The Tale of Sccwarzenegger and the gay marriage ban.

[frigidmagi]

LA Times

Reporting from Sacramento and Lake Forest -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on Sunday expressed hope that the California Supreme Court would overturn Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that outlawed same-sex marriage. He also predicted that the 18,000 gay and lesbian couples who have already wed would not see their marriages nullified by the initiative.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger said in an interview Sunday on CNN. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

With his favorable comments toward gay marriage, the governor's thinking appears to have evolved on the issue.

In past statements, he has said he believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman and has rejected legislation authorizing same-sex marriage. Yet he has also said he would not care if same-sex marriage were legal, saying he believed that such an important societal issue should be determined by the voters or the courts.

Schwarzenegger publicly opposed Proposition 8, which amends the state Constitution to declare that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."

On Sunday, he urged backers of gay marriage to follow the lesson he learned as a bodybuilder trying to lift weights that were too heavy for him at first. "I learned that you should never ever give up. . . . They should never give up. They should be on it and on it until they get it done."

The governor's position on the fate of the existing same-sex marriages aligns him with California Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown, who has said he believes that the state Supreme Court will uphold the existing marriages as valid.

The 14-word constitutional amendment does not state explicitly that it would nullify same-sex marriages performed before the Nov. 4 election, although proponents say it will. Legal experts differ on this point.

Schwarzenegger's comments came as protesters took to the streets for a fifth day in a row, sometimes marching to Catholic and Mormon churches that supported passage of the ballot measure.

Hundreds of Proposition 8 protesters in Orange County gathered down the hill from Saddleback Church in Lake Forest as several thousand congregants attended services inside the sprawling religious campus.

Martijn Hostetler, 30, of West Hollywood held a sign that read "Purpose Driven Hate," a dig at the church's celebrity Pastor Rick Warren, author of the bestseller "The Purpose-Driven Life," who backed the ballot measure. "I don't think Jesus would approve of a gay-marriage ban," he said. "I don't think God discriminates."

While demonstrators received supportive honks from motorists, many members of the mega-church said they had little sympathy for the protesters because the matter had already been settled by voters.

"We're a democracy and our strength is that the majority wins the vote," said John Kirkpatrick, a church member.

Sherrie Derriko, a longtime Saddleback Church member and hair salon owner from Mission Viejo, said she was bothered that protesters had targeted houses of worship. As she drove by, she rolled down her window to offer some advice.

"Read the Bible. God made man and woman, and that's what a marriage is," she called from inside her SUV.

Derriko recounted the incident after attending services. "When we saw them out there, we thought, 'Why are they not over this? Do they think they're going to change anything, or are they just stirring up trouble at our church?' "

But for Sally "Sal" Landers, 52, a Saddleback Church member from Lake Forest, her participation in the protest was a deeply personal matter. Landers and her female partner of three years plan to marry and adopt children. When she received an e-mail from Warren urging a "yes" vote on Proposition 8, she said, "I felt like I was kicked in the stomach by someone who loves unconditionally."

So on Sunday, Landers joined the protesters outside the church rather than the parishioners inside. "We really love him and respect his opinion," Landers said of Warren. "I need some reassurance that I'm welcome here as a gay American citizen."

Other protests were staged outside Mormon temples or churches in Oakland, Yucca Valley and other cities.

In downtown Los Angeles, 150 protesters congregated in front of the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels, chanting, among other things, "What would Jesus say?" The crowd was joined later in the day by protesters who marched from Lincoln Park on the city's Eastside.

Some churches, to be sure, assailed Proposition 8 as discriminatory.

"We will continue to bless same-sex unions here until we can legally celebrate same-sex unions again," the Rev. Ed Bacon told 1,000 congregants during Sunday services at All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, which has blessed same-sex unions for 16 years.

After the service, Bacon and other clergy members held a news conference on the church steps. They were surrounded by gay and lesbian couples, some standing with young children.

"I know these couples. I know their relationships," Bacon said, addressing a phalanx of television cameras. "They should be celebrated, rather than disparaged. . . . In the eyes of God, these people are married."

[frigidmagi]

The Tale of two votes

Prop 22 the first measure to ban gay marriage later struck down by California's Supreme Court passed 61% to 38%, a majority of 22%. That was in 2000, 8 years ago. Roughly 7 million or so voted.

Prop 8 of this year passed 52% to 47%, a majority of 5%. Roughly 10 million voted. It has been suggested that in what may be a fit of irony, that the get out the vote drive by various people, among them the Obama campaign, is what helped pushed Prop 8, as African Americans and Latinos poll heavily against gay marriage.

In 8 years however, the led of the ban gay marriage side has shrunk by 18%. A comparison of numbers show that while the supporters of the gay marriage ban gained around 1 million votes, the supporters of gay marriage nearly doubled their votes, meaning that they gained almost 2/3rds of the new 3 million votes.

The numbers do not lie, if this becomes a trend then those supporting a ban on gay marriage will lose. Time is not on their side.

[The Minx]

I find it amazing that the state constitution can be amended by a simple majority vote in a proposition any jackenapes can put forward. Never mind that the LDS pushed strongly for the proposition from out of state, apparently.

Good on Arnold speaking out against this traversity. But if the constitution itself is amended, what would the basis for a supreme court ruling be?

[Cynical Cat]

I find it amazing that the state constitution can be amended by a simple majority vote in a proposition any jackenapes can put forward. Never mind that the LDS pushed strongly for the proposition from out of state, apparently.

California has all sorts of problems because of propositions, which often results in lots of money and influence pushing one side of a measure and getting it through and the state being stuck with it even if it's a really bad idea.

Good on Arnold speaking out against this traversity. But if the constitution itself is amended, what would the basis for a supreme court ruling be?

Arcane legalese. It had previously been ruled that gay marriage was legal under California's constitution. If a proposition wants to add something to the C=constitution, it requires a simple majority. If it wants to change something already in their state constitution, it requires 2/3. Prop 8 had a majority, but not 2/3rds.

[General Havoc]

And once again I'm proud of having voted for Arnold.

Honestly, as a Californian, I'm not overly concerned by Prop 8 passing. Yes, it's a defeat, and yes, I voted against it, but next year, or the next, or the one after that, we can repeal Prop 8. The long-term prospects are simply fact. Support for a ban on Gay Marriage is drying up. It simply doesn't matter to most straight people anymore.

[Rogue 9]

You know, a cynical part of me thinks that the proponents of the ban want it to be struck down by the court almost as much as its opponents do. It'll give them all kinds of grounds to scream to their base about activist judges, and that would rile up the redneck wing of the Republican Party even more than losing a vote on a gay marriage ban would have.