert, that she made the decision after studying different religious texts.

If my family find out I am no longer a Muslim they will completely cut me off

Conversion is deemed so sensitive in Malaysia that even the priest who baptised her refused to give her a baptismal certificate.

And, even now, the church she attends asked her to sign a declaration stating the church is not responsible for her conversion.

"My church says if the authorities come, they are not going to stand up for me. I have to stand up for myself," she said. Not even Maria's family know she has converted.

"If my family find out I am no longer a Muslim they will completely cut me off. That means my name in the family will be erased.

"I could migrate, but the problem is I want to stay in Malaysia, because this is my country. And I love my family. I just want to live peacefully."

Heated debate

Malay-Muslims make up 60% of Malaysia's population. The rest are mostly Christians, Hindus and Buddhists.

But many Malaysian Muslims believe that people like Maria pose a threat to Islam.

And the debate between those who say Maria should have the right to officially convert, and those who are against apostasy has become so heated that the prime minister has asked both sides not to discuss sensitive religious questions in public.
If the authorities find out, I will be in big trouble

Fearful of what could happen, Maria would only talk to us on the phone from the privacy of her car.

She is very aware of the possible consequences of her decision to become a Christian if she is discovered.

"If the authorities find out, I will be in big trouble. They will create hell between me and my family, and hell in my life so that I will no longer get any privileges or employment." Her fears are not unfounded. Another convert - Lina Joy - has been forced to go into hiding since her case went to court.
And at least one of the lawyers involved in that case has had a death threat against him.

Apostasy order


An apostasy order has to be granted for docmentation to change
Both Lina Joy and Maria want to make their conversion legal.

That means changing the identity cards that state they are Muslim.

Until now, the state has refused to do this until an apostasy order is granted from the Sharia court.

But both women claim they are no longer Muslim, so why should they go to the Sharia court?

For Maria there is a lot at stake. She has a boyfriend who is also a Christian and knows she is too.

The couple want to get married. But while Maria is still officially a Muslim, the only way they could wed in Malaysia would be if he converted to Islam.

And Maria's family - unhappy with her choice of partner - are pressuring him to do just that.

Crucial time

Maria is tired of living a double life.

"It's very frustrating," she tells us tearfully. "It means I have to limit my scope with friends.

"I have to be able to completely trust someone before I dare to reveal myself.

"I know some other secret converts, but I never keep in touch with them.

"I can't let my network widen, because you don't always know who you are dealing with."

I feel that I am all alone in this struggle

Maria
Only a tiny number of people have converted from Islam in Malaysia.

But the coming months will be crucial for them because a decision is expected in the case of Lina Joy.

The outcome of that case may well determine whether Maria will be able to live the life she dreams of - to be married to her boyfriend and live openly as a Christian.

Right now she can't imagine it.

"I feel that I am all alone in this struggle," she says, "and I am frightened because I am alone against the odds."

What about that Lina Joy?

Sydneyanglicans

Under Kamariah’s* photo on her Malaysian identification card is her ethnicity. Right under that her gender, and to the left: Islam. But the 28-year-old woman with the angular eyeglasses and the broad smile is Christian. She belongs to the largest ethnic group in Malaysia—the Malays. According to the official census, Malays number 65 per cent of the population. In Malaysia, Kamariah says, a Malay is a Muslim by definition. “A Malay is a Muslim. Full stop,â€