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BBC

Israel has declared that a rocket attack by Palestinian militants on the southern town of Sderot was a "grave violation" of a six-day-old truce.

No injuries were reported after at least two rockets were fired from Gaza, the first since the agreement came into force in the Hamas-run territory.

Israel says it may now re-impose economic sanctions against Gaza.

Islamic Jihad said it carried out the attack to avenge an Israeli raid in the West Bank in which two died.

The two Palestinians were killed in an Israeli military operation in a university building in the West Bank town of Nablus.

Islamic Jihad said one of the dead was one of its senior fighters.

Local reports said the other man was a student, and not a militant. The Israeli army said both men were armed.

Hamas call

One of the rockets fired at Sderot hit the back garden of a house, while another landed in open ground, police in the town said.

There were no injuries, officers said, although two people were treated for shock.

Aftermath of the rocket strike

The Israeli government had previously warned it would respond with considerable force if any of the Palestinian groups resumed violence.

Hamas, the main Palestinian faction in Gaza, has urged all sides to respect the ceasefire.

Speaking at a donors' conference in Berlin, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said it was "essential for the ceasefire to be sustained".

"Whatever damage has been done to the process, that damage should be undone as quickly as possible," he said.

A spokesman for Islamic Jihad accused the Israelis of breaking the ceasefire with its operation in Nablus.

Map
The group had earlier said attacks on its militants in the West Bank could jeopardise the truce in Gaza.

While the West Bank is not covered by the truce, correspondents say incidents like these have put a strain on similar ceasefires in the past.

The Israeli army said the Islamic Jihad member, Tareq Abu Ghali, had been planning a bomb attack and that troops had found weapons and explosives in his rooms.

The official Palestinian news agency said both men had multiple bullet wounds and that one had been shot in the head at close range.

Blockade

Meanwhile, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been holding talks with the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh.

Israeli officials say Egypt has given assurances that its Rafah border crossing with the Gaza Strip will remain closed until the case of the captured Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, is resolved.

Israel wants Sergeant Shalit to be freed as part of the truce but Hamas says the issue must be resolved through an exchange of prisoners.

Mr Mubarak said his government was trying to secure the release of the soldier, who has been held by Palestinian militants in Gaza for the past two years.

The Egyptian-brokered truce between Israel and Hamas in Gaza started on 19 June and is supposed to last six months.

It is designed to halt Israeli incursions into the Gaza Strip, and to stop missiles being fired from Gaza into southern Israel.

If it holds, Israel will ease its blockade on Gaza and there may be further talks on a prisoner exchange.

And it lasted a whole 6 days.

I'm surprised it lasted six days.

Right now, even if Hamas handed over those who fired the rocket, Israel's got all the ammo it needs to say "Nope, you broke it, we get to be dicks again."

Yes, I called the Israel government dicks. Unlike the US Government, I believe that Israel's just as guilty in this little mess as the Palestinians.

LadyTevar wrote: Yes, I called the Israel government dicks. Unlike the US Government, I believe that Israel's just as guilty in this little mess as the Palestinians.

Politicians doesn't have to pander to Muslim voters in swing states like Florida. There also isn't a lobbying organization for Muslims of the same power as AIPAC.

Right, those perfidious Jews are all out there, subtly influencing our politics and subverting our nation's electoral system...

It has nothing whatsoever to do with money, or the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization that preaches jihad, or the fact that Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. No. Our policies are obviously dictated by a conspiracy of jewish voters in Florida.

A truce was established. Israel stops invading Gaza, Hamas stops shooting rockets. Israel stopped. The rockets didn't. I understand that Hamas has their hands full trying to stop all the rockets from being fired, but I just don't see how we can take the fact that rockets were fired at Israel as evidence of Israeli malfeasance here. Israel is actually well within its rights to abrogate the truce given the fact that, as with eighty other truces in the past, the Palestinians didn't do what they said they were gonna do.

Should they abrogate the treaty? No. It would be a massive overreaction to a pair of rockets likely fired by a couple madmen, but if the treaty breaks down a couple weeks from now because Hamas continued to launch rockets unabated into Israel, thus doing precisely what they said they were going to stop doing, I fail to see how we can condemn Israel for it.

The Jews may not, but groups like CUFI do. You know, the groups that lobby to ensure Israeli politics is soaked both in money by interests of those who want the Jews exterminated in a second Holocaust and have enough weapons(Via their friends in the US DoD) to provoke it.

Or do people keep forgetting major political blocs in Israel's main ally and benefactor, the US, want to see these people all die so the ones pulling the levers get to heaven faster?

Nit... I'm sorry, you've lost me. Are you referring to those groups that think sending all the Jews to Israel will kick-start the Rapture?

General Havoc wrote:Nit... I'm sorry, you've lost me. Are you referring to those groups that think sending all the Jews to Israel will kick-start the Rapture?

Yes. I realize lots of Americans like to pretend they are small groups with no influence, but CUFI is the main group doing such, and not only is their leader a major figure in American politics(You may have heard of him, name of Hagee?) who was picked by a Republican and endorsed as a 'Man of God' by Senator Lieberman(I-Genocide), he's praised by AIPAC, the Israeli(Not Jewish) lobby.

(I feel I should note: AIPAC is NOT a Jewish lobby. It is an Israeli nationalist lobby. Major Jewish groups outside of Israel don't seem to like them much, especially in NYC. Nationalists are always unpleasant.)

Nationalists are always unpleasant.)

I'll try not to take that personally.

SirNitram wrote: Yes. I realize lots of Americans like to pretend they are small groups with no influence, but CUFI is the main group doing such, and not only is their leader a major figure in American politics(You may have heard of him, name of Hagee?) who was picked by a Republican and endorsed as a 'Man of God' by Senator Lieberman(I-Genocide), he's praised by AIPAC, the Israeli(Not Jewish) lobby.

(I feel I should note: AIPAC is NOT a Jewish lobby. It is an Israeli nationalist lobby. Major Jewish groups outside of Israel don't seem to like them much, especially in NYC. Nationalists are always unpleasant.)

I'm assuming you're refering to John Hagee here, chairman of Christians United for Israel (which I'm guessing to be CUFI). Hagee's an antisemetic, arch-conservative thug, nothing new, I'm sad to say. The fact that he was picked by a Republican has nothing to do with anything however (I don't even know which Republican you mean). He is, I believe, one of the aforementioned Rapture-wackos who believes the second coming will occur when the Jews go to Israel. Consequently he supports the state of Israel. It doesn't follow that all US support for the state of Israel is based on smoke-and-mirrors fantasies about the second coming.

The AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, is indeed not a Jewish Lobby. It's also not an Israeli Nationalist Lobby. It's a pro-Israel lobby like any other lobby, very powerful, very influential, with lots of support among many Jewish and non-Jewish groups (and plenty of criticism from others). I don't tend to be fond of lobbying groups in general, whatever their policies, but they exist, and there's hundreds of them. For some reason pro-Israel ones invite swarms of recriminations about how they're all vast conspirators that control the country, completely ignoring the fact that America supports Israel because A: There's no enormous reason for us to not (removing our support of Israel is not going to stop us from pissing off the Arabs), B: Israel has more in common with the US than any other country in the region, and C: It's a major point of influence in the area for us, one that we otherwise would have next to nothing of.

The Israel lobby has its lobbiests just like other organizations do. I find all lobbying groups to be mildly disgusting, but there are lobbying firms that support far worse premises and policies than support for Israel. AIPAC would not be at all as successful as they are if they weren't pushing something that makes a fair amount of sense and has broad support among large segments of the population, Jewish and otherwise, for better or worse. They did not foist this on us. We decided to make it our policy, and I say it's good that we did.

And incidentally, as an unrepentant American Nationalist, I'll take Frigid's line on that one. As with most things, and absolute lack of nationalism is as toxic to a society as a surplus of it.

You don't know which Republican of considerable power and respect actively sought out John 'Second Holocaust' Hagee? John McCain. You know. The would-be President.

Trying to pass him and his off as harmless is a fairly stupid thing to do when they increasingly have influence in high level politicians.

There is a list of prominent Republicans who actively sought out John Hagee as long as my arm, and it is equally stupid to assume that because John Hagee says a thing, that everyone else who says that thing must be John Hagee. I agree that Hagee is a right wing nut job. I do not agree that just because he supports Israel, that supporting Israel is thus the sole provenance of conspiracies and right wing nutjobs.

I know a man who supports Barack Obama because he believes that John McCain personally tried to assassinate him several years ago with a quantum resonance field generator in Area 51. That doesn't mean that all the support for Barack Obama is entirely grounded in wack job fantasies about Area 51. I concede to you that Hagee is a scarily influential person among certain elements of the country, particularly the Christian Right, but I fail to see how this makes US support of Israel less legitimate.

It doesn't make US support of what's essentially become a Vassal state less legitimate. However, there is a difference between lobbying both governments to begin a destructive war with the intent of genocide and the aid being legitimate.

Very simply, I am outlining why the claim you immediately started with of 'perfidious Jews' was so outrageously disengenuous that it should have been laughed out of this thread. Jews do not have some aura of incorruptability by power or money, either from external lobbying going on for decades, or the simple desires of those who might benefit from a breakdown in the truce.

Anyone who believes that Israel is a vassal state of the US has a particularly simplistic view of the world, and if you want to talk about laughable concepts that need to be tossed out of the thread, I am desperately eager to hear about the part where AIPAC is "lobbying both governments to begin a destructive war with the intent of genocide."

I am barely certain of which war you're refering to here, so I'm not sure which argument to refute, but I responded with the Perfidious Jews point because someone pointed out their belief that US support for Israel was based on Jewish swing voters in Florida. You pointed out that it was based on John Hagee. I'm pointing out that it's based on reality.

As to this genocidal war, I'd need to know what you're talking about before I comment to it. Are you seriously implying that Israel is looking for reasons to commence outright genocide against the Palestinians? Or are you refering to Hagee's "Kill all the Jews" sermons that he loves to preach?

Our vassal states suck. In the day vassal states gave you tribute and stuff and didn't bitch if you bombed to close to their troops. These days? Pguah.

I blame the USAF.

Why?

Because I can.

They're the Air Force. If you've got a problem, just blame them. They must've done something to deserve it...

*Flees before some ex-Air Force vet comes to beat me with a stick*

General Havoc wrote:Anyone who believes that Israel is a vassal state of the US has a particularly simplistic view of the world, and if you want to talk about laughable concepts that need to be tossed out of the thread, I am desperately eager to hear about the part where AIPAC is "lobbying both governments to begin a destructive war with the intent of genocide."

AIPAC is not. Never put words into my mouth again. CUFI is.

As for the Vassal state, it's a relevent term. They get massive benefits from America, especially militarily. It's not the medical or imperial era vassal state, but there's no other quick term for it.

I am barely certain of which war you're refering to here, so I'm not sure which argument to refute, but I responded with the Perfidious Jews point because someone pointed out their belief that US support for Israel was based on Jewish swing voters in Florida. You pointed out that it was based on John Hagee. I'm pointing out that it's based on reality.

CUFI's influence is neither small nor uninfluential. What, am I now supposed to ignore factors because they are not to your liking or don't meant some unnamed threshold?

As to this genocidal war, I'd need to know what you're talking about before I comment to it. Are you seriously implying that Israel is looking for reasons to commence outright genocide against the Palestinians? Or are you refering to Hagee's "Kill all the Jews" sermons that he loves to preach?

I'm referring to attempts to push Israel's military to incite a war with Iran, which according to the loonies promoting this(Like the one who received ovation at AIPAC, Hagee), will trigger this genocidal war. Try to keep up. I discuss this for a reason.

As for the truce, I am too cynical to accept either sides claims on it yet save that the fire didn't come from the part of the Territories covered by the truce. The reason is simple: Islamic extremists and Israeli military both reap power, prestige, and influence from continuing the violence. If you think any race, religion, or nationality is immune to this basic human instinct to cling to their power you're a loon.

SirNitram wrote:
AIPAC is not. Never put words into my mouth again. CUFI is.

We were discussing AIPAC, and you spoke of inciting wars of genocide. If you didn't mean the AIPAC there, then it might behoove you to mention who you do mean.

Secondly, I can't find any support for your little genocide claim about CUFI either. The closest I can find (and I admit, it's pretty damn close), is that John Hagee made a speech in July of last year advocating a pre-emptive attack on Iran before Iran gets the power to nuke Israel. He's a loon, certainly, but I think it's something of a leap to go from that to claiming that the CUFI is, and I quote, "lobbying both governments to begin a destructive war with the intent of genocide." I do not see anything that indicates that the CUFI is advocating a genocide of the Persian people.

Understand, I'm not saying they're not advocating such a thing, but that I cannot find any evidence that they are. You've now claimed that both Joe Lieberman and CUFI are advocating some kind of Genocide (against Moslems? Arabs? Persians?). I'd like to know where you're getting that, because I just don't see it.

As for the Vassal state, it's a relevent term. They get massive benefits from America, especially militarily. It's not the medical or imperial era vassal state, but there's no other quick term for it.

Fair enough. They do get massive benefits from us, after all. My point was that there's real reasons for that, not merely some lobbyist's conspiracy (I finally figured out how to spell lobbyist!).

CUFI's influence is neither small nor uninfluential. What, am I now supposed to ignore factors because they are not to your liking or don't meant some unnamed threshold?

You yell at me for putting words in your mouth, then turn around and put words in mine. I'll stop when you do.

I explicitly pointed out that I could not determine who you were referring to with your claims of genocide and lobbying power, the AFIAC or the CUFI or John Hagee himself. I don't even know what factors you claim I'm demanding you ignore. In short what the hell are you talking about?

No... you know what... cancel that question. Your argument is wrong-headed even without all that. The CUFI is certainly sizeable, but it is not even close to the largest, most influential, or the primary driving force behind the US' pro-Israel policy. Even excepting the AFIAC itself, there's the CPMAJO (Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations). There's the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, the Hudson Institute, CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America). There's J Street, there's the Israel Policy Forum, and there's probably half a dozen major organizations I don't know about. The CUFI, along with some other similar groups, represents the far right extreme wing of the pro-Israel lobby in this country, not the mainstream, not the source of most of the pressure and money, and, I continue to maintain in the absence of evidence to the contrary, not a particularly influential organization in the overall scheme of things. You say otherwise? Lead me down that path. Show me how CUFI is the reason for our support for Israel, and not those eight other massive lobbying groups and think tanks, and I'll agree with you that the evangelicals have hijacked American foreign policy. But before you do that, I'd like you to explain this: US support for Israel dates back to 1948. The CUFI was founded in 2006.

We support Israel because a broad coalition of policymakers, lobbyists, and advocacy groups believe that we should, among which are crackpots like the CUFI. I think you seriously overestimate the CUFI's influence in these matters. I have no doubt that Bush, as an evangelical Christian himself who believes in scary things, gives a large ear to people like Hagee, but that is not the reason we support and have supported and continue to support Israel.

I'm referring to attempts to push Israel's military to incite a war with Iran, which according to the loonies promoting this(Like the one who received ovation at AIPAC, Hagee), will trigger this genocidal war. Try to keep up. I discuss this for a reason.

I'm doing my level best to keep up... :)

A genocidal war however is a war to annihilate a people. Even if Hagee believes that it is good to wipe out the Iranians (and I have no reason to believe he doesn't, as he is, as you mentioned, a loony), it does not follow that they will do so. Once again, I think you overestimate Hagee's influence in the grand scheme of things.

Israel's stated policy from the beginning of the issue has been that they will not permit Iran to get their hands on a nuclear weapon. They do not have this policy because John Hagee encouraged them to. Iran has stated openly that if they get a nuclear weapon they will use it to purge Israel from the earth. It is not some genocidist's fantasy scheme to respond to that with a threat of war, nor, incidentally, does it indicate a desire to expunge the world of Persians, Iranians, or Moslems. I've no doubt that Hagee and some of his fellow wack-jobs would love to do just that, but that doesn't make them the driving force of policy.

As for the truce, I am too cynical to accept either sides claims on it yet save that the fire didn't come from the part of the Territories covered by the truce. The reason is simple: Islamic extremists and Israeli military both reap power, prestige, and influence from continuing the violence. If you think any race, religion, or nationality is immune to this basic human instinct to cling to their power you're a loon.

I must confess, I simply do not see what Israel reaps from continuing the violence.

Seriously, I don't. I do not follow that line of argument. It's really simple to say "A pox on both their houses" without looking at the issues underlying the conflict and claim that everyone is morally bankrupt and that they're all to blame, but I just don't buy it. What benefit is it to Israel to maintain the blockade, the incursions, the casualties produced thereby? What to they get out of it other than more rockets, more fighting, more bloodshed. This is not Tsar Nicholas II plunging his country into WWI to distract them. The Israeli military is not going to lose power and prestige because they stopped bulldozing a house periodically in the West Bank. The country exists at the point of its bayonets, and every living soul in Israel knows it. Did Israel's military's power and prestige increase after the 2006 fiasco in Lebanon? Does it increase every time a rocket lands inside Israel? For the first time in history, there is major criticism of the IDF's policies from within Israel, you think that's because they're covering themselves in importance and glory with this low-level brushfire in Gaza?

Qui Bono? Who benefits from a break in the truce? Hamas unquestionably (well, some elements of Hamas), as they're entire reason for existence is the annihilation of Israel. The Palestinian people? Absolutely not. They elected and supported Hamas because they believed Hamas could give them a better life, not because they're jihad-obsessed maniacs. Israel? Hell no. The status quo is what they're actually trying to get away from, and if you don't believe that, then I don't know what to tell you. The Israeli military? No. I don't see the benefit to them, and I won't accept that there magically "is one" because you believe that Israel is ruled by some kind of military-industrial complex that feeds off perpetual war. That stuff sounds great in Orwell, but reality tends to be complicated. Show me the actual benefit to them from breaking the truce, and I'll accept it. I will not accept that there is one just because.

Yea, sure, I was talking about just AIPAC, that's why I brought up another group entirely. That makes perfect sense. And of course you can't find evidence you don't want to. It's not like there's a YouTube of CUFI singing the praises of Israel's destruction, no! It couldn't be embedded here!

Ugh, what utter bullshit. You want this to be about AIPAC when I specifically say it's not, merely that Hagee has a disturbing amount of approval from them for someone whose written more than one book about the destruction of Israel causing Rapture. Or didn't you know he wrote books?

As for what Israel reaps, nothing. But when you start thinking about 'Individuals in Israel' and not as a monolithic race/religious group, you discover that the military in Israel is on a permenant war footing, which grants prestige, power, funding, and influence. So it's not hard at all to see how those individuals might be all for continuing it. But it's easier to worm away if you just say 'Israel'.

Nitram he's asked you to show him because this is the first time he's ever heard of this. Why not clam down and show him your sources?

frigidmagi wrote:Nitram he's asked you to show him because this is the first time he's ever heard of this. Why not clam down and show him your sources?

That'd be why I put up a link which has a lovely Youtube of these nutbars. The idea that I'm talking about AIPAC or Israel as a whole when I, you know, specifically mentioned other groups or individuals, is flatly insulting. I know he's smarter than this.

I've asked you four times Nitram to provide some basic idea about what you're talking about, and you have not done so. You scream at me for mentioning the AIPAC without bothering to read why I did so, and bitch at me for not understanding your argument when you willfully obscured it.

At no point did I claim Hagee is anything but a crackpot. My point was that his influence is not as major as you pretend. You claim he's got a disturbing amount of approval from the AIPAC? Why? Because they applauded him when he stood up before them and said "We must support Israel"? Yes, I know he wrote books. Writing books does not make one a policymaker. Your position is (if I'm understanding it), that Hagee and his people are subverting American policy by encouraging a pro-Israel position for their own nutjob ends. My point is that they are indeed encouraging a pro-Israel position for their own nutjob ends, but they're hardly as influential as you think they are, and that the real reason we support Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with Hagee.

Quit referring to mystical secret "individuals" and name some. Answer my question. Who within Israel is benefiting? You claim Israel's on a permanent war-footing, and so they are. You think that's because of Hamas firing rockets into the country? Israel's been on a permanent war footing since 1948! If they want an excuse to remain on a permanent war footing they need only point to the fact that Iran is actively seeking nuclear weapons. The Palestinian issue and its solution is not going to alter Israel's permanent war footing. You keep obliquely referencing some kind of conspiracy within Israel to keep the military in power somehow. I do not believe such a thing exists and I do not believe such a thing would even need to exist in a country like Israel. You have yet to show me one shred of evidence (beyond calling me names) that would indicate otherwise.

You are also smarter than this, as I know well, Nitram, so please stop referencing these "individuals" and "groups" as though mentioning their names will call down the wrath of god. The CIA is not going to assassinate you for bringing it up.

He did provide you with a link Havoc, why not make use of it?

Because I did, and the link tells me what we agreed about all along, that Hagee is a crackpot who wants to end the world in the rapture by sending Jews to Israel. It also, as I should have mentioned, answers my question from before about him inciting the apocalypse. It turns out that he does incite it, and does so to all his ability. I concede that point.

But I don't think that his ability is all that big, and I don't see the other agencies or individuals, within or without Israel, who are trying to kick-start a genocidal war for their own personal gain. The line of causality just doesn't make sense to me. Hagee is a lunatic, but I don't see any evidence that it's because of him and his ilk that we support Israel.

General Havoc wrote:I've asked you four times Nitram to provide some basic idea about what you're talking about, and you have not done so. You scream at me for mentioning the AIPAC without bothering to read why I did so, and bitch at me for not understanding your argument when you willfully obscured it.

How am I 'obscuring' my argument? It's been there from the beginning: American interests, which carry signifigant power on the alliance between Israel and America, want to support Hagee's little nonsense from Jeruselum Countdown.

The 'Basic idea' I'm talking about is that there's every reason to believe there's people who benefit from this, and human nature says they will.

At no point did I claim Hagee is anything but a crackpot. My point was that his influence is not as major as you pretend. You claim he's got a disturbing amount of approval from the AIPAC? Why? Because they applauded him when he stood up before them and said "We must support Israel"? Yes, I know he wrote books. Writing books does not make one a policymaker. Your position is (if I'm understanding it), that Hagee and his people are subverting American policy by encouraging a pro-Israel position for their own nutjob ends. My point is that they are indeed encouraging a pro-Israel position for their own nutjob ends, but they're hardly as influential as you think they are, and that the real reason we support Israel has nothing whatsoever to do with Hagee.

I don't know where you get that the 'real reason' for supporting Israel in my eyes must be Hagee. However, supporting continued expansionism is one of their key planks in CUFI, and is one of the ones they dare utter aloud. As I said above: It is a FACTOR, one of several, and the 'real reason' canard is one thrown out by those who can't grasp several things all act on something. My 'pretending' he has support from AIPAC? Yea, I'm sure This article is totally made up. As is this.

Support for Israel's expansion, attacks on Iran, and against peace come from CUFI and their sick alliance with neocons. But I worry about CUFI more because they aren't as discredited.

Quit referring to mystical secret "individuals" and name some. Answer my question. Who within Israel is benefiting? You claim Israel's on a permanent war-footing, and so they are. You think that's because of Hamas firing rockets into the country? Israel's been on a permanent war footing since 1948! If they want an excuse to remain on a permanent war footing they need only point to the fact that Iran is actively seeking nuclear weapons. The Palestinian issue and its solution is not going to alter Israel's permanent war footing. You keep obliquely referencing some kind of conspiracy within Israel to keep the military in power somehow. I do not believe such a thing exists and I do not believe such a thing would even need to exist in a country like Israel. You have yet to show me one shred of evidence (beyond calling me names) that would indicate otherwise.

Oh good grief. Iran's nuclear program was shut down years ago, weapons side. Unless you have no grasp of Iranian political structure, this is obvious. The only person talking about nuking Israel is the powerless President who has no such authority and was told as much by the Iranian constitutional watchdog.

Who benefits.. Let's see. The high-ranking political brokers in the Israeli military who like their power, prestige, and funding. The companies who get the contracts to build it all, both American and Israeli. Can I go more detailed than that? Nope, can you name which CUFI members aren't for the obliteration of Israel? No, you can't.

You are also smarter than this, as I know well, Nitram, so please stop referencing these "individuals" and "groups" as though mentioning their names will call down the wrath of god. The CIA is not going to assassinate you for bringing it up.

I have explained what I meant by both. That you are trying to appeal to ignorance is not compelling, logical, or honest.

Quick side note: I am never opening PDFs again in Vista with Firefox. I was trying to look through the CIA Iran nuke report from last December and instead got a face full of O/S death. Grrr...

SirNitram wrote: How am I 'obscuring' my argument? It's been there from the beginning: American interests, which carry signifigant power on the alliance between Israel and America, want to support Hagee's little nonsense from Jeruselum Countdown.

The 'Basic idea' I'm talking about is that there's every reason to believe there's people who benefit from this, and human nature says they will.

So your point is that other groups that support Israel will continue to do so now that Hagee has opened his mouth and endorsed further support of Israel? Hagee's an idiot, but I still, even after reading those two articles you offered, don't believe that he carries as much weight as you think he does. He's not the reason we support Israel, and he never has been, and nor is his CUFI.

Yes, human nature will be that whoever benefits from the American-Israeli alliance will continue to support it, but what of that? The American-Israeli alliance is grounded in 60 years of history and politics, not the whims of some madman in a Texas Church, nor the greed of a war profiteer who is eager to sell his guns. Both of those people will support the alliance, but they're not the reason it exists.

I don't know where you get that the 'real reason' for supporting Israel in my eyes must be Hagee. However, supporting continued expansionism is one of their key planks in CUFI, and is one of the ones they dare utter aloud. As I said above: It is a FACTOR, one of several, and the 'real reason' canard is one thrown out by those who can't grasp several things all act on something. My 'pretending' he has support from AIPAC? Yea, I'm sure This article is totally made up. As is this.

Support for Israel's expansion, attacks on Iran, and against peace come from CUFI and their sick alliance with neocons. But I worry about CUFI more because they aren't as discredited.

Well you've been citing Hagee as this scary, powerful individual who's been driving the American-Israeli connection and pushing for Israel to conquer the West Bank and wage nuclear war with Iran. I assume you've got some reason for citing him and CUFI, because if he's not the reason that the US is supporting Israel, then I fail to see why we're discussing him in the first place. Because he's a loon? There are ten million loons around the country advocating all manner of things. Because he's an important loon? Possibly, but as I said before, I don't think he's as important as you do. Because he endorsed McCain and McCain has pandered to him? That's worrisome, I agree, but McCain's been making a big push to try and pander to a lot of major figures on the religious right (all of whom, definitionally, are kooks).

I'm not saying the guy doesn't worry me, but... well... okay, I AM saying the guy doesn't worry me. He's got plenty of influence within his constituency, but I don't see that he makes policy or influences anything beyond his usual ken. Yes, I read those two articles of yours, and I agree he's a mover and shaker in the "support Israel" lobby (which is why the AIPAC cheered him on), but regardless of his goals of expanding and whatnot, I don't see that he does much except preach to the choir. It's not hard to get the AIPAC to applaud when you go to them and declare your support of their primary goal.

Oh good grief. Iran's nuclear program was shut down years ago, weapons side. Unless you have no grasp of Iranian political structure, this is obvious. The only person talking about nuking Israel is the powerless President who has no such authority and was told as much by the Iranian constitutional watchdog.

Yeah, except for all of the other senior Iranians who enjoy preaching the impending annihilation of the state of Israel.

The very IAEA article you just linked claims that attacking Iran would be a bad idea (which is true), not that they are not seeking nuclear weapons. The IAEA has consistently vacillated as to whether or not Iran is going after nuclear weapons, and it is far from obvious that they are not. Yes, yes, I know that the CIA admitted that Iran stopped building towards nuclear weapons in 2003 (and waited four years to let anyone know that), but that does not mean they're not still looking to procure one, and there are certain questions that remain unanswered in regards to their intentions in that regard. I do, as it happens, have a rudimentary understanding of how Iran's government works, and while obviously the President of Iran is not going to nuke Israel if he has no nukes to nuke them with (tongue twister, that one), and yes, there are plenty of Iranians who look on his actions with horror. There are also plenty of Americans that look on Bush's war with horror, and yet we still invaded Iraq. Iran's threat to Israel is not totally illusionary, whatever you may think, as there is plenty of evidence on either side, much of which is cataloged in that Economist article I cited a moment ago.

Who benefits.. Let's see. The high-ranking political brokers in the Israeli military who like their power, prestige, and funding. The companies who get the contracts to build it all, both American and Israeli. Can I go more detailed than that? Nope, can you name which CUFI members aren't for the obliteration of Israel? No, you can't.

If you're going to cite a vast criminal conspiracy to drag Israel into a nuclear war with half the middle east as canonical dogma, then you damn well better be able to go more detailed than that. You have said nothing so far that makes me believe word one of this "pushing Israel into genocide" nonsense. You are correct that I cannot cite any CUFI members that aren't in favor of the obliteration of Israel. I am quite willing to believe that all of them are in favor of it. But as before, my point is that the CUFI is not as powerful as you think they are, and does not have the wherewithal to push anyone into war, nor to incite Israeli genocide, nor to obliterate Israel for the purposes of the second coming. They are crackpots with some degree of influence within neocon circles, not the most, not even the largest.

You claim that it's a combination of factors, that human nature is pushing these mystery people to support a war in the Mid-East for their own personal gain. If the CUFI is not a major factor in all this, then who is? You've stated it's not the AIPAC (or at least you've yelled at me when I dared suggest that was your thesis). Back up your claims, because I flatly do not believe that there exists this massive amount of pressure to start a genocidal war in the Middle East. Whether or not you think it's human nature for there to exist such a thing, I won't accept that this thing exists simply because you say it does, without evidence to back it up. Show me legitimate evidence, and I will concede the point.

I will not however concede it because you think that anyone who doesn't accept your opinion at face value with no proof is stupid.