Ukraine president talks to Putin, Merkel, Hollande

[frigidmagi]

Washington Post

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko tried to keep his peace plan to settle the conflict with pro-Russian separatists on track in a four-way phone call Sunday with Russian President Vladimir Putin and the leaders of France and Germany.

The two-hour conversation came ahead of a Monday deadline that European Union leaders set for Russia and the separatists to take steps to ease the violence, warning that otherwise they were ready “at any time” to impose further punitive measures.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande encouraged the Ukrainian and Russian presidents to work on meeting the EU conditions, Hollande’s office said in a statement. The EU’s demands included the return of three border checkpoints to Ukrainian control, verification of the cease-fire by monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and talks to put Poroshenko’s peace plan in place.

The call was the latest in a series of discussions the four leaders have held in recent weeks in an effort to stop the fighting that has killed more than 400 people since April. A cease-fire in place since June 20 has been shaky, with each side accusing the other of numerous violations.

A statement issued by Poroshenko’s office said he underlined Ukraine’s willingness to maintain the cease-fire at least until Monday evening, but expressed concern about the situation, noting what he said were multiple violations of the truce by separatist fighters. He called on Putin to strengthen border controls from the Russian side to stop what Ukraine says is the flow of weapons, fighters and mercenaries.

The sides agreed that more talks among representatives of Ukraine, Russia and the separatists would convene “very soon,” Poroshenko’s office said.

A Kremlin statement said the four leaders discussed having OSCE monitors stationed at the border crossing points. They also discussed issues resulting from Ukraine’s signing of a broad trade deal with the EU on Friday despite Russia’s objections. Russian officials have said Ukraine’s tariff-free trade arrangement with Russia may be withdrawn, but no trade sanctions have yet been announced.

In another indication that tensions remain high, several hundred Ukrainian soldiers and activists gathered outside the presidential administration in Kiev on Sunday to demand that Poroshenko lift the cease-fire and allow them to resume their fight.

A presidential administration official, Henadiy Zubko, promised to pass on their demands to the president, but told them that the cease-fire order would remain in effect until 10 p.m. Monday (1900GMT).

Soldiers also addressed several thousand people who turned out for the traditional Sunday rally on Independence Square in central Kiev.

Another EU condition was fulfilled late Saturday, when pro-Russia separatists released a second team of four OSCE observers who had been held captive in eastern Ukraine since the end of May. The first team of four was freed last week.

The free-trade pact that Ukraine signed with the EU was the very deal that the former Ukrainian president dumped under pressure from Moscow in November, fueling huge protests that eventually drove him from power. Moscow responded to those events by annexing the mainly Russian-speaking Crimean Peninsula in March, and the pro-Russia insurgency in eastern Ukraine broke out a month later.

The United States and the EU have slapped travel bans and asset freezes on members of Putin’s inner circle, and threatened to impose more crippling sanctions against entire sectors of Russia’s economy if the Kremlin fails to de-escalate the crisis.

The Ukrainian civil war has been... interesting. While the Ukrianian forces have had a number of victories, they've also suffered embaressing causalities and setbacks. Still the seperatist forces frankly cannot win unless they have Russian support.

[Lys]

The Ukrainian civil war has been... interesting. While the Ukrianian forces have had a number of victories, they've also suffered embaressing causalities and setbacks. Still the seperatist forces frankly cannot win unless they have Russian support.

Which, despite the Western media's hilarious attempts to prove otherwise, has not been very forthcoming thus far. Seriously, I once saw an article that could be summarized as, "Putin is so very sneaky that there is no evidence whatsoever of his obvious involvement in Eastern Ukraine, which just proves how sneaky he is." Though I do believe some Russian equipment has in fact made its way into the Donbass since that article was published, it hasn't been very much. Somewhat disappointing, but I can't blame a man for not wanting to get himself directly embroiled in a shooting war. They are, after all, notoriously costly and unpredictable.

[frigidmagi]

Reports of people who live in the area state that a number of members of the seperatist milita aren't locals. Which honestly could mean alot of things. Currently the only confirmed instant of Russian involvement was when 3 Russian tanks crossed the border. Not exacltly a mass invasion.

[Lys]

As far as I can tell, the foreigners fighting in the Donbass - primarily Russians, Cossacks, and Chechens - are there in none but their own initiative and volition. Their presence is by itself no more evidence of Russian involvement in the Ukranian Civil War than the Abraham Lincoln Brigade was evidence of US involvement in the Spanish Civil War. Sometimes people see a cause worth fighting for and take up arms and go fight it, regardless of whether their own country approves or not. Come to think of it, it wouldn't actually surprise me if those Russian tanks we saw crossing the border had been stolen or misappropriated. I mean, it seems more likely that Putin decided to try and sneak the Donbas rebels some armour, but at the same time you'd think if they were sending heavy equipment over there'd be more of it. So if it turns out some Russians actually stole those tanks off a depot and drove them over the border... yeah I'm not going to be surprised.

[General Havoc]

Given the prepositioned materiel and the hordes of "independant actors with no ties to Russia" that were involved with the Crimea seizure, I'm not prepared to believe that several people just happened to lift tanks out of a Russian arsenal and take them on a joyride to the Ukraine. And gesticulating wildly at "the western media" does not prove a damned thing one way or another. Am I to take at face value the Russian state media that speaks of the 200,000 American-backed fascist nazis secretly trained by the CIA in NATO bases in Romania instead?

I don't know what Russia's game is in all this and I don't think that Russia knows precisely what its game is in all this, but its game is not that of disinterested partisans aghast at all violence working prodigiously for peace in the face of the Jew-controlled baby-eating American Nazis. Or shall I post the articles I've seen to that effect?

[Lys]

Yes well, I did say the most likely course was that Putin was sneaking the rebels some armour. It's just that the idea that maybe someone stole the tanks popped into my head as I was writing that post - this is what "come to think" means - and it made a funny sort of sense. I mean, this is the country were a tank crew went AWOL with their tank to go buy some vodka who then proceed to accidentally ram said tank it into a house. Is it likely these tanks were stolen? No it isn't, but man if you a few years ago if it was likely the Russians would somehow misplace an entire regiment worth of tanks, I would have said not bloody likely, and yet they did. Russia is a magical place full of wonder that makes me believe all manner of lunacy is possible, including some yahoos actually stealing some T-64s from a tank depot and driving them over the border. It's also a place actually located on planet Earth, so yeah, those tanks were probably sent by the Russian government.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting the Russians are neutral in all this, they're about as blatantly pro-Donbas rebels as I am, and the only reason I'm not sending them tanks is because I don't have any. However, unlike in the Crimea were there was considerable evidence of actual Russian troops crossing the border, I haven't seen much in the way of that here. Russian aid, whatever form it's taken, has been positively anemic. That's not to say it doesn't exist, just that I believe it's primarily taken the form of materiel support, with maybe a few advisors. This means that I do believe that the Russians, Cossacks, and Chechens in the Donbass are largely independent volunteers. That may change, but for now that's the situation as I see it.

Oh, and if I don't make fun of the Russian media it's because they're largely self-parodying. There's nothing left for me to do when they go and reach maximum hilarity all by themselves.

[LadyTevar]

The other option is that the Russian Military (or parts of it) are sneaking in WITHOUT Putin's say-so or even his ok.