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#1 On Kosovo (Merged Thread)

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:05 am
by frigidmagi
Time
Flames issuing from the U.S. embassy in Belgrade on Thursday underscored the mounting rage in Serbia over Kosovo's Western-backed declaration of independence. The embassy was unguarded when several hundred demonstrators attacked, following a protest rally by hundreds of thousands of protesters. At that larger rally, held earlier, the sharp divisions that typify Serbian politics were nowhere to be seen, as leaders from across the spectrum united in a massive show of force to protest Kosovo's secession from Serbia. As banners bearing messages such as "Kosovo is Serbia" were hoisted, the country's leading politicians were joined by the likes of filmmaker Emir Kusturica. Even Australian open tennis champion Novak Djokovic beamed his support via video link.
But the protest turned deadly when several hundred hooded protesters broke away from that 500,000-strong crowd. The smaller group hurled rocks and molotov cocktails at the Croatian and U.S. embassies. Flames licked up to the second floor of the old brick building which is located in the heart of the capital. Serbian paramilitary police, arriving in Humvees, dispersed the crowd using tear gas. But firefighters later discovered a charred body in a lower room. The embassy had been largely empty at the time and it was not immediately clear whether the body was that of a protester or an embassy employee. Speaking at the United Nations, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad condemned the attack, saying he would seek a U.N. resolution "reminding the Serb government of its rsponsibility to protect diplomatic facilities."

The procession had started at the Parliament, wending its way through damp Belgrade streets to the monumental St. Sava Church, the largest Serbian Orthodox church in the Balkans. There, high priests delivered "prayers for Kosovo." The former Russian dissident and Nobel Laureate Aleksander Solzhenitsyn sent greetings from his home in the U.S. state of Vermont, calling on Serbs to "stand by your graves." (Kosovo is the site of a famous defeat at the hands of the Ottomans that is deemed a cradle of Serbian identity.)

Thursday's demonstration follows a week of orchestrated outrage, during which, among other things, no fewer than ten McDonald's outlets were vandalized, and a local supermaket chain was targeted because of its Slovenian owners (Slovenia currently holds the rotating EU presidency), as were Albanian sweet shops and bakeries. (Albania has consistently supported the secession struggle of Kosovo's ethnic Albanian majority.) More than 80 people were injured in those protests, most of them police.

In the Serb-dominated northern part of Kosovo, meanwhile, Kosovo Serbs descended on two border posts, torching one and blowing up the other, before NATO troops from the territory's 16,000-strong peacekeeping force arrived to take control of the posts. There were no casualties. Local Serbian leader Marko Jaksic, the head of the self-styled Serbian National Council in the northern town of Mitrovica, justified the attacks, saying that Serbs will not tolerate "symbols of a monster state" on their territory.

Serb anger was intensified by the European Union's decision this week to dispatch up to 2,000 civilian experts to help administer the newly declared state, a move that most Serbs see as a form of recognition because the mission will likely replace the United Nations–approved administration in the territory. (The EU failed to reach unanimity on the issue, leaving the decision up to its member states.) Serbia's ambassadors have been recalled from the U.S., France, and other countries that have recognized Kosovo's independence.

"We are struggling for what is legitimately ours. We will not tolerate this illegal act of secession," Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic told European lawmakers in the French city of Strasbourg.

Although Kosovo's declaration of independence has been expected for months, the scale of the response — both among Serbs and by foreign governments opposed to the decision — has surprised many. It is not clear how long the protests will be sustained, but for many Kosovo Albanians, as well as U.N., EU and NATO officials in the territory, it has gone on long enough.

"Some local leaders took a huge responsibility yesterday," the French general in charge of NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo said on Wednesday after violent protests in northern Kosovo. "The leaders should think deeply of their responsibility when they trigger this type of demonstration."

But Serbs opposing Kosovo's independence will certainly take heart from the fact that Russia, China and a number of European Union members, including Cyprus, Spain, Romania and Slovakia, have refused to recognize the new state. Russia and China can block Kosovo's access to the United Nations and other multilateral organizations, and the refusal of some EU member states to recognize the country could complicate decision-making over the future EU mission in the territory. Opponents of independence fear that the move will set a dangerous precedent for separatists elsewhere, and Russia has been particularly vigorous in its opposition to what it sees as Western encroachment on its traditional sphere of influence.

The more immediate danger, however, is the prospect of a partition of Kosovo itself, and the potential confrontation that could ignite. The Serbian majority that lives in the northern part of the territory refuse to recognize the authority of the central government in Pristina, and insists on remaining part of Serbia. Belgrade supports the civil administration of that territory, and plans to increase spending on the Serb population there. While Belgrade said it did not order the attacks on border posts, Serbian Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic called them "legitimate" and "in accordance with the government's policy."

The impact of the Kosovo move on Serbia's domestic politics has been to strengthen the hand of nationalists who would like to see Serbia turn away from Europe and towards Moscow. The recognition of Kosovo by many European Union members, said Energy Minister Aleksander Popovic in a recent interview, could sour Serbs on the idea of joining the EU any time soon. Popovic likened the situation to a groom discovering something unsavory about his betrothed on the eve of marriage. "What do you do then?" he asked.
Time
Don't make the mistake, when in Barcelona, of assuming you're in Spain: The locals in the enchanting Mediterranean coastal city, and the triangle-shaped territory around it, cite Catalan as their national identity. In conversations across the spectrum — young and old, leftist and right-wing, gay and straight, a retired couple near Tarragona and a Moroccan immigrant in Vic — the upcoming Spanish elections are discussed as if they're taking place in a foreign country. "For Catalonia, it is better if�" was how the typical response began. Here, road signs and restaurant menus are written in Catalan. It's also the language of public education, in schools where the national history of Catalonia is central to the curriculum, while Spanish is taught for two hours a week as a foreign language. The region, officially called an "autonomous community," has broad leeway in establishing political and social policy. But polls show that some 35% want full independence from Madrid.
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Kosovo: Separation Anxiety

The Balkan ghosts are back: Kosovo is heading for independence, and Moscow doesn't like it

Nor are the Catalans the only regional nationalist movement pressing centuries-old linguistic, ethnic and historical claims on the forward-looking government in Madrid. In the Basque country, also endowed with extensive autonomy in the post-Franco era, separatist political sentiment remains ubiquitous, and terrorist actions by ETA continue.

And it's such long-standing fissures that pop up across the continent — many of whose modern nation states folded in diverse kingdoms and peoples — that shape Europe's responses to Kosovo's historic, and potentially precedent-setting, declaration of independence. Europe is divided over whether to recognize the new would-be nation on territory that has until now been recognized as part of sovereign Serbia. These divisions forced the European Union to leave it up to each member state to decide whether to recognize Kosovo's independence.

"The government of Spain will not recognize the unilateral act proclaimed yesterday by the assembly of Kosovo," Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos promptly told reporters. "This does not respect international law." Similar opposition has been voiced from a list of smaller European countries that face internal independence movements of their own, or are longstanding allies of Serbia — or both: Cyprus, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria and Slovakia have rejected Kosovo's independence. It's not hard to find motivation for their stance: The Republic of Cyprus, for example, fears that Kosovo independence will give weight to Turkish Cypriot claims for dividing up the island into two separate nation states. The Foreign Minister of Slovakia, which fears unrest from its large Hungarian minority, said it "does not see a way" to recognize a Kosovar nation state.

But Europe's major powers — Britain, France and Germany — have, like the United States, encouraged Kosovo's drive for independence, citing the unique circumstances of its breakaway from Serbia. Nearly 1 million ethnic Albanians were forced to flee Serb ruler Slobodan Milosevic's attempt to "cleanse" them from the Serbian province in which they constituted more than 80% of the population. In the wake of the U.S.-led war that expelled Milosevic's troops from Kosovo, the Serbs have refused to negotiate on the future status of the territory, which the international community acknowledged remained legally part of Serbia even when it was under NATO protection and U.N. administration.

For those who support Kosovo's claims for independence, it is largely a question of giving greater weight to the "on-the-ground" reality over the claims of Serbia to Kosovo as a cradle of their national identity. To opponents, however, the question is one of international law, national sovereignty and precedent. China, for example, reacted much like the Spanish and Slovaks, worried that Taiwan could be spurred to declare independence. Russia is invested on the Serbian side both for strategic and fraternal reasons. Wary of national claims in the Caucasus and elsewhere, Russian President Putin has loudly defended Serbia, which shares the same Orthodox Christian roots as Russia. Moscow also sees Kosovo as another case of NATO encroachment into traditional spheres of Russian influence, and will likely work with China to ensure that the new state is denied recognition at the United Nations.

But the issue is most volatile in in Europe, where the collapse of Yugoslavia reignited conflicts that date from the Crusades and the Ottoman advance into Europe — conflicts in which European leaders appeared incapable of intervening to stop repeated crimes against humanity. Last November, I went to Kosovo to visit Ramadan Ilazi, who was 14 when I'd met him during the war in a refugee camp in Macedonia. He supported Kosovo's independence for historical reasons, but mostly because he thought it was the best bet for a peaceful future. "I want the path with the least amount of conflict and violence, and independence is that way," said Ilazi, now 22. "There is no perfect solution. But the Balkans should work to strengthen Europe, not be a problem for Europe." The initial responses to Kosovo's independence, however, suggest that the Balkans will remain a problem for Europe for the foreseeable future.
There's a word that comes to mind when I think of this and that word is clusterfuck.

Generally in the Balkans I am not all that sympathetic to the Serbs. While no enthic group there has what you could call clean hands (those darling little oppressed Albanians? Ran a good number of Serbs out of the south of Kosovo and burned down a number of monasteries). It was in my not so humble opinion that the Serbs have only themselves to blame for alot of the shit going on there, what with their desire to hold everyone else in the state of Greater Serbia at gunpoint. Still Shitheads A and Shitheads B is how I generally view the groups involved.

Some will of course cry about the Albanians right of self determination, okay fair enough, why don't the Serbs clustered up at the North of Kosovo get the same right? Why are they forced to remain in a Albanian state, in fortified enclaves for fear of Albanian militia when the state they want to be part of is all of 50 feet away? What are the borders of Kosovo sacred but not the borders of Serbia?

Meanwhile about half the planet is annoyed or at varying levels of freaked. No one has mentioned it yet but bet your undies that the Kurds are looking at this thoughtfully, as are the Russians in the eastern half of the Urkraine and God knows where else. Generally in most cases if I am satified we are in line with the Constitution and moral right I don't honestly give a fuck what the rest of the planet thinks, but in this case they may have a point. Where's the line here? Why does separatist group A get their own country and not separatist group B?

One last line runs in and out of my mind that sums up alot of my dissatification with this utter goat fuck of diplomacy.

If we had handled Taiwan like this Los Angeles would be glowing radioactive creator by now and so would Beijing.

#2

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:39 am
by frigidmagi
BBC
Russia's ambassador to Nato, Dmitry Rogozin, has warned that Russia could use military force if the Kosovo independence dispute escalates.

"If the EU develops a unified position or if Nato exceeds its mandate set by the UN, then these organisations will be in conflict with the UN," he said.

In that case Russia would "proceed on the basis that in order to be respected we need to use brute force", he said.

Many EU members have recognised Kosovo, but several oppose recognition.

Russia, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, backs Serbia, which has condemned the independence declaration issued by the Kosovo parliament on 17 February.

On Tuesday members of the Serb minority in Kosovo attacked two border posts staffed by UN personnel and Kosovo police.

The violence led the Nato troops in Kosovo - known as K-For - to reinforce the border with Serbia.

Kosovo's majority ethnic Albanians are following a plan drawn up by UN special envoy Martti Ahtisaari for "supervised independence", which was rejected by Serbia.

Russian media outcry

The EU will soon deploy 2,000 officials to strengthen law and order in Kosovo, which has a population of about two million. Russia argues that the mission has no legal basis.

There has been a furious reaction in some Russian media to Kosovo's declaration of independence.

A commentary in the Vesti Plus analytical programme, on state-run television, called the assassinated former Serbian Prime Minister, Zoran Djindjic, a Western puppet who had "received a well-deserved bullet".

It said Djindjic had sold national heroes to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague.

The programme concluded that Serbia - and not only Serbia - must now decide whether to acquiesce in what has happened, or resist.
Son of a Bitch!

Okay yes I know the odds of the Russians actually starting a shooting war is low but look at it, they are this comfty in talking about it! Bet your ass they're nudging their little brothers the Serbs into doing something idiotic! Why the hell didn't someone sit on the damn Albanians?

#3 EU withdraws from Kosovo as Serbia protests

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 6:04 am
by frigidmagi
telegraph
Hopes for a peaceful conclusion to the declaration of Kosovo's independence were fading as the European Union announced it had withdrawn its staff from the north of the fledgling country in the face of increasingly angry Serb protests.

The civilian staff were meant to be preparing for the EU to take over responsibility for security in Kosovo from the United Nations.
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The announcement of the withdrawal came as the United States - which backed Kosovo's drive for independence - began to evacuate its American staff and their families from Serbia, offering US citizens the chance to join a convoy of 40 cars leaving Belgrade for Croatia.

"We are not sufficiently confident that they are safe here," said US ambassador Cameron Munter. On Thursday protesters stormed and burned the US embassy in Belgrade. A week after tens of thousands of people took to the streets of the Kosovan capital Pristina to celebrate the country's unilateral declaration of independence, Kosovo is already effectively partitioned.

The mostly Serb-populated northern region around the divided town of Mitrovica, next to the Serbian border, has made it clear that it wants no part of the newborn country that Serb officials consider "illegal". The bridge on the Ibar River that divides the Albanian and the Serb parts of Mitrovica has been closed to traffic, guarded by UN police and Nato on one side, and Serb strongmen on the other.

At the same time, KFOR, the Nato-led peacekeeping force, sealed the border to Serbia, after angry mobs torched border crossings. "This is a beginning of a secession of the northern part of Kosovo," Oliver Ivanovic, a Kosovo Serb leader from Mitrovica, told The Sunday Telegraph. "I fear it will lead to attacks on the remaining Albanians living in northern Mitrovica to force them to flee across the river.

The Albanians would then retaliate on the Serbian enclaves throughout Kosovo, and the ethnic cleansing will be completed under the eyes of the international community." According to Mr Ivanovic, while the Serb government officially pledges never to accept Kosovo's independence, some individual officials and their political groups are quietly orchestrating the secession. He himself was sidelined as a moderate leader and his influence diminished as the situation escalated and Belgrade-sponsored extremists won the upper hand.

Yesterday Peter Feith, the EU's Kosovo envoy, said security concerns were behind the withdrawal of his staff from northern Kosovo. They had been preparing the ground for a 2,000-strong EU rule of law mission. "I would like to appeal to the Serb community to be generous and to turn the page and look forward to working together with us," he said. "We hope that conditions will soon allow us to resume our activities."

Slobodan Samardzic, the minister for Kosovo in the Serb government, deemed the attacks on the border crossings "legitimate" and said they were in "accordance with the Serbian government's policy." Britain, the US and other Western countries have recognised independent Kosovo as a sovereign state, prompting criticism from countries such as Russia, a staunch Serb ally, but also China and some EU members, notably Spain, who claim the move to be a dangerous precedent that would weaken the rule of international law and encourage separatist movements across the world.

In the Serb part of Mitrovica, anti-independence rallies have been held every day since the independence declaration last Sunday, in an atmosphere of increasing tension and lawlessness instigated by Belgrade-paid agitators. Serbian government officials address the angry crowds as rocks, bottles and fireworks are being hurled at the UN police guarding the bridge, while thugs in track suits and leather jackets cruise the town as self-appointed guardians of security.

Officers of the Kosovo Police Service (KPS), the multi-ethnic police force which serves in northern Mitrovica, said they will no longer take orders from Pristina following the independence declaration and have vowed to swap their uniforms for those of the Serbian police. "I did not join the force to serve an illegal Albanian state. The capital of my state is Belgrade, as stipulated by the United Nations Resolution 1244.

I will soon change this uniform for a Serbian one and continue to serve my people," a KPS officer serving in Mitrovica told the Sunday Telegraph under the condition of anonymity. On the street dotted with Serbian and Russian flags and banners with anti-independence slogans, the police officer was engaged in a cordial conversation with one of the thugs known as 'bridge watchers', whose job is to make sure no Albanian crosses the bridge. He said: "We will not create incidents but we will not tolerate any form of Albanian rule. This is and it will always remain Serbia. We may be small, but we have the full support of Serbia and Russia. And we have weapons, should we be forced to protect ourselves."

Russia has already threatened to use force in Kosovo, and Serbia has sent dozens of busloads of protesters to support the rallies in the north. But following several days of unrest, KFOR decided to seal the border and halt the influx of potential protesters from Serbia. "We have issued orders not to let buses through or any individuals who could pose a potential threat to the security of Kosovo. We are also fully able and ready to prevent any clashes between Serbs and Albanians, "a KFOR spokesperson said.

Indeed, dozens of armoured vehicles and tanks have been deployed at key points in the border region, after Belgrade officials announced that they would march into Kosovo in their thousands — albeit for peaceful rallies. "KFOR troops are trained and well-equipped to answer any challenges coming from inside or outside of Kosovo," a radio advertisement, paid for by KFOR, warns Serbian listeners.

But Mr Ivanovic, is sceptical. "In case of real clashes KFOR will first protect themselves and then come to count the causalities. The Serbs here have access to weapons, and I know that the Albanians living on this side of the river have recently been armed. "I see no reason for optimism."
I'm gonna repeat the question. Why do Albanians have the right to run away from Serbs but Serbs don't have the right to run away from Albanians?

I say let the Serbs stay with Serbia if that's what they want. I also say this is still a complete clusterfuck that should not have happened.

#4

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:45 pm
by General Havoc
Albanians have the right to run away from Serbs because of the minor fact that the Serbs attempted to kill them all.

More than once.

This is not a matter of a few minor riots, this is a matter of controlled, planned, executed genocide, not merely against the Albanians in Kosovo, but against every single minority that was ever living in the former Yugoslavia. Bosnians, Croats, Slovenians, Albanians, everybody. There are only so many intentional genocides you can undertake as a nation before the rest of the world steps in and says No, you are NOT allowed to keep that territory any more because you always kill everyone in it. After six consecutive attempts at ethnic cleansing, the Serbs have worn out their welcome as far as I am concerned in claims to "historical boundaries". Do you actually think for one minute that if Kosovo was left a part of Serbia, that the Serbs would not, as soon as it was convenient, begin slaughtering all of the Albanian Kosovars they could get their hands on again? Because they already tried. Three times. It took a bombing campaign and international war crimes tribunals to get them to stop.

Three times.

Yes, I feel bad for the Serbs who live in Northern Kosovo, who are now likely to be on the receiving end of retaliations. Yes, I think it makes sense to re-adjust the border a bit in favor of leaving the Serbs in Serbia. No, I have NO SYMPATHY WHATSOEVER for the Serbians who believe that Kosovo itself should be left as part of Serbia because if it isn't then who will they get to slaughter and brutalize? That is what this is about. This is not about every little ethnic minority getting to declare independence. This is not about Catalonia, Northern Cyprus, or Cornwall. The Spanish are not presently attempting to ethnically cleanse Catalonia. Nor are the Moldavians attempting to do the same to Transdneistria. The Serbs ARE and HAVE BEEN attempting to do this to the Kosovars, not once, but many many many times in the very recent past. The instant the NATO and UN troops leave, they will try to do so again. That supersedes the Serbian claim to Kosovo based on a seven-hundred year old battle. How many times are we going to let this nonsense happen in the heart of Europe before we say "Enough! You have LOST YOUR PRIVILEGES TO THIS REGION!"

And as to the clusterfuck claim, there's a word for policies that hold that we should not do what is right and not stand up for threatened minorities because of what another hostile large power will think. We call it "appeasement." The Russians don't give a damn about the Kosovars, they give a damn about their interests, which are to show themselves capable of standing up to the west in defense of their clients. Because if we're gonna make policy based on not doing what will make the Russians angry, then we should just tell them to take Estonia and Latvia and Lithuania back. After all, those are all "Historical Russian Territories", aren't they? How about the Ukraine too? After all, who gives a damn about the endless cycles of massacres every time the Russians take over that country, they don't deserve to be independent because Russia doesn't like that they are. Lucky for the Poles that they were never claimed to be intrinsically part of a larger, stronger power, right?

Oh wait....

This has nothing whatsoever to do with every little piddly minority breaking away from their home country. This has to do with the fact that after a CERTAIN POINT, you draw the goddamn line. Three attempted genocides in less than fifteen years is beyond the goddamn line. At that point, if the victims wish to be independent, you fucking let them go. Yes, there's going to be violence, yes, there's going to be chaos, yes, Russia and Serbia will condemn this to high hell, yes there should probably be re-adjustment of the borders because if we're carving countries apart, let's do it sanely.

No, we do not back down from this simply because the very same people who wished committed genocide shipped in thugs to whip up more violence. That's like claiming that Serbia has a natural right to murder all the Albanians in Kosovo.

And before you say it, yes, the Albanians too have committed crimes, but I have not read anything about the massive, organized, planned genocides and ethnic cleansing campaigns resulting in tens and hundreds of thousands of dead Serbs all over Kosovo and Serbia. When I read about those, then we can talk about the "historical rights of Serbia". Not before.

#5

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:52 pm
by General Havoc
Didn't see this thread. My comment is in the other Kosovo thread which I cannot figure out how to link here.

#6

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 7:16 pm
by LadyTevar
Threads Merged.

#7

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 8:20 pm
by frigidmagi
I hate to burst your bubble Havoc but the Albanians in Kosovo have been just has happy to kill Serbs and burn their homes to the ground as the Serbs have been to kill Albanians and burn their homes to the ground. So this isn't a group of innocent abused victims this is a group of folks that was losing due to inferior numbers and a lack of patrons until we showed up (the Russians being the bastards that they are were more then happy to supply guns and 'volunteers' to the Serbs, course alot of Russian deserters in the 90s went to fight for the Serbs to).

This is nowhere near has black and white as CNN makes it and any digging or God forbid talking to the guys who went there (I didn't, but I had a Sgt who did, this is where I got the inclination to refer to them as Shitheads A and Shitheads B) would tell you that. Yeah the Serbs were bastards and they don;t generally get that much sympathy from me. On the flip side the Albanians didn't behave much better they were just unlucky enough to be weaker, this doesn't give them some shiney moral high ground.

As for the singing about principal and standing up to nuclear armed bullies. It's a nice tune. But why sing it over Kosovo and not sing it over Taiwan? Or Cyrus? Or the Kurds in Turkey? Or the Basque in Spain and so on and so forth. No one has yet explained to me why Kosovo and the Albanians are more special then the others. Don't scream about the Basque in Spain or the Kurds being terrorist because the Albanians did plenty of violence on their own and the Turks have a tradition of burning down Kurdish villages. The situations are pretty much the same.

This also conveniently forgets that we had troops on the ground protecting the Albanians. The fighting was done because we had rifles pointed at everyone. The Albanians in Kosovo were in no danger, nor were they gonna be in the foreseeable future. They made their screaming little declaration and now we all find ourselves holding lit matches next to a pool of gas because of it. Like I said Clusterfuck.

Frankly though, it's like this. The Kosovoians have made their declaration and we chose for whatever reason to back them up. It's to late to change course now. However, there is no reason to force the northern Serbs of that province to be a part of Kosovo. Let them stay part of Serbia, it's what they want and bluntly it'll be hypocritical to force them to stay part of Kosovo and one hell of a messy job with no damn point. Let them walk.

#8

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:21 pm
by General Havoc
As I said several times already, I am aware that the Albanians have been more than willing to commit acts of equal violence and bloodshed. The issue is not which side has the most assholes. BOTH sides have plenty of assholes The issue is that the Albanians did not make it a government policy to annihilate every living Serb in existence, as the Serbs did for five different minorities I could mention. The Serbian government has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that given any excuse, they will deploy the full weight of a government towards the annihilation of anyone they like. Under such conditions, it is absolutely permissable for minorities to break away from the central authority. If the US government made it policy to kill every living resident of Idaho, I would expect Idaho to secede. The issue is not which group of people on the spot are the biggest assholes, that can only be solved with troops on the ground. The issue is why exactly Kosovo had to essentially be torn away from Serbia in the first place, and not just Kosovo but Bosnia and every other part of Yugoslavia.

There is in fact a difference between angry mobs shooting at one another, and governmental policy advocating ethnic cleansing. The former results in deaths and tragedies, the latter in genocide. In the 700 years since Kosovo became part of Serbia, there has not been a moment when it has not at one point or another been Serbian policy to wipe the Kosovars out. More specifically, for the last going on 20 years, it has been Serbian government policy to kill everyone that gets in the way of "Greater Serbia", or have you forgotten Milosivec's gang?

As it happens, I DO sing the same tune regarding Taiwan, and a few other would-be breakaway states I could mention. Cyprus is a weirder situation than the one above that I know insufficient amounts about to speak to, but the big difference here is not that the Basques or the Kurds are terrorists (which some of them are) but the Basques and Kurds are not presently threatened with genocide from (respectively) the Spanish and the Turks (unlike with the Armenians). The Kosovars manifestly are. I have never advocated that every minority group with a grudge should be allowed to break away, but when your alternatives are "annihilation" and "independence", I tend to be fairly liberal on the independence side. And whatever you may think about the situation there now with UN and NATO troops on the ground, the instant those troops are no longer there, it will re-commence. It has in every corner of Yugoslavia since 1991.

The place has been a clusterfuck since the end of WWI. This declaration did not change that one way or another. One day, we will no longer have troops in Kosovo. On that day, I would rather see Kosovo independant and with its own armed forces, because if I do not, then the Serbian government with the Russians supporting them will simply march right back in and exterminate every Albanian in the country.

And it does not matter if the Albanians would do the same in their place, because the Albanians are in no position to do so. Kosovo is not becoming part of Albania, but its own country. Yes, this makes life problematic for the Serbs living in the country, which is why I'm fine with splitting the Serb-dominated parts of northern Kosovo off and matching them up with Serbia. Just because the borders need adjusting however, does not mean that the country should not be independent.

You can only make the annihilation of a country your government policy for so long before you lose all rights to have that country subject to your government. And moreover, you still haven't responded to my question back to you. If this isn't grounds for the independence of Kosovo, then what grounds does Estonia have to be independent? What grounds does the Ukraine? What grounds does Poland? Ireland? What grounds does the rest of the former Yugoslavia? I have no doubt that Serbia would love to get Bosnia, Croatia, and Slovenia back after all.

If Genocide ISN'T a valid reason to declare independence, then what exactly is?

#9

Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:18 pm
by frigidmagi
Albanians did not make it a government policy to annihilate every living Serb in existence,
That was frankly impossible for them to do since they didn't have a bloody government at the damn time. Which makes it easy for them to met your criteria doesn't it? So this doesn't carry much weight with me. What I look at instead is the actions of the armed groups (many of whom are now in the Kosovian parliament) and uniformly their policy was one of killing Serbs burning their homes and acting like savages. While according to the papers the moderates have control of Kosovo now, I don't expect it last, not when Serbian gangs and thugs come calling.
More specifically, for the last going on 20 years, it has been Serbian government policy to kill everyone that gets in the way of "Greater Serbia", or have you forgotten Milosivec's gang?
That policy ended when Milosivec was thrown out of power by the Serbs and handed over to the Hague, or did you forget that fact? The Albanians are no longer in danger of genocide and haven't been for years. Especially since there was a NATO ground force of 15,000 there to keep them safe, one that was slated to remain there indefinetly. This justification would have been fine and revelant say back in 90s but today it's a bit late.
As it happens, I DO sing the same tune regarding Taiwan, and a few other would-be breakaway states I could mention.
I've posted stories of Taiwan on this board and I haven't heard you say a damn thing but in all fairness you don't speak much in N&P so I'll let it slide. Can you link me to an example on another board or anywhere else? But as for Taiwan, while I am vastly more on the side of the Taiwanese then the PRC tyrants of the mainline. I do not favor a war that may or may not go nuclear and will potentionally kill hundreds of millions just so Taiwan can wave a piece of paper declaring legal independence to go with their de facto independence. In this Kosovo's declaration is risking a possibility of war as well. How many dead Europeans and Americans is the legal independence of Kosovo worth? Especially since they were automotus from Serbia already and pretty much functionally independent as a EU protectorate.
Cyprus is a weirder situation than the one above that I know insufficient amounts about to speak to,
Then I will remove it from the table so to speak, I don't it would be fair to ask you take a position on a subject you haven't any information on.
but when your alternatives are "annihilation" and "independence",
I'll say it again. Their alternatives are not annihilation or independence. It is a false choice considering that steps have already been taken to protect them. With Russia declaring it is considering using force and Serbia practically gearing up to, we will have to send troops to protect them. At this point there is no moral alternative. Understand me clearly here, now that Kosovo has declared independence, I feel we have no other choice but to support them. Especially in light of our recogization of their new mini-state. My call is that I will not support keeping the Serbian North in Kosovo by the threat of force which is so far what seems to be policy and I frankly and bluntly ask if the peice of paper is going to be worth the blood.

Consider again, they were already de facto independent from Serbia. They had the power to make their own laws, raise their own taxes and elect their own representatives. They had an armed force protecting them which was unlikely to le4ave for generations. This was an unnecessary risk and since it's going to be people I know and care for paying for this step I am not fucking happy and I call it by it's name. A clusterfuck.

#10

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:43 am
by frigidmagi
BBC
The man tipped to succeed Vladimir Putin as Russian president is due in Serbia, as the two countries continue to oppose Kosovan independence.

Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev is travelling to the capital, Belgrade, with Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov.

The Russian foreign ministry has accused the United States of "flagrant cynicism" in recognising Kosovo's declaration of independence a week ago. The issue sparked protests in Belgrade last week.

Correspondents say that, with Mr Medvedev the favourite to win next month's presidential election in Russia, the high-powered nature of Russia's delegation is a sign of the strength of the country's backing for Serbia.

He and Mr Lavrov are scheduled to hold talks with Serbian President Boris Tadic and Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica.

See a map of Kosovo's ethnic breakdown

"Do support for the Kosovo Albanian side alone, contempt for law for the sake of so-called 'political expediency', and indifference to the fate of 100,000 Serbs who... are effectively being driven into a ghetto, not amount to flagrant cynicism?" Russia's foreign ministry asked in a statement on Sunday.

The statement followed a comment by US Assistant Secretary of State Nicholas Burns, who accused Russia of aggravating tensions over the Kosovo issue.

Border posts row

Also on Monday, Belgrade government ministers are due to visit Serbian communities in Kosovo to press their message that Belgrade still regards Kosovo as its own.


A Serb nationalist shouts at a K-For soldier at protest in Kosovo
Serbs have turned against those who recognise the new Kosovo

EU fired up by Kosovo
Anger mounts in Mitrovica
Serbian Minister for Kosovo Slobodan Samardzic will lead the delegation.

But reports suggest Mr Samardzic will be denied entry until he apologises for comments seemingly condoning violence.

Mr Samardzic described the burning down of two border posts on 19 February by crowds of Kosovan Serbs as "legitimate" acts.

Two days later, western embassies were attacked in Belgrade, acts which Mr Samardzic blamed on the US for accepting Kosovo's declaration of independence last Sunday.

"The US is the major culprit for all troubles since 17 February," Mr Samardzic told the state news agency Tanjug.

"The root of violence is the violation of international law."

Well-informed sources have suggested Mr Samardzic will be asked to apologise for these comments before being allowed into Kosovo, says the BBC's central Europe reporter Nick Thorpe.

Mitrovica fears

Kosovo remained calm on Sunday, and Prime Minister Hashim Thaci marked the first week of independence with a visit to the grave of Kosovo's late president, Ibrahim Rugova.

Mr Thaci used the occasion to call on Kosovo's Serbian minority to integrate.

But the ethnically divided town of Mitrovica was bracing itself for more tension.

Albanian staff have been prevented from returning to work at the town's UN-administered court on safety grounds, while Serbs who used to work there are demanding their old jobs back.

Any attempt by the Serbs to use force to occupy the building would be a test of UN resolve to maintain at least a semblance of multi-ethnic administration in the troubled northern town, says our correspondent.