Page 1 of 1

#1 Congress: Why should each military branch get same budget?

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:05 pm
by frigidmagi
CSM
Washington - The defense budget has been sliced into virtually the same-sized pieces for decades, with roughly equal shares of resources going to the Army, Air Force, and Navy. In a move analysts say is sure to strike fear among some services, Congress this week will begin asking why.

A bipartisan House panel is nudging the Pentagon to begin a conversation on how to reform itself in many ways. But at the Pentagon, talk of change usually has a budgetary impact.

And, despite the past several years of "nation-building" and counterinsurgency operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, there has been virtually no change in the way the defense budget is carved up in at least 40 years, says Rep. Jim Cooper (D) of Tennessee, who chairs the panel.

"That right there is a statistical indictment of the process," Representative Cooper says. "There had to be a year in which there were greater needs in one area or another, and the system was unable to accommodate it."

The fiscal 2009 budget request released this month, for example, shows the Army requesting a 27 percent share, the Air Force asking for a 28 percent share, and the Navy, which includes the Marine Corps, wanting a 29 percent share of the proposed $515 billion budget.

Cooper's seven-member panel is expected to release a study this week on each of the branches' "roles and missions" that may threaten services that are seen to perform more conventional warfare. With the focus on the ground wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, that makes some in the Navy and Air Force worry.

Cooper hopes the study will spark a broader debate about the need to reform national security, with new emphases on cybersecurity and nonmilitary government agencies. The panel isn't recommending specific changes to the budget as much as it is raising concerns about the Pentagon's historical aversion to change. More specifically, some services are clinging to a version of warfare the panel believes is dated.

"There should be vociferous support from inside the services, since the military has been left carrying the burden of the failures of our national security institutions," reads a draft of the report, to be released Thursday. "Instead, our military has resisted change just as they have past efforts at reform. The Air Force and Navy are reemphasizing more traditional threats and downplaying the unexpected threats we face today."

In fact, the Navy has tried to emphasize its so-called soft-power capabilities to combat terrorism, and senior Air Force officials seek to remind Congress that conventional threats, like those presented by China, still remain.

Congress is asking the same questions that many in and out of uniform have raised for some time. "After seven years of war, that we haven't budged one inch away from the cold war apportionment of the budget to me is Kafka-esque," said Robert Scales Jr., a retired Army major general, speaking last week at a think tank. "I just can't explain it. I don't understand."

The Pentagon has begun its own internal review of roles and missions. But with budgetary planners essentially in limbo until a new administration arrives next year, it's unclear how much impact such discussions will have, says Loren Thompson, a senior analyst at The Lexington Institute, a think tank outside Washington.

It may serve to create a debate in anticipation of the broader effort to review the nation's strategic planning document, the Quadrennial Defense Review (QDR). But when all is said and done, it's likely that things will remain largely the same, Mr. Thompson says.

"My guess is, when the roles and missions and QDR processes are complete, the historic share of the services will not change much in the defense budget," he says.

But such talk of budgetary reform can sound like fighting words to some inside the Pentagon, as Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, acknowledged earlier this month during hearings on Capitol Hill.

"What I worry about in this ... is that, not done well, it has a tendency to turn services against each other," Admiral Mullen said.

And moving money from one service to another can be politically insurmountable. Each service, with its own political constituency on Capitol Hill, carefully guards what belongs to it.

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have emphasized the need for ground troops, leading to focus on the Army and Marine Corps. Meanwhile, while the Navy and Air Force both contribute much to operations overseas, they are seen as virtual "silent partners."

That has forced both services to step up their marketing efforts. The Navy is holding events it calls "Conversations with the Country" in an effort to call attention to its new maritime strategy, which focuses on fighting terrorism in untraditional ways. And the Air Force on Sunday launched a new ad campaign to highlight the allure of the nation's air superiority, employing a marketing theme titled "Above All."
Man, I swore I would never do this but... I'm gonna rip off Clinton.

It's the Logistics Stupid.

Look the navy and the airforce ship most of the crap overseas and maintain and secure the supply lines. To do that they need to be able to project a damn large amount of force across the entire globe. Otherwise a big nasty army becomes kinda pointless.

Also, yes there are no conventional threats in the short term capable of hurting us. The reason for that is because we invest so much in our Air Force and Navy. Right now however... Our F-15s are being grounded, we have ships being mothedballed. Ladies and Gentlemen we should be spending to get more F-22s and modern destroyers and cruisers to ensure that any possible conventional threat, remains just vaguely possible.

#2

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:06 pm
by Batman
Excuse me, since when is China a serious conventional threat?

#3

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:47 am
by frigidmagi
Since it's upgrading it's military and we wouldn't be able to fight it with all of our military force.

Bats you gotta realize that military planners look at future trends and don't just lock in the present. The trend is a modernizing Chinese force that is creating weapons and tactics specially aimed at removing US advantages over it. Frankly that just makes sense for China to do (who else is a major threat to them?) it's not a overt sign of hostility. But that means it also makes sense for us to be prepared for a furball with them.

#4

Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:21 pm
by Batman
frigidmagi wrote:Since it's upgrading it's military and we wouldn't be able to fight it with all of our military force.
Since they as of right now and for the foreseeable future have neither a way nor an interest in facing you in an all-out conventional war, who cares?
Valen China has no interest in facing you in war PERIOD because even in a nuclear exchange, they'd lose big time.
The only way you'd have to deal with all of the Chinese military would be if you were trying to invade them.
Bats you gotta realize that military planners look at future trends and don't just lock in the present. The trend is a modernizing Chinese force that is creating weapons and tactics specially aimed at removing US advantages over it.
Yeah, they're trying to specifically beat the US. As opposed to trying to stay current and if they can a step ahead in the high-tech weapons department in general.
Frankly that just makes sense for China to do (who else is a major threat to them?)
Russia. Which unlike the US are actually in a position (geographically speaking) to invade them.
it's not a overt sign of hostility. But that means it also makes sense for us to be prepared for a furball with them.
Which means you need to stay ahead on technology. Not numbers.
When, incidentally, you're currently cutting down on both from what I can tell.
Seriously, how likely is a war between the US and China?

#5

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:44 pm
by frigidmagi
Since they as of right now and for the foreseeable future have neither a way nor an interest in facing you in an all-out conventional war, who cares?
Because not planning for unforeseeable conflicts gets you in trouble. There have been plenty of unforeseen wars. There have also been wars that occur despite the best efforts of the various leaders involved. There have been wars that happen by accident and wars that were in no one's best interest.

WWI? Whose interest was that in exactly?

Those who plan only for the foreseen conflict are exposing their people to danger and way to often they get excaltly what they deserve for letting their guard down.

Valen China has no interest in facing you in war PERIOD because even in a nuclear exchange, they'd lose big time.
Pull your head out. Just because there's a war doesn't mean it is going to go nuclear.

Yeah, they're trying to specifically beat the US. As opposed to trying to stay current and if they can a step ahead in the high-tech weapons department in general.
Considering that we're their only real worry. Yes, it is fucking stupid not to think that Chinese development is aimed at negating US advantages.
Russia. Which unlike the US are actually in a position (geographically speaking) to invade them.
...
...
...

Okay I'm going to try and explain why that was dumb. First lets look at logistics. Siberia verus Northern China. It is easier for China to move men and material to Northern China then it is for Russia to do the same to Siberia. There are more roads (and better ones), more railroad lines, more airports and so on in Northern China then Siberia. To put it bluntly Trying to invade China from Siberia is sorta like trying to invade Russia from Germany. It just won't work out well for you.

Second, distance. You have looked at a map right Bats? Siberia is futher apart from the centers of production and population in Russia then North China is from the centers in China. This means not only do the Chinese have transportation advantages, they have the advantages of shorter distance.

For those of you not following me this means that it is easier for China to transport mass amounts of men, tanks and jets into the warzone and keep them supplied. Keeping them supplied is the key, as tanks are useless without gas, spare parts and ammo and men don't fight well if they don't have food.

Now let's look at the actual militaries involved. They use much the same gear, in fact China has permission to produce a wide variety of Russian equipment. So the gear is an even wash. No advantage to either side.

The Russian military is recovering the nadir of the 90s and regaining it's pride and professionalism. It also has combat veterans from the various campaigns it waged in Central Asia. The Chinese military is vast, well equipped and trained and is in the middle of modernizing. While the Chinese are not has ragged from the recent trouble of the Russian military nor has corrupt, the Russians can make up for that with having actual vets. I'll call this tie.

However, the tie is broken by one insanely large advantage. The Chinese have more men. Lots more men. Frightening amounts of lots more men. The level of outnumberness is the kind you usually only see in a military man's nightmare and to make it worse Russia has no tech or doctrine advantage.

Frankly Russia is in danger from Chinese invasion. Not the other way around. Even if the Russians were dumb enough to try invading China, they would quickly find out they have stranded their armies in an area they are ill equipped to support them in, meanwhile China would be able to move their armies around quickly and they would have more of those armies. This is a clear cut case of the map not being the territory.

But then there's politics. You may have maybe noticed that a few years back that Russia and China held the biggest war games ever together? Or a few other minor details like various pacts and diplomatic deals? Russia and China are coming together to counterbalance what they see has an overabundance of American power. They're not going to fight each other because that in their eyes would ensure an American victory and control over Asia.
Which means you need to stay ahead on technology. Not numbers.
Since there is no way in hell we can match China's numbers that would seem the safe bet. Technology costs money. That means the Air Force and the Navy need cold hard cash in order to amp up the tech advantage.

When, incidentally, you're currently cutting down on both from what I can tell.
What the hell do you think the F-22 is? A step backwards?
Seriously, how likely is a war between the US and China?
You would have to ask Taiwan. Or North and South Korea. Or Japan. Or maybe even India. There within lies the problems. See alot of whether or not Americans and Chinese start shooting at each other is in the hands of 3rd parties, therefore it only makes sense to be prepared for a war but work to avoid it.

#6

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:50 pm
by Batman
frigidmagi wrote:
Since they as of right now and for the foreseeable future have neither a way nor an interest in facing you in an all-out conventional war, who cares?
Because not planning for unforeseeable conflicts gets you in trouble.
No it doesn't. Not planning for unlikely conflicts does. And note that I didn't say unforseeable conflicts. I said they have no interest in facing you in the forseeable future because they know very well they WOULD eventually lose.
Those who plan only for the foreseen conflict are exposing their people to danger and way to often they get excaltly what they deserve for letting their guard down.
So you basically think the US should reintroduce the draft for EVERYBODY, not just males, and devote as much of its financial and industrial potential as possible towards building a military machine that can face any threat imaginable.
Valen China has no interest in facing you in war PERIOD because even in a nuclear exchange, they'd lose big time.
Pull your head out. Just because there's a war doesn't mean it is going to go nuclear.
And I never said that. My point was that they're not likely to risk a war with the US because EVEN if it goes nuclear, they lose. Big time.
Yeah, they're trying to specifically beat the US. As opposed to trying to stay current and if they can a step ahead in the high-tech weapons department in general.
Considering that we're their only real worry. Yes, it is fucking stupid not to think that Chinese development is aimed at negating US advantages.
Oh really. So in a conventional war you can do what, exactly,to China?
Especially as at least of right now you have no interest in attacking them to begin with?
Russia. Which unlike the US are actually in a position (geographically speaking) to invade them.
SNIPPY
Point taken. So it's easier for China to invade Russia than the other way round. What does that change about Russia being in a better (or at least less sucky)position to invade China than the US?
Since there is no way in hell we can match China's numbers that would seem the safe bet. Technology costs money. That means the Air Force and the Navy need cold hard cash in order to amp up the tech advantage.
If that cash is actually spent on research/new projects. As opposed to maintaining a ludicrously large fleet.
When, incidentally, you're currently cutting down on both from what I can tell.
What the hell do you think the F-22 is? A step backwards?
Well, from a personal POV, yes. I think the YF-23 looked tons better.:razz:
But I was talking more about the continuous cutdowns ON the F/A-22 project (and the fact that the /A designation got in there to begin with when that aircraft is in in no way shape or form a dedicated attack aircraft), the cancellation of the Comanche project and the FAILURE to either fix or terminate the V-22 Osprey.
Seriously, how likely is a war between the US and China?
You would have to ask Taiwan. Or North and South Korea. Or Japan. Or maybe even India. There within lies the problems. See alot of whether or not Americans and Chinese start shooting at each other is in the hands of 3rd parties, therefore it only makes sense to be prepared for a war but work to avoid it.
No argument from me. This needs you to have a dozen carriers in active service at all times how, exactly?

#7

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:24 am
by frigidmagi
No it doesn't. Not planning for unlikely conflicts does. And note that I didn't say unforseeable conflicts. I said they have no interest in facing you in the forseeable future because they know very well they WOULD eventually lose.
Try to pay attention. China is a rising power in Asia and the world. The US is the current top power. This creates friction. This creates the possibility of war. This means you damn well have better planned for it.
So you basically think the US should reintroduce the draft for EVERYBODY, not just males, and devote as much of its financial and industrial potential as possible towards building a military machine that can face any threat imaginable.
Having fun burning the strawman? Not to mention putting words in my mouth. Or ignoring that my voice is one the loudest against a US draft. This is beneath you Bats and I expect better.
Oh really. So in a conventional war you can do what, exactly,to China?
China's airforce and navy are not currently good enough to stop the US. In a conventional war you would see a systematic destruction of Chinese war making ability and quite likely the destruction of much of their logistical capability.
But I was talking more about the continuous cutdowns ON the F/A-22 project (and the fact that the /A designation got in there to begin with when that aircraft is in in no way shape or form a dedicated attack aircraft), the cancellation of the Comanche project and the FAILURE to either fix or terminate the V-22 Osprey.
I agree that the cut down of the F-22 was a bad idea. A massively bad idea. I also agree on the V-22 Osprey as this board has heard me kick and scream about that piece of shit more then once. I am sad to say Bats you are dead wrong on the Comanche. It was a boondoggle and it was canceled because it didn't work and couldn't be made to work. Yeah the CGI concepts videos looked cool, but that's about it.
What does that change about Russia being in a better (or at least less sucky)position to invade China than the US?
I get the feeling you weren't paying attention. Russia is not in a better position to invade China then the US. The US has a better logistics set up then Russia (look at those bases all over the Pacific and local area, like say Japan for example). Better gear then China, better doctrine then China and more combat experience then the average Chinese trooper. While Russia would have problems supplying it's divisions. Our navy could keep an American bridgehead supplied for years as you should have fucking noticed given American troops go anywhere on the globe that our government fancies and with very few supply problems. We've spent decades working out and laying down the needed training and equipment for overseas deployment and battle. That's why the US can overrun Afghanistan and Iraq.

And to forestall your almost inevitable snippy comment about current issues in Iraq and Afghanistan. We are doing better then any other nation on the planet could or has in the same situation.

As opposed to maintaining a ludicrously large fleet.
So you cry that we're not making enough but then say we have to much? Inconsistent much? Not to mention you forget that by treaty there are suppose to be American aircraft stationed in Korea, Japan, parts of Europe and commonsense dictates that aircraft be stated within in our territory for basic defense.

As for the navy, the USN has to move all the equipment and supplies to maintain thousands of people overseas (for the record most of the supplies in Iraq are shipped in, not flown in). On every continent with native human inhabitents. This requires alot of ships. Those ships have to be guarded. This means a goodly number of warships. Now we can design a fleet meant solely to guard the transport means more risk then a fleet designed to ensure that any enemy that attempts to even constest the ocean gets ripped.
This needs you to have a dozen carriers in active service at all times how, exactly?
The USN has to be active in every ocean. Because we have people in need of supply pretty much near every ocean. 12 carriers to secure the Pacific, Atlantic, and Indian oceans isn't that big of a number, especially considering that at best 1/2 to 1/3 of the USN would be expected to fight off the entire navies of other nations, but it does the job.

Batman, the military isn't set up this way for shit and giggles, it's set up this way because of the logic demanded by it's operations and deployments around the world. I would suggest you sit back and review the data again because your conclusions are a bit off.

#8

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:39 am
by Destructionator XV
China isn't a threat to the US right now basically because of the Navy. It is just like frigidmagi is saying: our Navy could kick their navy's ass and keep our army supplied at the same time.

Their huge army would simply be at the bottom of the Pacific if they actually tried to invade the US. Their navy and air forces wouldn't do much better.

#9

Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:06 pm
by SirNitram
The army over land is simply a joke for China. They can march across wastelands to the North into Russian defenses, they can hike the Himalaya's to run into India's sheer numbers, or go south into areas no one's been able to fight in effectively for centuries.