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A recent qoute from a senator declared that prisoners in Abu Garib had ad their Constitutional Rights violated. Given the context, it seemed to me that he meant the US Constitution.

Abu Garib was indeed a illegal event. But the Constitution of the US was not the law broken in this event. Why?

Because the Constitution only applys to US citizens and legal aliens dwelling within the US. It does not apply to foregin prisoners on foregin soil who just happen to be held by US troops. The laws violated by the event were the Geneva Convention, Iraqi Domenstice Law and the UCMJ of the United States Military. Events like these and others led me to ask

Should we make Civic classes whose prime goal will be teach students about the Constitution and other US laws and government functions, required to graduate? As in if you fail this class you get to do the year over.

Well, yes.

While we're at it we can fail students who can't read, can't write comprehensibly, and can't do basic mathematics.

It would be a good start.

But then the stupid kids will complain. Or try to anyway, furrowing their brows in a vain attempt at understanding their situation. I mean, failing students because they have poor grades? Perish the thought! :eek:

I know you're being facetious Chris, but we reeeeeally do need to reintroduce the concept of failure into the system. I mean stark, demoralizing, shitty failure. There's way too much insulation from that sort of thing and has been since I was a kid.

In any event, it's a derail from the original topic, though. Now, in the case of Senator Whoever here, was he really that ignorant, or was he just banking on public ignorance? Either way, it's not a good situation.

Thankfully, in my state, a Government class is required. But I think it should be a universal one. People need to know what the constitution means and the context in which it was written.

More people in America can name members of the Simpsons then they can state amendments to the constitution.

Yes, we need a class to teach our youth about their rights, liberties and responsibilities. If nothing else, so that they can learn about these rights before they're stripped away.

I still have come to grips with this 'no child left behind' nonsense. If you no longer get failing grades what's the point of grading? I realize I'm no american and it's been a while since I've been in high school but back in my day if you failed, you failed.
The purpose of school is to teach and if the students aren't learning, show them in a manner they'll understand (i.e. failing grades).
I realize that's only part of the problem (you can't blame the students for the failures of the school system) but back in my school days at least, somebody graduating the local equivalent of primary school leave alone high school without being able to read and write german properly and doing basic math would have been unthinkable.

Participation In Government was a graduation requirement at my high school, and I'm not sure if it was a state thing or what. Everyone complains about it. The not so bright students hated it because it was too much work or something, and the decent students know it's a bullshit class. Anything of value in it was taught in US History the year before. It was only a semester long class, but it still takes up a spot on our schedules that could have been put to better use with pretty much anything else.

We require math on the basis that we need it. We require English on the basis that we need it. We require science on the basis that we need it.

Yet there are other basic skills that we, as citizens, need in order to live. We need more than a basic understanding of economics, we need practical education in how to manage our finances. We need to understand how banks and loans and credit cards and debit cards work, how to deal with insurance, what happens when we are involved in fraud and theft.

We also need to understand how our society is designed to work. We need to understand that politics is more than just what we see in high school with our overblown popularity contests. We need the basis for this education in primary schools.

We also need to understand how the rest of the world works. Diplomacy, intelligence, what other governments are like, how they work, and what the rest of the world is like.

We also should have classes about religion. That's right, I said public schools teaching about religion. Mind you, not teaching religion itself, but the tenants of the world's religions and beliefs. Not about teaching which is right, but exposing children to all types of religions so they can understand at least what other people believe.

Civics and government is a graduation requirement in Indiana.

Petrosjko wrote:In any event, it's a derail from the original topic, though. Now, in the case of Senator Whoever here, was he really that ignorant, or was he just banking on public ignorance? Either way, it's not a good situation.

There is often a great deal of confusion among Americans when it comes to understanding the boundaries that exist around the rights they take for granted. The classic example is the First Amendment; most Americans (especially on the internet) seem to love to invoke it as though it says you can say whatever you want and nobody else (including individual other citizens) has a right to prevent you, and that this is true no matter where they go or where they might be.

I'm all for there being discussion of the rights that military prisoners in an age of insurgency and terrorism should and shouldn't have-- I think it's a very important topic-- but there's no way in hell there can be anything like rational progress on the topic if the people doing the talking don't even understand what is and isn't relevant.

Still, to the main question, I say: It doesn't matter what we teach or don't teach kids in American schools. On average, they're going to succeed through guile, nepotism, or money, or fail because they don't have access to those things. All other factors (like "what they know") are second-order.

(Admittedly, the occasional rare prodigy will succeed because he or she is ambitious, works hard, and/or is very talented, but again, their success is not going to come because they know Constitutional Law out of high school.)

--The Elder Dan

I think you would be shocked how many of us graduated High School because we actually knew the material.

Well, I'm a firm believe we need a great deal of deep reform in our school system. Right now, it's utterly failing.

There were several good teachers who broadened my horizons when I was in school, but I can say that a significant portion of my education beyond absorbing the basics came from my own studies.

Edit- Oh, and HEY DAN! How's the wee sprout?

Some kind of civics/government class is required in Georgia for graduation. I took it. I don't know about other schools, but since it was required it was basically a bullshit class like Health. That was the teacher who picked on girls in class because he had issues with his height (he was shorter than I am) and had "civics lessons" that consisted of us watching Bill O'Reilly. He positively idolized that dumbass, since it was proof that a useless windbag social studies teacher could become rich and famous just by ranting mindlessly. And I'll stop here before I go on for the next several hours.

Civics is a required course in Louisiana. However, like most previous posts it is only one semester long and seen as an easy A and wasted time.

I think it should be required as a comprehensive class that should be taken at least twice (maybe once in upper elmentary and again in high school). I am after all and Secondary Social Studies Education Major.

On a further note: If anyone would like to get into a debate on how utterly shitty the US Education system is, see me. Because, trust me, you have no idea how bad it really is until you try to become part of that system. I know more shit about NCLB than I care to think about and none of it makes me particularly happy. If you're interested you know how to find me....