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#1 US Senate blocks vote on Iraq war

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:19 pm
by frigidmagi
BBC
The US Senate has decided not to debate a resolution criticising President George W Bush's troop surge in Iraq.

The rare Saturday session followed a non-binding vote backing the resolution in the House of Representatives.

In the House, 17 Republicans had joined the majority Democrats to oppose the increase of 21,500 troops.

Democrats needed the support of 60 of the 100 senators to advance the same motion in the Senate, but they only managed to gain 56 votes in favour.

Mr Bush still faces battles with Congress over funding for US troops in Iraq.

Although both the Congressional resolutions are non-binding, the president needs the legislators to support his $93bn (£48bn) emergency troop-funding measure.

The White House has dismissed the vote, and warned Congress against trying to cut off funding.

Under Mr Bush's new Iraq strategy, 21,500 extra troops are being sent, mostly to the capital Baghdad, to help enforce new security measures.

'More war or less war'

Senate Democrats were hoping to repeat their Friday success in the House, when the motion criticising the president's Iraq policy was passed by 246 votes to 182.

"Today's vote is an opportunity to send a powerful message," said Democrat majority leader, Senator Harry Reid, during an emotional discussion.

"The Senate's responsibility must be to vote on escalation, whether the so-called surge is supported or opposed. This is the choice. More war, or less war," the Democrat leader told the Senate.

Republicans sought debate on a different motion, which would have ruled out any budget cuts affecting troops already in Iraq.

"A vote in support of the troops that is silent on the question of funds is an attempt to have it both ways," said Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader.

Only seven Republicans broke ranks with the party, and so the Democrats failed to reach the 60 votes needed to pass the motion.

'Tragic goal'

The House vote on Friday in support of the non-binding motion brought to a close the first full debate there since the Democrats took control of Congress in November.

Speaking after the vote, House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi said it would send an unmistakable signal to the White House.

"The bipartisan resolution today may be non-binding. But it will send a strong message to the president - we here in Congress are committed to protecting and supporting our troops."

House Minority Leader John Boehner had urged lawmakers to vote against the motion, saying it was "the first step towards a tragic, unthinkable goal".
Yes, Pelosi wants to support and protect our troops... By denying them reinforcements! If she wants the troops out instead of playing games, let her declare it and make a resolution for that!

But to declare you want to protect the troops from harm and that you support them while also saying you want to cut them off from any hope of reinforcement is a vile and monsterous lie. Either pull them out or fight to win, do not play games in the middle ground with our lives Miss Speaker.

To be blunt I regard any attempt to limit the amount of troops that can be sent to Iraq to be nothing less but an attempt to expose those already there to greater harm and ensure futher bleeding. Let us either speak of leaving the place or of winning the war. Let us not speak of purogtories where men and women in uniform are left behind to bleed and die without any hope of any change in the situation.

#2

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:40 pm
by SirNitram
I will be frank, as is my nature. 20,000 isn't gonna make a fucking difference. It's a political move that just extends the bleeding.

Shit, this isn't even binding, so you can hardly call it making it worse.

#3

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:50 pm
by frigidmagi
I will also be blunt.

The fact that is nonbinding to me only displays the desire of the Democrats not to actually do anything but posture and preen. Until they decide what they really want to do they're going to be worse then useless.

As to your charge of extending the bleeding. The 21,000 provide a change to secure Baghdad. Already we have seen Al Sadr flee to Iran and over 600 chiefs of the milita tuck tale and run. Much of the Milita's strength is focused on Baghdad, it has become the central front of the war. Refusing to reinforce to try to bring in more troops in an effort to nail down and secure more ground gives the enemy more freedom of action and allows him to inflict more causalities on us. This move is in keeping with the Pace report and the desires of it's writers. Troops on the ground have called for reinforcements to give them the ability to secure more ground and gain greater freedom of action. In short I completely disagree with you, General Pace and the officers who served in Iraq disagree with you and the troops who are on the ground disagree with you. Give me about 2 hours and I will provide you with the links either here, over PM or AIM.

In all respect Nitram I must ask you sincerely to consider that you may be mistaken.

#4

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:10 pm
by SirNitram
frigidmagi wrote:I will also be blunt.

The fact that is nonbinding to me only displays the desire of the Democrats not to actually do anything but posture and preen. Until they decide what they really want to do they're going to be worse then useless.
If this were the only move, it would be very much as you describe it. However, as the media babbles on this and the GOP panic over this(Leaked papers make it clear that even debating Iraq is to be forbidden. They truly consider it a political position, not a war to fight.), we have other things happening. Most effective, insofar as I know Congress' legitimate powers over the military, is the revocation of the AUMF. This will force a withdrawl.
As to your charge of extending the bleeding. The 21,000 provide a change to secure Baghdad. Already we have seen Al Sadr flee to Iran and over 600 chiefs of the milita tuck tale and run. Much of the Milita's strength is focused on Baghdad, it has become the central front of the war. Refusing to reinforce to try to bring in more troops in an effort to nail down and secure more ground gives the enemy more freedom of action and allows him to inflict more causalities on us. This move is in keeping with the Pace report and the desires of it's writers. Troops on the ground have called for reinforcements to give them the ability to secure more ground and gain greater freedom of action. In short I completely disagree with you, General Pace and the officers who served in Iraq disagree with you and the troops who are on the ground disagree with you. Give me about 2 hours and I will provide you with the links either here, over PM or AIM.

In all respect Nitram I must ask you sincerely to consider that you may be mistaken.
I have considered it, but the problem is this: The reports and discussions you bring up, I know of. None of them want 21k. The only source wanting 21k is John McCain, for whom this is a political ploy and leverage for his Presidential run only. More troops are needed, but as we've hashed out, they don't exist unless we start stripping our treaty-bound positions.

A true reinforcement needs a shitload more folks. I will admit that, if the Iraqi army closes the borders as it's claimed it would, 21k might do the trick. But my expectations with the Iraqi army remain extremely low.

I may be wrong. It would be nice to be proven wrong by a victory. But I'm not expecting such.