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Posted: **Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:21 pm**

A senior Hamas leader has been killed by an Israeli air strike on his home in the Gaza Strip, Hamas officials say.

Nizar Rayyan, the most senior Hamas figure to be killed since 2004, had urged suicide attacks against Israel.

News of the strike came on the sixth day of Israeli strikes on Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip.

Palestinian medical sources say 402 people have been killed. Israel says it is trying to prevent militants from firing rockets into southern Israel.

Mr Rayyan is the most senior Hamas leader to be killed since the death of Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi in April 2004.

Long reach of Israel

Since its bombing campaign began last Saturday, Israel has attacked Hamas fighters and commanders.

Sites linked to Hamas have also been hit, including smuggling tunnels under the border to Egypt, government buildings and security compounds.

map

Map: Gaza and Israel violence
In pictures: Gaza conflict
Aid worker diary: Part five
Obituary: Nizar Rayyan

Hamas considered Mr Rayyan to be a political leader, but he often wore a military uniform and was close to the group's armed wing.

Until now, political leaders have not been killed.

The BBC's Mike Sergeant, in Jerusalem, says this may further strengthen the determination of Hamas to resist the Israeli air assault.

But it will also be seen as an indication that the Israeli military can target key members of the Hamas leadership - the people Israel says are responsible for the rockets being fired towards Israeli towns, our correspondent adds.

Four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rockets fired into Israel since Saturday.

Humanitarian warning

On Wednesday, Mr Rayyan had promised that Hamas would hit Israel "even deeper" than it has so far.

On the Hamas-run al-Aqsa television channel, he said Hamas militants were preparing for any Israeli ground incursion, saying "we will kill the enemy and take hostages".

At least nine other people, some said to be members of Mr Rayyan's family, were also killed in the air raid on his home in the Jabaliya refugee camp in the north of the Gaza Strip.

The deaths come as the main UN agency operating in Gaza, Unwra, has resumed food deliveries, but warned of a dire humanitarian situation in the territory.

The UN says at least 25% of the 402 Palestinians killed were civilians; Palestinian medical officials say more than 2,000 people have been injured.

Israel is refusing entry to Gaza for international journalists and has declared the area around it a "closed military zone", leading to speculation a ground offensive into the tiny coastal strip could be imminent.

Israeli President Shimon Peres said it was not his country's aim to return to the Gaza Strip but did not rule out a ground attack.

"The aim is to stop terror. Our aim, if you ask me, is a positive one - to make peace," he told the BBC.

Ceasefire calls ignored

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Israel wanted to weaken Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

"At the end of the day, Hamas is a problem not only for Israel but to the entire Palestinian people... They are the problem to all the Arab states that understand - that have their own radical elements back home," she said after talks in Paris with French President Nicolas Sarkozy.

Tzipi Livni says Hamas is a problem for all Palestinians

Mr Sarkozy is travelling to the Middle East next week in an attempt to bring an end to the crisis.

Both Israel and Hamas have ignored international calls for a ceasefire.

A draft UN resolution put forward by Egypt and Libya failed after the US and UK complained that it called on Israel to ends its air assaults but made no mention of Hamas rocket attacks against Israel, which they say started the latest hostilities.

For the current violence to end, Israel needs to show that it has stopped the rocket fire, says the BBC's Middle East Editor, Jeremy Bowen.

But if Hamas can still resist, its leaders will feel they can claim victory. Hamas believes that its fighters who are launching rockets into Israel are taking part in legitimate resistance against an occupier, he adds.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:09 am**

One down, some semi-infinite number to go...

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:55 am**

The problem is, members of Hamas was duly elected by the citizens of Palestine to their government. If this happened in the US, it would be like Canada killing a member of Congress.

It's a clusterfuck.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:27 am**

Even though I hate Nazi references, Hitler was fairly elected in Germany. Popular acclaim does not grant moral high ground.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:28 am**

I never said it did, nor have I forgotten that there are some factions of Hamas who are firing weapons at Israel.

However, continuing the Nazi reference, France and Russia did not attack Hilter until after the German invasions started and Declarations of War made. There's been no War declared between Israel and Palestine.

Why no war? Well...
To made a Declaration, Israel would have to recognize Palestine as a Nation, which IIRC they have not (and Palestine doesn't recognize Israel, either). Once the Declaration was made, then all the Islamic nations around Israel would instantly dogpile on "Protecting the Palestinian Freedom", which would send the whole Mid-East up in smoke and draw in the rest of Europe and the US. Hello WWIII.

So, instead, we get this pithy "You shot me, I'm shooting at you" back-n-forth that prevents any attempt at peaceful resolution .. especially since Palestine and Israel are both declaring the other doesn't exist as a Nation.

My brother and I grew out of that kind of fighting when we were 14.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:52 am**

cleric wrote:Even though I hate Nazi references, Hitler was fairly elected in Germany. Popular acclaim does not grant moral high ground.

*cough* The Nazi Party won roughly 30% of the seats in the Weimar Parliment leading to Hitler being appointed not elected to the seat of Chancellor by the President of the Republic in an attempt to bring the Nazi's under control and keep the communists out of the government.

As we all know it failed utterly.

Hitler himself never actually stood for an election.

Your point does stand despite my nitpicking however, as the Nazis were one of the more powerful parties at the time.

Tev wrote: Rolling Eyes My brother and I grew out of that kind of fighting when we were 14. Mad

Your brother and you weren't killing people. When someone starts shooting at your people, you're kinda obliged to do something back. In fact you might find those being shot will sorta demand it.

Seriously Tev, HAMAS fired rockets into Israeli territory endangering their civilians for how long? If Cuba did that you would be howling for the US to at the very least bomb the place in a few days (so would I for that matter, I don't like having US citizens shot at).

As for a declaration of war? Pot, Kettle, Black.

You live in a nation that hasn't declared war on anyone since fucking 1943. I've yet to hear you complain about that!

As for preventing peaceful resolutions, I hardly think the Israeli's agreeing to stand still and be shot at will result in anything but a peace of the grave. While the Israeli government is not a collection of innocent white lambs and has a number of mistakes, bad actions and sheer nuttiness to it's name, they're no the ones whose battle cry is wipe out the opposing side.

To be blunt HAMAS is not interested in any sorta of peace that leaves a Jewish State or even a Secular State standing so frankly the hope of peace is a rather unlikely one.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:03 pm**

frigidmagi wrote:As for a declaration of war? Pot, Kettle, Black.

You live in a nation that hasn't declared war on anyone since fucking 1943. I've yet to hear you complain about that!

Touche. Even this clusterfuck in Afganistan and Iraq wasn't a full declaration.

As for preventing peaceful resolutions, I hardly think the Israeli's agreeing to stand still and be shot at will result in anything but a peace of the grave. While the Israeli government is not a collection of innocent white lambs and has a number of mistakes, bad actions and sheer nuttiness to it's name, they're no the ones whose battle cry is wipe out the opposing side.

To be blunt HAMAS is not interested in any sorta of peace that leaves a Jewish State or even a Secular State standing so frankly the hope of peace is a rather unlikely one.

This is also true. I guess I'm not putting what I want to say into words properly.

It still means Israel is trying to cut the head off a Hydra, and each missle strike -- from either side -- is only stirring the pot and leaving families with no homes and deaths.

I would like to know if HAMAS's rockets killed any Israelis. We get a death total for Palestinians, but I've yet to see the damage done to Israel.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:18 pm**

3 Israeli civilians were killed before the bombing campaign, it's mentioned in just about every BBC report on the subject Tev. The reason for the low total is simple, the Israeli's have spent alot of time and money building civil alert systems and bomb shelters. There were points when people had to spend 5 or 6 hours at a time in those shelters while HAMAS hammered at them.

An Israeli soldier was killed after the bombing campaign began. I tend not to count the poor guy though. He was a soldier in combat making him fair game.

One should also keep in mind the targets here. Israel is making some effort to target HAMAS "military" (I use that one loosely) targets, the problem being HAMAS tends to stick right in residential neighborhoods (to be fair one could argue that describes all of Gaza!).

HAMAS fires right at Israel towns with no military targets hoping to kill civilians.

To me at least that means quiet a bit.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 12:47 pm**

As I say to anyone who asks about this issue, Israel is only doing what any government would do in their place, given the opportunity. If Mexico began randomly launching rockets into San Diego because they believed that our "occupation" of California was illegitimate, we would fucking carpet bomb Tijuana, declaration or no declaration. But because it's those "perfidious jews" in Israel hitting back, suddenly it's an illegitimate use of force by an evil power against poor helpless Hamas.

Now, that being said, Tev is right about the Hydra thing. This is not going to work. Hamas cannot be destroyed by anything short of a full-scale military occupation of the Gaza Strip, which I rather doubt Israel is prepared to do. This whole thing is just an exercise in Israeli frustration at being bombarded without cease by these terrorists.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:14 pm**

But it's an interesting question though... To what extent does a government such as Hamas have an obligation to protect its citizens when another power takes aggressive action against them - for example the continuing construction of settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, or even more egregiously the continuing blockade of Gaza.

According to the most recent UN report found here, 38% of Palestinians in the Gaza strip undergo persistent food insecurity (up to 75% more generally malnourished), and a lack of electricity and medical supplies has left hospitals utterly unable to deal with even mundane problems. Attempts to transport seriously ill civilians have been thwarted at the border; over 220 Gaza residents have died waiting at border crossings for security clearance, which often includes withering interrogation tactics. 46% of Palestinian children are anemic, and as to the state of their mental health, 50% under the age of 12 have "lost the will to live" according to Rapporteur Richard Falk. As Israel controls the maritime borders, airspace, and land borders of Palestine, it does have an obligation to civilians under rules governing occupying powers.

With regards to the border Gaza shares with Egypt, it may be important to note that Egypt is also a western client state with an oppressive illiberal government fighting for its life against fundamentalist movements such as the Islamic Brotherhood, and thus has no desire to intervene and risk losing financial aid.

No one seems to be speaking out on behalf of the Palestinian population and while none of this necessarily excuses the tactics of Hamas, it seems to show a moral blind spot on the part of the west.

E: It also may explain why Hamas has political legitimacy, as Fatah was a notoroiously corrupt ruling party that did only a fraction of the social work that Hamas does, and which was seen as indifferent to the concerns of the average Palestinian.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:10 pm**

An obligation to protect one's citizens does not include a central, driving desire for the utter annihilation of an entire group of people, regardless of circumstances. The Israelis are only a threat as long as HAMAS continues its strikes into civilian territories. Now, that's not to say if the rockets stopped today that Israel would back down today. The history and precedents have opened divisions that will take a long time to heal. But continuing the violence is not helpful.

As for the Palestinian population, war is hell. Yes, it's horrible that the civilians have to suffer it. Stop electing insane radicals and allowing yourselves to be used as shields When the government in place is continuing practices that make it impossible for the opposing country to treat all of your citizens as anything BUT potential combatants, and you elect them by a sweeping majority, you've kinda backed yourself into a hole.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:27 pm**

Like I've said, Fatah was a corrupt government that Hamas set itself in opposition to in the 2006 elections. Here's a report from CFR:

Here.

Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services; Hamas's efforts in this areaâ€”as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruptionâ€”help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.

As far as bread-and-butter issues were concerned, Palestinians made the most rational choice of political parties given the options.

Edit:

As for the Palestinian population, war is hell. Yes, it's horrible that the civilians have to suffer it.

Collective punishment is considered a war crime as per the Geneva convention. The Gaza blockade falls squarely under this.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:28 pm**

Hamas' victory was a direct result of the US pushing open elections, with the other party being incompetent, corrupt, and Hamas performing the duties of a real government. This is the new equation: Terrorists realize they cement themselves in the population by doing things like providing schooling, assisting in recovery after destruction..

You cannot fight that with tanks and airstrikes.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:37 pm**

SirNitram wrote:You cannot fight that with tanks and airstrikes.

Well, you CAN, you just need a lot more of them

.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:51 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:Collective punishment is considered a war crime as per the Geneva convention. The Gaza blockade falls squarely under this.

I believe that firing missiles indiscriminately into other nations with the expressed intention of killing as many civilians as you physically can is also a war crime as per the Geneva convention.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:54 pm**

General Havoc wrote:I believe that firing missiles indiscriminately into other nations with the expressed intention of killing as many civilians as you physically can is also a war crime as per the Geneva convention.

I'm not defending Hamas's tactics. I'm trying to figure out, or perhaps explain why a population might turn to such an organization when other options are exhausted or seem futile.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:00 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:Collective punishment is considered a war crime as per the Geneva convention. The Gaza blockade falls squarely under this.

God forbid they don't allow members of a fanatic and highly prejudice regime known for suicide bombings and hiding among civilians free access to their country. What meanies. Last time I checked, Gaza had open sea access. What moves have HAMAS made to construct a port capable of handling supplies to help the "humanitarian crisis."

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:02 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:I'm not defending Hamas's tactics. I'm trying to figure out, or perhaps explain why a population might turn to such an organization when other options are exhausted or seem futile.

Which does not excuse anything. How about the option of actually stopping the fighting and making peace? Was that one exhausted?

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:52 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:I'm not defending Hamas's tactics. I'm trying to figure out, or perhaps explain why a population might turn to such an organization when other options are exhausted or seem futile.

Oh I can totally understand why the Palestinians would turn to Hamas rather than Fatah. I would probably do the same thing if I were one of them. The tragedy of the Palestinian situation is that they have a choice between a government that is utterly corrupt and one that is utterly mad. The mad one may seem like a better idea in the short term, but then it goes and provokes war with Israel.

But seriously, Israel has no choice at this point but to do what they are doing. You do not get to accuse them of warcrimes while ignoring the fact that Hamas' blatant terroristic assaults upon Israel by any means that came to hand are the reason that they're doing this.

Posted: **Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:23 pm**

The Cleric wrote:
Derek Thunder wrote:I'm not defending Hamas's tactics. I'm trying to figure out, or perhaps explain why a population might turn to such an organization when other options are exhausted or seem futile.
Which does not excuse anything. How about the option of actually stopping the fighting and making peace? Was that one exhausted?

No, just considered anathema. Check the popularity of the 'Two State Solution' among Israel's top politicos and it's oversees suppliers.

Posted: **Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:23 pm**

The Cleric wrote:
Derek Thunder wrote:Collective punishment is considered a war crime as per the Geneva convention. The Gaza blockade falls squarely under this.
God forbid they don't allow members of a fanatic and highly prejudice regime known for suicide bombings and hiding among civilians free access to their country. What meanies. Last time I checked, Gaza had open sea access. What moves have HAMAS made to construct a port capable of handling supplies to help the "humanitarian crisis."

So you're saying that even after the 2007 civil war with Fatah, you want Hamas to use resources they don't have to build infrastructure in order to get resources so they can build infrastructure? Either you're being deliberately obtuse or you want them to defy the laws of physics.

By the way, the gaza quarantine has included a naval blockade since the outset (article from august).

Posted: **Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:56 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:
The Cleric wrote:
Derek Thunder wrote:Collective punishment is considered a war crime as per the Geneva convention. The Gaza blockade falls squarely under this.
God forbid they don't allow members of a fanatic and highly prejudice regime known for suicide bombings and hiding among civilians free access to their country. What meanies. Last time I checked, Gaza had open sea access. What moves have HAMAS made to construct a port capable of handling supplies to help the "humanitarian crisis."
So you're saying that even after the 2007 civil war with Fatah, you want Hamas to use resources they don't have to build infrastructure in order to get resources so they can build infrastructure? Either you're being deliberately obtuse or you want them to defy the laws of physics.

By the way, the gaza quarantine has included a naval blockade since the outset (article from august).

For such a resourceless people, they do seem to be able to acquire and awfully large amount of munitions. I want them to defy the system that keeps them locked in an unwinnable war of attrition that does nothing but further the goals of the clergy and frothing-at-the-mouth fanatics.

Posted: **Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:21 pm**

With regards to defying the system, the same could be said of Israeli citizens and defying orthodox settlers/the influence of American evangelical groups.

I still don't know how any of this justifies a blockade that continues to starve thousands of Palestinian infants and children. As posted earlier, 46% of children in Palestine are anemic. I really can't imagine how they'd be useful constructing or launching rockets. Perhaps it is this more than any intangible religious reasons that drives people to resistance? By what right does Israel and the US withhold food aid in a ham-handed attempt at affecting political change?

E: For an earlier point -

General Havoc wrote:I believe that firing missiles indiscriminately into other nations with the expressed intention of killing as many civilians as you physically can is also a war crime as per the Geneva convention.

It is, but I really hope that you don't honestly believe one war crime deserves another.

Posted: **Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:33 pm**

Derek Thunder wrote:With regards to defying the system, the same could be said of Israeli citizens and defying orthodox settlers/the influence of American evangelical groups.

What are the Israelis doing wrong?

I still don't know how any of this justifies a blockade that continues to starve thousands of Palestinian infants and children. Perhaps it is this more than any intangible religious reasons that drives people to resistance? By what right does Israel and the US withhold food aid in a ham-handed attempt at affecting political change?

Appeals to emotion are all well and good, but they don't make strong arguments. And they withhold aid because aid isn't a right. If they truly do want a change in their circumstance, then they should show at least a little initiative, niu?

Posted: **Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:35 pm**

The Cleric wrote:What are the Israelis doing wrong?

Well, for one, the failure to dismantle all settlements that violate the 1967 borders agreed to at Oslo.

Appeals to emotion are all well and good, but they don't make strong arguments. And they withhold aid because aid isn't a right. If they truly do want a change in their circumstance, then they should show at least a little initiative, niu?

I believe that children have a fundamental right not to go hungry, but I can see that we will not agree on this point in any meaningful way. Additionally, your continued use of the term "they" is really off-putting, it seems to imply that a lot more people have a lot more agency than they actually do.

E: Not agreed to at Oslo, but I think those borders represent the best compromise for a two-state solution.

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