Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chatting

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#1 Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chatting

Post by rhoenix »

the daily beast wrote:The country that once made headlines for mobilizing a revolution over social media has just issued a major blow to online communication. On Friday, Egypt’s top religious authority effectively ordered Muslims to sign off Internet chat platforms, banning instant online communication in one of the world’s most social media-friendly countries.

As attention on the Middle East focuses on the rise of ISIS in Iraq and Syria, Egypt has forbidden online chatting between men and women to little media fanfare. The country’s highest Islamic authority, the Dar Al Ifta, issued an edict with the explanation that chats are no longer allowed because “as many experiences in our present time prove that this opens the door for evil and frivolity, an entrance for Satan, and is a source of corruption and sedition,” according to a translation. Such communications are allowed only in cases of necessity, the fatwa says.

The move is ironic in a country where an estimated 37 million people use the Internet and where half of the population of 80 million is under 25.

Egypt’s clerics singled out the practice of sending photos to the opposite gender, barring women from sending such pictures to strangers in order to “protect [them] and [their] dignity,” and warning of “corrupted acts by deviants” who could misuse those photos. (Just in time for the hacking scandal that hit female celebrities in America this past weekend.)

“Chats between a boy and a girl who are strange to each other is prohibited because this opens the door to the devil and leads to illicit relations that are harmful to society,” a senior cleric at the country’s Sunni Islam institute told Gulf News in response to the edict. “It is necessary to comply with this fatwa.”

Previous fatwas on the issue of Internet chats have not gone so far as to declare an all-out ban on inter-gender chatting.

On the religious authority’s website, users can write in about their personal use of Islam and request a conclusive answer, which serves as a fatwa. The questions, of which there seem to be hundreds, are divided into categories and range from sexual relationships to fasting details and gender mixing. An earlier fatwa request from a teenage girl asked if she could chat with boys on social media.

“Communication between both sexes is allowed if the manners prescribed by shari'ah (Islamic law) are observed and it was for a purpose deemed valid by shari'ah, such as work, study and so forth,” the answer was. “If a relationship exceeds these restrictions it becomes prohibited. In shari'ah, a woman is commanded to avoid anything that might make her an object of desire for men or an object for forbidden feelings.”

A social sharing bar on the left of this and every page on the website allows readers to spread the posts on Twitter, Facebook, and nearly 300 other social websites, many of which offer chat features.

One of Egypt’s top religious leader, Sheikh Ali Gomaa, has a vibrant Twitter and Facebook persona himself. He went on Egyptian television Monday night to discuss the fatwa, disagreeing that its inherently evil, and painting it in broader, poetic strokes of how any tool can be used for good or bad, or Halal or Haram.
"Chatting is a tool or activity like the pen or writing,” he said, according to a translation. "It can be use it for good or evil. Chatting is a tool like a knife. I can use a knife to cut butter or to cut innocent civilians heads like ISIL does.”
How much impact this will have on Egyptians pecking away at their Facebook messenger or Gchat lists is yet unknown, and the edict isn’t being entered into law. But watchdogs allege there has been a rise of enforcement of the religious line for political gain.

“Recently, the Egyptian government has been using different authoritarian tools in the face of any one party that challenges the teachings of the official religious institutions, thus detracting from the rights of Muslims who do not wish to follow the government’s religious interpretations,” the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights said in a statement on Sunday.

In Egypt, religion and politics have coexisted uneasily, as the new government continues to push out all remnants of the formerly powerful Muslim Brotherhood. In early August, the courts dissolved the party’s political arm, nearly a year after banning the main organization and declaring it a terrorist group.

The ban on chatting follows a similar edict issued earlier this year in a much more hardliner nation. In January, Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Al Khamenei banned online chatting between unrelated men and women by fatwa. The issue has opened a divide between Iranian political and religious leaders in a country where they are intrinsically tied.

But unlike Egypt’s recent slide backwards toward stifled rights and censorship, Iran might actually be attempting a slow move forward. Just last week, the government suddenly allowed mobile operators to offer high-speed connections that enable Iranians to send photo messages and video chat. It was quickly condemned by Ayatollah Khamenei, who called 3G “un-Islamic” and warning it would lead to “negative features,” and “immoral photos,” putting him at odds with the country’s policians.

“We cannot shut the gates of the world to our young generation,” President Hassan Rouhani said, according to state news. “Once, there was a time that someone would hide his radio at home, if he had one, to use it just for listening to the news. We have passed that era.”
It is my layman's understanding of that region of the world and the peoples that inhabit it that inspired my curiosity here. The points in the article I find interesting - Egypt recently boasted a very powerful campaign through social media for political change, but this move appears to my eyes a reaction to such changes in the world through a different perspective, and a similar one is offered in the article, offering condemnation to the idea of high speed internet access in Iran.

I read it as two different countries in the same region of the world adjusting at different speeds to the many changes the Internet has wrought already. Those more set in their ways and perspective (in this case, the more staunchly and powerfully religious in both Iran and Egypt) appear to see the encroachment of a global high-speed Internet as a threat, or even an evil, and there are those who welcome it to allow greater connections with people, and a better exchange of ideas.
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#2 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by frigidmagi »

Good luck enforcing that.
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#3 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by LadyTevar »

Yeah, that'll work about a well as trying to ban Evolution.
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#4 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Josh »

Never give an order that won't be obeyed. But I expect this came from some imams who don't get what this newfangled chat stuff is about, just that it's daaaaaaaaaangerous. Next they'll lecture us about how all this chat is clogging up the tubes.
“Chats between a boy and a girl who are strange to each other is prohibited because this opens the door to the devil and leads to illicit relations that are harmful to society,” a senior cleric at the country’s Sunni Islam institute told Gulf News in response to the edict.
Hey guys, the 21st century is coming right at ya. Not much you can do about that.
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#5 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Batman »

The funny part is taken to its logical conclusion, this would result in boys and girls never ever talking to each other to begin with even in the real world, because guess what, the most common way to stop being strangers is talking to each other.
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#6 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

Batman wrote:The funny part is taken to its logical conclusion, this would result in boys and girls never ever talking to each other to begin with even in the real world, because guess what, the most common way to stop being strangers is talking to each other.
To be fair, that's a bit of hyperbole of the broader Muslim perspective, from my understanding. They typically see the flirty dynamic between men and women in the West to be more than a little hedonistic, and prefer that when men and women become involved, it's more for political and familial well-being, rather than love. Marrying for love is mostly a Western thing, after all. Hearing this perspective from a Muslim to me makes sense. Even if I don't personally agree with the idea, from that person's perspective, I can at least understand the point being made.

With that said, the specifics of this perspective can get horrifying in places. I acknowledge my Western bias, but I don't think arranged marraiges between families are a step forward for a society's growth. Stability (of a sort), maybe, given other external factors and their effects, but not growth.

To be honest, this whole relationships between men & women thing seems like the easiest description for the actual issue, which is (at least, in my layman's interpretation) that people in power of Islam grew used to things being more or less steady and predictable; the Internet has a way of having very unpredictable results. To these sorts of people, the Twitter campaign people in Egypt had was flirting very closely with dangerous and evil technology - though it was used to have an influence on their country's politics, it was still seen as a subversive and dangerous influence. One look at Tindr and your average Imam from that region likely had a heart attack.

Not just because of the whole "women who dare to not dress up as a bolt of fabric at the store" thing, but because of the loss of control it symbolizes for those in power.
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#7 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Batman »

At this point, I don't give a damn about the broader Muslim perspective. The one and only person you are entitled to force your religious idiocy on is yourself.
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#8 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

Batman wrote:At this point, I don't give a damn about the broader Muslim perspective. The one and only person you are entitled to force your religious idiocy on is yourself.
That's fine, but you must acknowledge that your perspective is a Western one, borne of the societal effects of freedom of religion, and several conflicts based on religion over history in the region that led up to that point. The Middle East hasn't really had any period in which religion's place in society was really questioned that I can tell, apart from the Ottoman Empire many moons ago. And even then religion's place in society wasn't really questioned, it was just treated in a more relaxed manner, up until an Imam decided that all numbers were the tools of the devil, and the Ottoman Empire promptly faceplanted.

To a people that cannot fathom living without religion being in their lives and societies, telling them that "you're only allowing the religious idiocy to be placed on you" would almost seem like an alien concept.

This isn't something you can just tell someone, I don't think. This sort of thing is created from events in society that shape how those views affect (and are in turn affected by) the society in which they live.

(this all being a layman's history perspective, any and all historians more educated on the subjects are quite welcome to jump in and add corrections. I got all my info from Wikipedia and linked articles for this reply.)
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#9 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Batman »

I'm not sure what knowing how and why they became barbaric troglodytes (when once upon a time they were the ones who made Europe look like Cavemen (no offense to the americans but the US didn't exist as a nation back then) again changes about the fact that they did.
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'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
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#10 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

Batman wrote:I'm not sure what knowing how and why they became barbaric troglodytes (when once upon a time they were the ones who made Europe look like Cavemen (no offense to the americans but the US didn't exist as a nation back then) again changes about the fact that they did.
Because this being the time in which we live now, you're likely going to talk to a Muslim at some point in your life. If you do, telling them "you just have to ditch that religious idiocy of yours" as a solution won't do you any favors, or win you any arguments.

To have any chance of persuading someone to change their mind about things, you can't just tell them that they're wrong. That's a subjective accusation, and with most people, you'll effectively end any chance of getting to any kind of mutual understanding if you do so, and it'll simply devolve into an insult contest.

To have a chance of successfully getting someone to reconsider their point of view, you not only have to understand the details of what you're discussing, but you also have to understand the other person's perspective.
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#11 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Batman »

The people we're talking about (unlike the Muslims I'm likely to actually talk to) aren't going to change their mind no matter what I (or anybody else) say. The only way to stop them killing people is to eliminate them.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
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#12 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

Batman wrote:The people we're talking about (unlike the Muslims I'm likely to actually talk to) aren't going to change their mind no matter what I (or anybody else) say. The only way to stop them killing people is to eliminate them.
Of course! One would want to be efficient about such an endeavor. Perhaps setting up camps? And while we're at it, add a couple other "undesirable types" to the Lists so they're no longer a problem either, right?

I find it rather ironic that you call these people barbarians, and then advocate a barbarian's approach to dealing with them, especially since the most famous example of someone from your region of the world to advocate such a solution used religion and national pride to justify his actions.

Just because you find it too difficult to use your words with people to discuss issues does not mean that others are the same way.
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#13 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Josh »

I'm kind of with Bats in the sense that I'm not terribly concerned with reasoning people out of bassackwards stupidity. I'm not up for converting them at gunpoint or anything, but I'll call a spade a spade here. It's a bunch of entitled assholes protecting their niche in society by repressing others, so fuck 'em. The end product of their policies is a dehumanization of women that I personally find abominable. I know my heathen-ass opinion doesn't make them lose any sleep at night, but I'm not going to apologize for dismissing that shit out of hand either.
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#14 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

Josh wrote:I'm kind of with Bats in the sense that I'm not terribly concerned with reasoning people out of bassackwards stupidity. I'm not up for converting them at gunpoint or anything, but I'll call a spade a spade here. It's a bunch of entitled assholes protecting their niche in society by repressing others, so fuck 'em. The end product of their policies is a dehumanization of women that I personally find abominable. I know my heathen-ass opinion doesn't make them lose any sleep at night, but I'm not going to apologize for dismissing that shit out of hand either.
Well, just given the article posted as the OP, their powerbase is already eroding due to their decisions. Given other items in the news I've seen from Iran (a bunch of women having a campaign showing how they look without hajibs, a growing skateboard culture in Iran that does nothing to stop women from shredding with a board, and even a campaign for everyone to wear blue jeans), my interpretation is that in places like Iran and similar countries, it's merely a matter of time before those views get re-examined in light of the times changing, lest those views become irrelevant to the people they are purported to serve over time.

Queen Rania of Jordan is a fairly well-known public figure, and she presents herself in a fairly Western fashion (sans hajib) on places like her Youtube channel. Malia still wears a hajib, but she also quite strongly advocates for equal education opportunities for women.

Now, I'll grant that places like Saudi Arabia have basically doubled down on the oppression to keep the status quo, but in my mind, that's a short-term solution at best.

In short, as I see it, the Muslim world is facing a strong adjustment period that will likely take a while, but it is occurring, that I can see - and without overt interference from other powers, other than making things available for them to use (such as the Internet, and it's associated services).

Groups like ISIS/ISIL though are a different matter, but I don't advocate simply hunting them down and exterminating them either, simply because it would risk making martyrs of them if a Western power (or coalition of them) were to do so. My goal in this scenario would be to make them look as backwards and crazy as possible by the people they're attempting to play to; if possible, to get them viewed as embarrassing.
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#15 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by LadyTevar »

ISIS has built up a local resistance all by themselves -- Kurds working with Iranians and Iraqi to protect Christians and other Muslim sects? Totally unheard of were it not for ISIS's "caliphate".
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#16 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Josh »

Yeah honestly I don't think ISIS/ISIL is long for the world. They're the equivalent of a wildfire that exhausts its fuel too quickly. Also they're facing the eternal conundrum of the revolutionary: after you take it, you have to govern it.

My main point is that being a non-western culture doesn't protect people from criticism of/contempt for their cultural practices. The same 'it's their culture' argument could've been made for the antebellum South or for that matter the wealth culture of the Koch brothers, neither of would fly around these parts without some vigorous argumentation.
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#17 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by General Havoc »

Hell, that argument WAS the cornerstone of the Antebellum south, that Northern Agitators were coming down to "stir up our niggers" and "trample on our way of life".

Didn't work so well, did it?

I'm reminded of a British judge in the 1880s who was given arguments that it was imperialistic and wrong for the British to trample over Indian culture by banning forced widow-immolations. His reply was that he accepted that it was an element of Indian Culture to burn widows on the pyre of their husband, but that unfortunately it was an element of British culture to hang people who burned women alive, and that therefore he, like they, would merely be practicing his own time-honored traditions by stringing up those responsible.

Not that the British were above trampling other people's cultures, of course, particularly in India, but the response has always amused me.
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#18 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by LadyTevar »

Havoc, it was a British General Charles James Napier, who said "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."
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#19 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by rhoenix »

I want to make a public apology to Batman - my retort to his last post was over the line, as it invoked Godwin's law.

Batman, you have my apologies - I do enjoy a spirited debate, but my response to you got personal, and it had no business being so.
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#20 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Batman »

While I don't really think your apology is necessary I'll happily accept it. To some extent you are correct about my proposed solution being similar to Nazi Germany's attempts to get rid of 'undesirables'. I just don't see any other. Those people need to be removed from the equation, and currently the only working way I see to do that is eliminating them. If eliminating them as a force that has any noticeable influence turns out to work without killing them by the truckload, say we find a way to teleport them to some inhabitable planet or other, fine, let them have their stupid Caliphate there (they'll get their teeth kicked in by Haven in the 2nd round of the Haven/Manticore war but that's no longer our problem).
But for the time being and out in the real world, they're not listening to reason, they're forcing/trying to force their belief on others and kill them when they don't budge (to the extent of murdering children for being the wrong religion-whatever happened to converting to Islam?), these people need to be gone.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
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#21 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Steve »

LadyTevar wrote:Havoc, it was a British General Charles James Napier, who said "Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."
IIRC when India tried to take down a statue of Napier, the local women protested fiercely. He's become somehing of a patron saint to the women of India.
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
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Mr. Coffee
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:36 pm
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#22 Re: Egypt’s Fatwa Against Tinder: Clerics Ban Online Chattin

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Holy shit... I called this like ten years ago over on SDN in a fic I wrote...
Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? - Sgt Oddball
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