LibriumArcana.Games

Posted: **Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:07 pm**

WASHINGTON, (AFP) -
CIA agents have revealed details of six interrogation tactics approved by top brass for use at secret CIA jails in Asia and Eastern Europe, ABC News reported.
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The techniques have lead to questionable confessions and the death of one man since March 2002, the network said, after interviewing current and former CIA officials.

Former CIA officer Bob Baer told ABC the techniques amounted to "bad interrogation. I mean, you can get anyone to confess to anything if the torture's bad enough."

CIA sources speaking on condition of anonymity described six techniques: "Attention Grab, Attention Slap, Belly Slap, Long Time Standing, Cold Cell, Water Boarding."

The six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques," as sources called them, were used on a dozen top Al-Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe, ABC said.

In "Belly Slap," interrogators deliver "a hard open-handed slap to the stomach" intended to cause pain but not internal injury.

In "Long Time Standing," prisoners are forced to stand handcuffed and shackled for more than 40 hours.

In "The Cold Cell" a prisoner is made to stand naked in a cell kept near 10 degrees C (50 degrees F) and is continually doused with cold water.

Water Boarding brings results within seconds, the sources said. A prisoner is tied onto a board with his feet higher than his head, and his face is wrapped in cellophane. When water is poured over him, he begins to gag and begs to confess, sources told ABC.

"The person believes they are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law," John Sifton of Human Rights Watch told ABC.

After investigating the claims, the network asked CIA officials for comment, but they "would neither confirm nor deny the accounts. They simply declined to comment," ABC said.

Earlier this month, CIA inspector general John Helgerson said techniques used by the agency appeared to violate the international Convention Against Torture, according to current and former officials who described the report to The New York Times.

The report listed 10 techniques authorized in early 2002 that went beyond those used by the US military on prisoners of war.

Posted: **Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:11 pm**

My god...

What the fuck is going on these days? First Abu Ghraib, and now this. I thought we were better than this. I really did...
- Ra

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:41 am**

I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:04 am**

The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.

Yes, because they wouldm't be suspects unless they were guilty.

Posted: **Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:56 am**

The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.

1: innocent until proven guilty
2: There are a few things which separate us from them. One of them is torture.
3: Torture never yields useful information anyway.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:15 am**

Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.
Yes, because they wouldm't be suspects unless they were guilty.

I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they know a lot more than we hear about.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:20 am**

The Cleric wrote:
Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.
Yes, because they wouldm't be suspects unless they were guilty.
I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they know a lot more than we hear about.

That's nice. We should just shoot Stofsk now, because we should give the government the benefit of the doubt.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:23 am**

Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they know a lot more than we hear about.
That's nice. We should just shoot Stofsk now, because we should give the government the benefit of the doubt.

I'm willing to hold judgement until I hear the governments side of the story.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:26 am**

The Cleric wrote:
Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I'm willing to give the government the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure they know a lot more than we hear about.
That's nice. We should just shoot Stofsk now, because we should give the government the benefit of the doubt.
I'm willing to hold judgement until I hear the governments side of the story.

We have. They think he's guilty. If you trust the government to arrest and torture all the right people outside the country, why don't you trust them to do it inside the country? Why should we have trials if we can trust the government to torture and kill people without them?

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:29 am**

Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote: I'm willing to hold judgement until I hear the governments side of the story.

We have. They think he's guilty. If you trust the government to arrest and torture all the right people outside the country, why don't you trust them to do it inside the country? Why should we have trials if we can trust the government to torture and kill people without them?

Becasue I'm a heartless and cold bastard, and like to make fallacious statements and not really back them up. And becasue I really just hate people. That answer your question?

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:40 am**

that's really disapointing.

*puts another nail in the coffin*

ya know the gov'ts askin for it....

and sooner or later... we're gonna get what's comin to it...

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:07 am**

The Cleric wrote:
Cynical Cat wrote:
The Cleric wrote: I'm willing to hold judgement until I hear the governments side of the story.

We have. They think he's guilty. If you trust the government to arrest and torture all the right people outside the country, why don't you trust them to do it inside the country? Why should we have trials if we can trust the government to torture and kill people without them?
Becasue I'm a heartless and cold bastard, and like to make fallacious statements and not really back them up. And becasue I really just hate people. That answer your question?

At least you are honest

Frankly,though... No government is ever justified in using torture. It does not work you dont get useful information, and it is morally repugnant to do...

The governments side of the story is completely and utterly irrelevant

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:29 am**

I'm curious, actually. Where does this "torture does not reveal useful information" bit come from? Seems a bit sudden and I've yet to see justification for it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:47 am**

Hotfoot wrote:I'm curious, actually. Where does this "torture does not reveal useful information" bit come from? Seems a bit sudden and I've yet to see justification for it.

It tends to come from people that have worked in Intelligence. I can point out a number of people from Supatra on HCAP, to Stuart Slade, to ex-CIA(or DIA or OSS or KGB) talking heads that will tell you that it's at best an extremely unreliable method of extracting information. The root of it is that excessively coercive measures tend to produce what they think you want to hear; if they don't know anything or not enough that means bogus information.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:52 am**

Alyrium, I'd take any reports of specific torture practices, especially anything this detailed, with a grain of salt. There have been a number of these allegations that have proven to be false, severly overstated, or just plain old hysterics. Anonymous sources are right up their with "my friend's college roomates former lover said...." for accuracy. While there is no question bad things have and probably are being done, this sounds more like BS to me than genuine fact.

Posted: **Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:55 am**

Comrade, if you were innocent, why would you be charged?

Now, if you do not confess to being a wizard, we will place more stones on your chest, until you die.

There are so many eras where this sort of thing went down. And yet, people always consent to it. How ridiculous we are, as a species.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:35 pm**

The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.

I feel the same way.

2 points

A.) Propaganda anyone? Half the fucked up news we get has a humanitarian spin on it or so so seaverly one-sided it's disgusting. We don't know a quarter of what we want to believe we do. It's sad really.

B.) Does anyone honestly, truly believe that if the coin were flipped, that these people that are being "so wronged" (for killing other humans), would really sit our peole down to talk over a cup of tea?

I think not.....

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:56 pm**

Rukia wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.
I feel the same way.

2 points

A.) Propaganda anyone? Half the fucked up news we get has a humanitarian spin on it or so so seaverly one-sided it's disgusting. We don't know a quarter of what we want to believe we do. It's sad really.

B.) Does anyone honestly, truly believe that if the coin were flipped, that these people that are being "so wronged" (for killing other humans), would really sit our peole down to talk over a cup of tea?

I think not.....

Let's be honest here, some of them may be wrongly imprisoned. But the vast majority are with out question religious nutjobs that dearly want to hurt us. These are not a pack of Ghandi wanna-bes, they're stone cold killers. Only the truly deluded can deny they're a nasty pack of human garbage.

Before we got too emotive, we ought to keep a little perspective both ways.

Torture is non-productive for the most part. We shouldn't be opting to it as a matter of course; from both a humanitarian course or a practical one. We don't need to abuse human rights and using it as anything like a first resort is hideous and does unnecessary damage.

I'm not saying don't use it in a doomsday scenario but it's absolutely not needed as a routine measure.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:50 pm**

Lord Stormbringer wrote:
Rukia wrote:
The Cleric wrote:I find it difficult to have much sympathy for the subjects. Don't do bad shit, and it won't come back to bite you in the ass.
I feel the same way.

2 points

A.) Propaganda anyone? Half the fucked up news we get has a humanitarian spin on it or so so seaverly one-sided it's disgusting. We don't know a quarter of what we want to believe we do. It's sad really.

B.) Does anyone honestly, truly believe that if the coin were flipped, that these people that are being "so wronged" (for killing other humans), would really sit our peole down to talk over a cup of tea?

I think not.....
Let's be honest here, some of them may be wrongly imprisoned. But the vast majority are with out question religious nutjobs that dearly want to hurt us. These are not a pack of Ghandi wanna-bes, they're stone cold killers. Only the truly deluded can deny they're a nasty pack of human garbage.

Before we got too emotive, we ought to keep a little perspective both ways.

Torture is non-productive for the most part. We shouldn't be opting to it as a matter of course; from both a humanitarian course or a practical one. We don't need to abuse human rights and using it as anything like a first resort is hideous and does unnecessary damage.

I'm not saying don't use it in a doomsday scenario but it's absolutely not needed as a routine measure.

Thank you for not bashing me.

I want to make it clear that I in no way condone torture. And I believe that, as you pointed out, that some of the prisoners may be innocent. I'm just saying it seems to me that they are being winey little babies. Crying out to the humanitarians for support. A slap in the stomach seems a ridicualus to complain about. Now some of the more severe forms can be omitted. There are other psychological tactics that can be used.

We don't need to abuse human rights and using it as anything like a first resort is hideous and does unnecessary damage.

I'm sure that this was not used as a first resort and we need to give the officers more credit. They are human too and feel the same way. But as I said, we live in a very ardent society that believes that everyone has good in them. Which unfortunately is not the case. But even still, as soon as we hear wind of someone illegedly being abuse or tortured we make sure that thoes who commited the heinous act are outed and delt with. Not taking in to consdieraton the act of the one who was supoesedly being tortured.

I also think that it might be the case that it never happened at all. Or maybe not to the extent of what we're being told.

*shrugs*

On a completely different note.. can anyone tell me why I'm not able to access my PM's? Or tell me who to talk to? Thanks in advance

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:20 pm**

I want to make it clear that I in no way condone torture. And I believe that, as you pointed out, that some of the prisoners may be innocent. I'm just saying it seems to me that they are being winey little babies. Crying out to the humanitarians for support. A slap in the stomach seems a ridicualus to complain about. Now some of the more severe forms can be omitted. There are other psychological tactics that can be used.

Frankly, once you allow physical violence against a prisoner it becomes very hard to set a clear line and enforce standards which prevent escalation. Therefore I think we should consider that equally not allowed (but not necessarily an equal violation). The fact that juvenile stunts like panties on the head and parading prisoners naked also took place along side practices which lead to death and maiming. That alone tells me that little acts like that can easily escalate.

I'm a little more lenient in my regard for psyhcological games (like the infamous koran flushing or topless women in their interogation cell) but those too need to be kept in check.

I'm sure that this was not used as a first resort and we need to give the officers more credit. They are human too and feel the same way.

I have a very high regard for our servicemen and women. But the reports we're getting suggest that we are indeed used as a regular method and is an accepted part of routine. To me that is dangerous moral ground.

As for the virtue of humanity, I submit to you the Spanish Inquisition, the Papal Inquisition, secular witch-hunting, the Holocaust, the reign of Joseph Stalin, the Rape of Nanking, and of course pretty much any third world country. Torture, brutality, murder, and other acts most foul were a routine matter of business; it was not leering monsters that carried those out. It was normal people, most of which didn't really feel that guilty.

Torture can happen here and we can resort to it as easily as any nation and as any person.

But even still, as soon as we hear wind of someone illegedly being abuse or tortured we make sure that thoes who commited the heinous act are outed and delt with. Not taking in to consdieraton the act of the one who was supoesedly being tortured.

Which is noble but it doesn't change the fact that it has happened, people have lost their lives, and we have blackened our nation's reputation in international eyes. I care less about the last but we shouldn't throw our good name away needlessly.

And of course, as things stand it seems quite likely that the only people punished were a few unfortunate scapegoats for a policy of torture. When officers (and ex-officers) are alleging that it came from high up, maybe even the absolute top, I doubt a few PFCs and some NCOs is the extent of it.

I also think that it might be the case that it never happened at all. Or maybe not to the extent of what we're being told.

Things have been exagerated, with out a doubt. But there's also plenty of shameful, brutal things that haven't been told. There are more credible allegations than have been adequately addressed which leads me to believe there is more going on, not less.

Posted: **Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:08 pm**

And I also want to point out, aside from the water board, the other one's are hardly massively inhumane. Sure they suck, but it's not like they're anything to make someone cringe.

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:07 am**

The Cleric wrote:And I also want to point out, aside from the water board, the other one's are hardly massively inhumane. Sure they suck, but it's not like they're anything to make someone cringe.

Of course it's not cringeworthy. It's because they've been condensed down to pathetic little sound bytes that offer nothing of the reality. That's just a great way to ignore the violent, vicious reality of it.

In "Belly Slap," interrogators deliver "a hard open-handed slap to the stomach" intended to cause pain but not internal injury.

Hitting suspects in shackles, and hoping not to do permanent injury. Bloody brilliant plan there. Note they say intended, not doesn't. If you've got a soldier belting some one it's incredibly easy for it to cross the line.

And let's face it, beating them to cause pain is the classic definition of torture!

In "Long Time Standing," prisoners are forced to stand handcuffed and shackled for more than 40 hours.

Forcing some one to stand, presumably in a restrained position and with out sleep for two days? I would call that brutal and any little slip on the prisoner's part could dislocate joints, break bones, or worse. When it was used on our guys in the Hanoi Hilton and other Vietnamese camps it was sure cringeworthy and we certainly call it torture.

In "The Cold Cell" a prisoner is made to stand naked in a cell kept near 10 degrees C (50 degrees F) and is continually doused with cold water.

Hypothermia, frost bite, major traumatic shock to the system. Yeah, that's pretty damn nasty. You know who practiced things like this. Mengele. Granted he took it a lot farther. But this is still damn hard on the system and stands a pretty good chance of hurting or killing some one.

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:12 am**

I'd like to know more details. Like are the prisoners kept from any permanant injury, or just left to do whatever? And when are these being used? Last resort, on firmly identified suspects? We don't know hardly anything about the details, other than a attention-grab flash description.

Posted: **Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:33 am**

Completely irrelevant. The whole point of being morally superior is that we are in fact, morally superior.

Forcing some one to stand, presumably in a restrained position and with out sleep for two days? I would call that brutal and any little slip on the prisoner's part could dislocate joints, break bones, or worse. When it was used on our guys in the Hanoi Hilton and other Vietnamese camps it was sure cringeworthy and we certainly call it torture.

One prisoner died from this tactic last year. Eventually the prisoner becomes too tired to stand. And they start to slip downward. They are restrained, hands behind their backs, their hands tied to an object.

When they start to sit/fall, this has the effect of crucifixion, making it difficult to breath. The prisoner can suffocate.

Hypothermia, frost bite, major traumatic shock to the system. Yeah, that's pretty damn nasty. You know who practiced things like this. Mengele. Granted he took it a lot farther. But this is still damn hard on the system and stands a pretty good chance of hurting or killing some one.

I am comfortable in -10 F. However, heat escapes your body many times faster with moving water than with moving air. Which is why a swimming pool at 50 degrees feels so much colder than the air at 5 degrees.

A person can get hypothemia and die in ARIZONA if they get wet in the 70 degree winter with a stiff breeze.

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2005 9:45 pm**

Comrade Tortoise wrote: A person can get hypothemia and die in ARIZONA if they get wet in the 70 degree winter with a stiff breeze.

In actuality, sometimes there doesn't even have to be a stiff breeze. Any temperature + water can equal death from exposure, especially in high-altitude areas.

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