Britain wants UK break up, poll shows

[frigidmagi]

telegraph

The United Kingdom should be broken up and Scotland and England set free as independent nations, according to a huge number of voters on both sides of the border.

poll results

A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.

There is also further evidence of rising English nationalism with support for the establishment of an English parliament hitting an historic high of 68 per cent amongst English voters. Almost half – 48 per cent – also want complete independence for England, divorcing itself from Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one.

The poll comes only months before the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union between England and Scotland and will worry all three main political parties. None of them favours Scottish independence, but all have begun internal debates on the future of the constitution.

The dramatic findings came as Gordon Brown, the favourite to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, delivered an impassioned defence of the Union at Labour's Scottish conference in Oban yesterday.

In an attack on the Scottish National Party, against whom Labour will fight a bitter battle for control of the Edinburgh-based parliament next May, the Chancellor claimed: "We should never let the Nationalists deceive people into believing that you can break up the United Kingdom."

The ICM poll told a very different story, however, with 60 per cent of English voters complaining that higher levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland were "unjustified", compared to 28 per cent claiming they were justified. Even among Scots, 36 per cent said the system was unfair, with only 51 per cent supporting it.

Voters also had serious concerns about the so-called West Lothian Question, the ability of Scottish MPs at Westminster to vote on solely English matters while many purely Scottish issues are decided in Edinburgh. Sixty-two per cent of English voters want Scottish MPs stripped of this right and even 46 per cent of Scots agreed. The poll showed that the English are more likely to think of themselves as British than the Scots are. Only 16 per cent of English people said they were "English, not British", compared to 26 per cent of Scots who said they were "Scottish, not British."

In the sporting arena, 70 per cent of English people said they would support a Scottish team playing football or rugby against a nation other than England. But, when the question was put to Scots, only 48 per cent said they would back England with 34 per cent supporting their opponents, no matter which country it was.

There was good news for David Cameron, the Conservative leader, when voters in England were asked who they would back in a general election held tomorrow. The Tories were on 37 per cent, with 31 per cent backing Labour and 23 per cent supporting the Liberal Democrats.

David Cameron
David Cameron: 'The union is good for us all'

Mr Brown said: "There is a debate to be had about the future of the United Kingdom. But I think when you look at the arguments — at the family ties, the economic connections, the shared values, the history of our relationship which has lasted 300 years — people will decide we are stronger together and weaker apart."

Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart. The last thing we need is yet another parliament with separate elections and more politicians spending more money."

Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem leader, called for a "calm rational debate" on the role of MPs from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales at Westminster. "The last thing we need is knee-jerk opportunistic political responses."

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, said: "In England, people quite rightly resent Scottish Labour MPs bossing them about on English domestic legislation. England has as much right to self government as Scotland does."

I'm nonplused. Great Britian is set to break up before my very eyes.

[Stofsk]

How the mighty have fallen. Once rulers of a vast empire, now reduced... to this.

[Narsil]

I am Scottish and British, but I agree wholly that England needs its own seperate parliament. If and when the United Kingdom splits up into the two seperate nations, there's not much question about it that I'll make sure to be on the Scottish side.

However, Gordon Brown is correct that the countries are much stronger operating as a single nation. But, of course, Scots who get to keep the money and earnings from their own oil are happy Scots.

[Dartzap]

I am Scottish and British, but I agree wholly that England needs its own separate parliament. If and when the United Kingdom splits up into the two separate nations, there's not much question about it that I'll make sure to be on the Scottish side.

However, Gordon Brown is correct that the countries are much stronger operating as a single nation. But, of course, Scots who get to keep the money and earnings from their own oil are happy Scots.

that's the point though, isn't it? there seems to be this bizarre thing that if Scotland is independent, everything will be better, which to my mind is a load of BS. If they get it, then you can bet a million midgets that all that supposed wealth will go to a select few and the rest of Scotland will go down the swanny at an alarming rate.

oh, and the fact that the majority of the higher ups in government in Westminster are Scottish as well might make a lot of people want this so called "freedom".

[frigidmagi]

Form what I'm getting from the SNP, they seem to think that scottish indepenence and seperation will cause a greater increase in wealth in Scottland. I'm not so sold. They also want the Trident carrying subs out of Scottland. They're a nukey free party it seems.

[Narsil]

Form what I'm getting from the SNP, they seem to think that scottish indepenence and seperation will cause a greater increase in wealth in Scottland.

A lot of wealth in the UK comes from Scottish oil. Scottish oil which we Scots do not actually make any money out of because it all goes to the United Kingdom.

[frigidmagi]

My understanding Narsil is that 60% of the Scotts employed are by the UK government and that more money is spent per head for Scotts then English.

[Narsil]

more money is spent per head for Scotts then English.

And the numbers on 'more heads spent per head'? I mean, ten pence is arguably 'more spent', but not exactly much of a difference in the long run.

I'm not actually supporting Scottish Independence (at the moment), what I am saying is that there are quite a few imbalance issues that do need to be addressed if the Union is to last any longer than the next few decades.

[Dartzap]

Oh yes, these polls are generally bullshit as well. They usually ask 4000 people. Out of sixty million. And of course, an issue like this will be more relevant to someone bordering Scotland than down south, so who the hells are they asking in this poll? If I was to ask everyone I saw in my town, would any of them have taken part in this poll? I somehow doubt it.

Now, I could understand if they did what the Gov are trying to do, a survey of over 17 million people, but a few thousand? It's just BS.

[Destructionator XV]

That is normal in statistics. If you poll at least about 1000 randomly spected people, the differences in percentages between them and the entire population is usually pretty insignificant.

[Narsil]

That is normal in statistics. If you poll at least about 1000 randomly spected people, the differences in percentages between them and the entire population is usually pretty insignificant.

However, the statistics look more like 50-50 with room to go either way, particularly on the Scottish side. Two percent does not an overwhelming majority make, and the election results speak a little more clearly than this poll, and Labour (which doesn't want to split up the union) is quite clearly more popular overall (because, y'know, they got voted in and the SNP sort of didn't)

[frigidmagi]

I could have said the same thing about the Republicians two years ago...

[Narsil]

I could have said the same thing about the Republicians two years ago...

Well... on the third hand that nobody seems to have mentioned yet, the SNP's popularity is quite low compared to the three main parties (Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat), so we're more likely to get Tony Blair Mk.2 or Sir Menzies Campbell in charge before we get any sort of union seperation. That's the joy of the British system really; we have more than two governmental parties, and the ones vying for Scottish Independence are pretty low on the main list.