Germans Leave in Record Numbers, Fleeing Unemployment

N&P: Discussion of news headlines and politics.

Moderator: frigidmagi

Post Reply
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#1 Germans Leave in Record Numbers, Fleeing Unemployment

Post by frigidmagi »

Bloomberg
Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Thomas Koerber, an engineering technician from Viernheim, Germany, was looking for a new job. He found it -- 4,700 miles away, in Canada.

``I looked around, found a job I liked in Canada, and left Germany within two months,'' Koerber, 39, said in a telephone interview from Calgary. ``If I can get a better job abroad, and if I'm being treated better, I'm gone.''

Koerber is one of 145,000 Germans who fled the fatherland last year amid record postwar unemployment, pushing emigration to its highest level since 1954, Federal Statistics Office figures show. Last year was also the first since the late 1960s that emigrants outnumbered Germans returning home from living abroad, the statistics office said.

Even more troubling to German officials and business leaders, many were skilled workers like Koerber. The loss of such people, they say, may threaten Germany's economic competitiveness in the future.

``Many highly qualified young people are leaving our country to seek their fortunes elsewhere, while only very few top people have been attracted to Germany in recent years,'' said Ludwig Georg Braun, president of the Association of German Chambers of Industry and Commerce, which represents more than 3 million companies. ``This development is causing us growing concern.''

Merkel's Government

Unemployment reached 5.2 million, the highest level since World War II, in February 2005. Joblessness has declined since Chancellor Angela Merkel's coalition government of Christian Democrats and Social Democrats took office last November. Still, the unemployment rate stood at 8.2 percent in June, according to internationally comparable figures published by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. By the OECD's reckoning, the jobless rates in neighboring Austria and Switzerland were 4.9 percent and 4.3 percent, respectively.

While polls show that Germans regard unemployment as the nation's most pressing problem, they also show little confidence in Merkel's ability to tackle it. Three-quarters of 2,501 respondents in a July 12 Forsa poll said they didn't expect the government to be able to solve it, and that sentiment may drive even more workers to look outside the country.

``People say things aren't getting better in Germany, and nothing's going to change any time soon,'' said historian Simone Eick, director of the German Emigration Center in the northern port city of Bremerhaven. Indeed, ``some indicators suggest that this may be the start of mass emigration.''

`No Future'

That's reflected by the 630 postings recorded since Aug. 10 on an Internet forum on emigration hosted by Germany's Spiegel magazine. Germany doesn't have much of a future, a 40 year-old German teacher who moved to France said Aug. 26 in a typical posting. The teacher, writing under the alias ``Kritischer Leser,'' meaning Critical Reader, said he's working fewer hours and making more money than his sister, a doctor in Germany.

For Koerber, the decision to leave was largely one of taxes. In Germany, where the highest tax bracket starts at 52,152 euros ($66,600), he would have to pay 42 percent of every euro above that level. In addition, the German value-added tax -- a kind of national sales levy -- is 16 percent, which is scheduled to rise three percentage points next year.

``I only get 25 percent deducted from my salary and that includes everything,'' said Koerber of his pay packet in Canada. ``And I'm in the highest tax bracket!'' The goods and services tax in Alberta is 6 percent, cut from 7 percent in July, he said.

`Over-Regulated'

Other German expatriates cite what they say is the over- regimentation of the labor force. ``Life in Germany is totally over-regulated,'' said Christian Kaestner, 38, an attorney who moved from Munich to Cape Town, South Africa, in 1997. ``There are hardly any freedoms left, and you keep bumping into regulations and prohibitions.''

The German government makes no attempts to curb emigration and encourages the free movement of labor. In fact, the Federal Labor Agency has a cross-border job placement-unit for qualified workers that helped 12,702 Germans find work abroad last year, a 39 percent jump from 2004.

Government officials say the numbers aren't alarming, because many Germans move to other countries to work for a limited period of time, and return with additional qualifications.

Marlene Dietrich

In the past, most German emigrants went to the U.S., among them Friedrich Wilhelm von Steuben, who sailed from Europe in 1777 and went on to train George Washington's army at Valley Forge, and actress and singer Marlene Dietrich, who left in 1933, the year Adolf Hitler came to power.

Today's emigrants are more likely to choose Canada, New Zealand and Australia, or, within Europe, Switzerland, Austria and the Netherlands. An estimated 2,300 German doctors are working in Switzerland, more than 8 percent of the Swiss total, said the Bern-based FMH Swiss Medical Association.

Taking into account gross pay, taxes, insurance and the cost of living, doctors make more money in Switzerland, said Matthias Dettmer, 31, an assistant pathologist in Zurich from the southern German city of Tuebingen. He makes more than double his former colleagues in Germany, who earn what he calls a ``cleaner's pay.''

``I don't know yet whether I'll ever go back,'' said Dettmer. ``Under the prevailing conditions, it would be a hard sell to convince me that it's better in Germany.''

Koerber, who's striving for permanent Canadian residency, said there's little point trying to persuade him to return home. ``I'll never come back,'' he said. ``Guaranteed.''
I wondered about this so I sought confirmation. I found it at this place and here.

So now I ask our European posters and everyone else, do you think this is the eginning of a trend? Why or why not?
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Dartzap
Keeper of the Beer
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:22 am
19
Location: on that small pile of rocks called the UK
Contact:

#2

Post by Dartzap »

It's been happening for a fair while here, people getting away from the 'Rip-Off Britain' effect - go to the places where they expertise is needed and where the money goes further. Hence why there is such a large proportion of Brits who live in Austrailia.
"Why hello! Could I intrest you in some giant bonsai trees?"

Image
User avatar
Stofsk
Secret Agent Man
Posts: 1710
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:46 pm
19
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#3

Post by Stofsk »

I was more interested to read about the 'over regulation' in German society, something which reminds me of social democrats. I was hoping the article might go into more detail about that.
User avatar
B4UTRUST
Dance Puppets Dance
Posts: 4867
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 3:31 pm
19
Location: Chesapeake, Va
Contact:

#4

Post by B4UTRUST »

Well, while I don't have any hard facts or statistics, I'm sure Bats may be able to give them to us, I recall that shortly after the fall of the Berlin Wall there was a surge of East Germans into West Germany. There was a huge shift in employment and a large increase of unemployment and homelessness as the increase in population overtook the availability of resources in some areas. I dont know how much this has settled down, but I do suspect that was the beginning of what we're seeing now.
Image
Saint Annihilus - Patron Saint of Dealing with Stupid Customers
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#5

Post by frigidmagi »

On a side note, I have found out that while nationally unemployment for Germany is 8% (which honestly isn't that bad), over in former East Germany unemployment has risen to has high as 20% in some areas.

Honestly this isn't the fault of the German goverment, Eastern Germans just got screwed by a shitty education system and a social system that left them badly perpared to compete for jobs. I do wonder about the strain this places on their social programs however.

I also wonder how their low birthrate is going to impact their way of life. It's for the government to provide you with a decent retired life if there's no taxpayers to pay for it.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#6

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

have to disagree there Magi. A large part of it is the fault of the german government. A skilled, educated worker who makes say... 60 thousand euros a year, after taxes makes only 38.4 thousand euros after automatic deductions. Factor into that, the fact that say, this german will probably spend say, 300-500 euros a month on just food, before taxes (this is an estimate) that's another thousand Euros in taxes.

That's a lot of money, you basically work 6 months out of the year for the government.

Take into account german labor laws

A legistlated min of 20 days paid vacation time (it is often more under collective bargaining agreements)

It is also difficult to get rid of a worker once you have hired them.

Termination of employment can only happen by
-- Both parties agreeing
-- COntracted term of employment ends
-- Notice is given of termination

This notice is typically 4 weeks of notice, and generally, if you are an employer, you pretty much have to be willing to go to court.

large scale dismissals(layoffs) have to go through a government agency first.

This makes it very unattractive for a company in germany to hire workers. If they cant get rid of you, even for incompetance or on the job drunkeness (and yes, there have been cases of this where the employer lost in court)

There is a fine line between protecting the rights of workers, and stifling your economy with regulation, and the germans have crossed it.
Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
Batman
The Dark Knight
Posts: 4357
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:47 am
18
Location: The Timmverse, the only place where DC Comics still make a modicum of sense
Contact:

#7

Post by Batman »

Comrade Tortoise wrote:have to disagree there Magi. A large part of it is the fault of the german government. A skilled, educated worker who makes say... 60 thousand euros a year, after taxes makes only 38.4 thousand euros after automatic deductions. Factor into that, the fact that say, this german will probably spend say, 300-500 euros a month on just food, before taxes (this is an estimate) that's another thousand Euros in taxes.
And those numbers are based on what, exactly? When working IT I made a maximum of 32,500 before taxes and I have no clue where you get the 300-500€ figure for just food from.
That's a lot of money, you basically work 6 months out of the year for the government.
Take into account german labor laws
A legistlated min of 20 days paid vacation time (it is often more under collective bargaining agreements)
And the problem with that is what, exactly?
It is also difficult to get rid of a worker once you have hired them.
Termination of employment can only happen by
-- Both parties agreeing
-- COntracted term of employment ends
-- Notice is given of termination
This notice is typically 4 weeks of notice, and generally, if you are an employer, you pretty much have to be willing to go to court.
Bzzt. Wrong. In fact if you are the employee you have to be willing to go to court. There's tons of reasons you can get rid of employees for, some of the farcial like nobody's business, contracted terms of employment can be as short as six months if not less, there's the 'Probezeit' of 3 to 6 monts during which they can fire you for no reason whatsoever, and this
large scale dismissals(layoffs) have to go through a government agency first.
is complete garbage. The government might try to intervene to keep the company to keep some or all of the workers via talks but if said company closes part of, all of, or even several installations there's nothing whatsoever the government can do about it.
This makes it very unattractive for a company in germany to hire workers. If they cant get rid of you, even for incompetance or on the job drunkeness (and yes, there have been cases of this where the employer lost in court)
And of course nothing like that ever happened in the US. Can you say 'anecdotal evidence'? On the job inebriation IS legal grounds for firing someone, as is incompetence.
Last edited by Batman on Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
'Run away, and live to run away another day'-The Rincewind principle
'Hello, inner child. I'm the inner babysitter.'
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#8

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

And those numbers are based on what, exactly? When working IT I made a maximum of 32,500 before taxes and I have no clue where you get the 300-500€ figure for just food from.
300-500(comes out to 360-600 USD last time I checked the exchange rates, which was a while ago) for food, I figured was a reasonable number, say single-earner household with a child or two. As was 60k. At least here, the equivalent is reasonable for someone with an education in a relatively in-demand position.
And the problem with that is what, exactly?
I am not opposed to vacations as a general rule, but from a strictly economic standpoint, that much paid vacation puts financial stress on an employer. Increasing the cost of hiring, for example, one more worker.

Bzzt. Wrong. In fact if you are the employee you have to be willing to go to court. There's tons of reasons you can get rid of employees for, some of the farcial like nobody's business, contracted terms of employment can be as short as six months if not less, there's the 'Probezeit' of 3 to 6 monts during which they can fire you for no reason whatsoever, and this

Statutory protection against dismissal is not influenced by the Law on Periods of Notice. Irrespective of the individual periods, a notice of termination of the contract of employment may only be issued if it is corroborated by the facts and appears socially justified. In other words, the circumstances of the individual case must be taken into account. In case of large-scale dismissals, the employment office in charge must be notified. The notices of termination of employment do not become valid until they are authorized by the employment office or alternatively until one month has elapsed since receipt of the above-mentioned information. Exceptional dismissal without notice is only possible if there is a reasonable cause due to the behavior of the employee.


Emphasis mine

Taken from

http://www.germany.info/relaunch/busine ... orlaw.html

Please, clarify this. Perhaps they left something out, but that is where I got that bit of information.

How would this be enforced if not through the courts, and how is submitting a layoff to the employmet office for approval not having to go through a government agency?

Please, inform me. You know more about german business law than I do. So how does that work?

Is the german embassy..wrong? DId I misread it? No sarcasm, how does that work?
And of course nothing like that ever happened in the US. Can you say 'anecdotal evidence'? On the job inebriation IS legal grounds for firing someone, as is incompetence.
Oh, it has, probability being what it is. But then again, our labor laws vary from state to state. So in one state, it could very well bethat something like that happens on a regular basis, in another, the judge would have been legally within his right to dismiss the lawsuit immediatly.
Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
Batman
The Dark Knight
Posts: 4357
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:47 am
18
Location: The Timmverse, the only place where DC Comics still make a modicum of sense
Contact:

#9

Post by Batman »

Great Valen I hate those monster quotes.
Comrade Tortoise wrote:
And those numbers are based on what, exactly? When working IT I made a maximum of 32,500 before taxes and I have no clue where you get the 300-500€ figure for just food from.
300-500(comes out to 360-600 USD last time I checked the exchange rates, which was a while ago) for food, I figured was a reasonable number, say single-earner household with a child or two. As was 60k. At least here, the equivalent is reasonable for someone with an education in a relatively in-demand position.
You might have clarified that cost was for a household, I assumed you were talking about a single person. And I guess that depends what you consider a relatively in-demand position.
And the problem with that is what, exactly?
I am not opposed to vacations as a general rule, but from a strictly economic standpoint, that much paid vacation puts financial stress on an employer.
We're talking a whopping 4 weeks a year here (which is incidentally down from 28 days).
(Increasing the cost of hiring, for example, one more worker.)
And is compensated for by the worker being more productive thanks to being less stressed out.
What exacerbates the problem, of course, is the asinine number of religious and mundane holidays we already have which likely double the amount of time an employee is not working. Problem is a lot of them are (sometimes extremely) regional and mobile while IIRC the laws dealing with this kind of stuff are federal (and even if they're Ländersache that doesn't help much, 30 km worth of seperation can turn one man's holiday into another man's working day).
Bzzt. Wrong. In fact if you are the employee you have to be willing to go to court. There's tons of reasons you can get rid of employees for, some of the farcial like nobody's business, contracted terms of employment can be as short as six months if not less, there's the 'Probezeit' of 3 to 6 monts during which they can fire you for no reason whatsoever, and this

Statutory protection against dismissal is not influenced by the Law on Periods of Notice.

Does not apply to limited term contracts and the Probezeit. Limited term contracts expire automatically and as I said during the 'Probezeit' (the closest I can come up with trial time) they can fire you no questions asked. Where it gets interesting is when an employee has been with the company for a considerable length of time and Valen help you if he's unionized (but that problem isn't exactly unique to Germany now is it? :) )
Irrespective of the individual periods, a notice of termination of the contract of employment may only be issued if it is corroborated by the facts and appears socially justified. In other words, the circumstances of the individual case must be taken into account. In case of large-scale dismissals, the employment office in charge must be notified. The notices of termination of employment do not become valid until they are authorized by the employment office or alternatively until one month has elapsed since receipt of the above-mentioned information. Exceptional dismissal without notice is only possible if there is a reasonable cause due to the behavior of the employee.
Emphasis mine
Taken from
http://www.germany.info/relaunch/busine ... orlaw.html
Please, clarify this. Perhaps they left something out, but that is where I got that bit of information.
How would this be enforced if not through the courts,
It WILL be enforced through the courts. IF THE EMPLOYEE SUES. Given the garbage that goes on over at the US civil system that shouldn't come as a surprise. Unless the employee actually has a case, however, (or the judge reviewing the case is a moron) it's never going to trial. As for the drunk on the job thingy see see the 'reasonable cause' clause in your quote.
Unless and until the employee sues (which he won't do without a good cause, the delusion of having a good cause, or plain stupidity) the firing is VALID and the courts do not become involved.
and how is submitting a layoff to the employmet office for approval not having to go through a government agency?
Huh. I knew they usually did but had no idea they were actually legally required to.
Doesn't change much about the outcome, though. So the company has to wait an extra four weeks to fire those people. Big fucking deal. Given that companies that make billion euro net gains regularly fire large numbers of people for alleged reductions of income or whatever the technical term is (i.e. they didn't make quite as absurdly much money as last year) my heart bleeds for the companies.
Please, inform me. You know more about german business law than I do. So how does that work?
I wouldn't bet my money on that one.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
'Run away, and live to run away another day'-The Rincewind principle
'Hello, inner child. I'm the inner babysitter.'
User avatar
frigidmagi
Dragon Death-Marine General
Posts: 14757
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
19
Location: Alone and unafraid

#10

Post by frigidmagi »

That's all very nice Ben, but I was talking about the fact that unemployment is higher in east than in the west not of any problems in the German system itself.

Maybe instead of rushing to show off you should actually read other poeples post.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
Post Reply