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#1 Ask the card-carrying socialists: Is Obama one of them?

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:05 am
by The Minx
Link

(CNN) -- Billy Wharton should be happy.

"Socialized health care" is on its way. The "socialist agenda" is taking over America. And best of all, Barack Obama, a "committed socialist ideologue," is in the Oval Office.

But Wharton, co-chair of the Socialist Party USA, sees no reason to celebrate. He's seen people with bumper stickers and placards that call Obama a socialist, and he has a message for them: Obama isn't a socialist. He's not even a liberal.

"We didn't see a great victory with the election of Barack Obama," Wharton says, " and we certainly didn't see our agenda move from the streets to the White House."

Are many Americans secret socialists?

Obama's opponents have long described him as a socialist. But what do actual socialists think about Obama? Not much, says Wharton.

"He's the president whose main goal is to protect the wealth of the richest 5 percent of Americans."

He and others say the assertion that Obama is a socialist is absurd.

"It makes no rational sense. It clearly means that people don't understand what socialism is."

Definitions of socialism vary, but most socialists believe workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own or control them.

Not all socialists, though, want to confiscate personal property. Democratic Socialists are more interested in protecting ordinary people from unregulated capitalism through regulation and progressive taxation.

Some of the socialist agenda is already part of American life, according to Wharton and others.

Social Security, Medicare, unemployment benefits -- all reflect socialistic values, says Van Gosse, an associate professor of history at Franklin & Marshall College in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, who has researched socialist movements in the United States and Latin America.

The widely accepted notions of public education and Pell Grants for college students are socialistic in origin, Gosse says. They fit well with the socialistic premise that government should provide basic security from the cradle to the grave to all of its citizens, he says.

"We assert that education should not be left up to the private market -- where those who can pay, get it and those who can't, don't get it," Gosse says. "It's a common good and in that sense it is a socialistic institution even if the U.S. remains a capitalist nation."

Why socialists hate Obama's health care bill

Those who call Obama a socialist, though, point to his policies. Big on their hit list: "Obamacare," which they call "socialized medicine."

Socialists scoff at the notion. They don't applaud the passage of the recent health care bill either. They wanted a national "single-payer" health insurance plan with a government option. The bill that Obama championed didn't have any of those features.

Wharton said the new health care bill only strengthens private health insurance companies. They get 32 million new customers and no incentive to change -- something a socialist wouldn't accept.

"Most of it was authored by the health care industry," Wharton says. "I call it the corporate restructuring of health care."

Other critics point to Obama's Wall Street bailout -- which actually had its roots in the Bush administration. Critics say it's socialistic for government to assume control of private industry.

Frank Llewellyn, national director of the Democratic Socialists of America, says the bailout had nothing to do with socialism.

Llewellyn says a socialist leader would have at least nationalized some of the troubled banks.

"He gave them [the banks] too much with no strings attached," Llewellyn says. "Banks that were too big to fail are bigger, and they can still fail."

How about Obama's bailout of the Detroit auto industry? During the bailout, the federal government assumed partial ownership of General Motors.

"It's not socialism," Llewellyn says. "The mere fact that the government owns something or has a stake in it, doesn't make it socialist. If that was true, you would say that we have a socialist army. The government owns the army."

Defining socialism is complex, Llewellyn says, but it starts with a simple goal: Socialists want to introduce democratic features into the economy to reduce inequality.

The economy has "to be run for the overall benefit of the entire population, not for the benefits of a very few people."

By that measure, Obama's economic policies are not socialist, he says.

"He's trying to save capitalism from itself rather than a radical trying to change into a new system," Llewellyn says.

This kind of name-calling is not new. Civil rights demonstrators and the politicians who passed Medicare were also called socialists and communists, Llewellyn says.

"Every time an expansion of the public's right has been put forward, Republicans have called it extreme, communistic and socialistic. It's a repeated tactic because they can't defeat the idea."

A Tea Party member explains why Obama is a socialist

Those arguments don't sway Conrad Quagliaroli, a Tea Party member who says Obama is a socialist.

He says that Obama's voting record as a senator was more to the left than the U.S. Senate's sole socialist, Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

He says Obama's association with radicals and his pledge to "spread the wealth" seal his socialistic credentials.

"The role of government is to provide a safe environment to conduct business, not to take from one and give to the other," says Quagliaroli, a financial planner who lives in Woodstock, Georgia.

Quagliaroli was not persuaded by the arguments of other socialist leaders who reject the idea that Obama is a socialist.

"He's just not socialist enough for them."

Quagliaroli says he doesn't like socialism because it breeds mediocrity and encourages people to "live on the dole." Capitalism "breeds excellence" because it encourages initiative, he says.

Does that mean that Quagliaroli will refuse his Social Security checks, a government program that has been described as socialistic, and which he opposes?

Not necessarily, says Quagliaroli. He says he'll accept his Social Security checks for two reasons.

"They confiscated it from me to begin with, and the more money they give me, the less they'll have to waste," he says. "I can spend it better than they can. I don't pay $500 for a hammer."

The argument over Obama's ideology may rage on, but at least one socialist says another prominent politician ought to be inserted into the debate.

Llewellyn, the national director of the Democratic Socialists of America, says he was struck by one player in the 2008 presidential elections who displayed more socialistic leanings than Obama.

This candidate raised taxes on the big oil companies, and sent the revenue to the people.

If you want to learn something about spreading the wealth, Llewellyn says, don't look to Obama.

"To be honest, the most socialist candidate in the 2008 election was Sarah Palin."

Not much of a surprise, but I thought it was worth sharing that the news doesn't always get this wrong. :smile:

#2

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:43 pm
by frigidmagi
Minx you gotta keep in mind one of the hold overs from the Cold War. That socialist and communists are all plotting together secretly to subvert the national system. Therefore when the leader of the socialist party declares Obama ain't one of his (which in my mind is a good thing) the Tea Baggers go "AHA! See! See! He's one of them! Why would they deny it otherwise!?!"

#3

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:00 pm
by Stofsk
Why is it a good thing Obama isn't a socialist? Or am I misunderstanding you? Bear in mind I'm not a socialist, but some of their ideas are worthy of merit, like socialised healthcare.

Anyway, the Cold War's been over for two decades. Isn't it about time things moved on? I only say this because I remember John Howard using a 'reds under the bed' type scare in the last election (which he lost, horribly).

#4

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:28 pm
by frigidmagi
No one will move on until the generation that grew up voting according to cold war stimulus is gone. When it comes to things like this you must think in terms of generations and demographics. In the US for example the biggest voting block (aka babyboomers) grew up in the heat of the cold war, it is what they know. They will vote most of them accordingly.

As for why it is a good thing that Obama is a not a socialist. Yes, there are a few things here and there of merit in the socialist platform. But, the majority of Socialists ideas are either government monopoly (as I have mentioned, I am against monopolies, be they private or government) or "democratization" of the economy. Bluntly speaking democracy is a political system not an economic one. Not to mention I support property rights, I think if you're paying the bills on a bar, shop or what have you, you should get the last say on what goes on there, not some committee.

#5

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:43 pm
by Cynical Cat
frigidmagi wrote: As for why it is a good thing that Obama is a not a socialist. Yes, there are a few things here and there of merit in the socialist platform. But, the majority of Socialists ideas are either government monopoly (as I have mentioned, I am against monopolies, be they private or government) or "democratization" of the economy. Bluntly speaking democracy is a political system not an economic one. Not to mention I support property rights, I think if you're paying the bills on a bar, shop or what have you, you should get the last say on what goes on there, not some committee.
Actually, this is why it's a good thing Obama isn't a socialist. This isn't a fair description of Social Democracy and frigid is more open minded and informed than a large chunk of the American electorate. Bluntly, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to get anything remotely close to a medical system like that the rest of the First World has been enjoying for half a century or more. Obama's very much a centerist and that's about as progressive as you can be and hope to implement large scale national policy in the US.

#6

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:46 pm
by frigidmagi
I'm actually working right off of what the Socialist Party in America has told me they wanted. Socialist Cat. Not Social Democrats. Social Democrats are Norway or Germany. Neither of which isn't Socialist by any real stretch.

As far has I know we don't actually have any Social Democrat parties in the US. Which I'll admit compared to Europe is odd but is on par with India, Brazil and a number of other democracies.

#7

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:59 pm
by Cynical Cat
frigidmagi wrote:I'm actually working right off of what the Socialist Party in America has told me they wanted. Socialist Cat. Not Social Democrats. Social Democrats are Norway or Germany. Neither of which isn't Socialist by any real stretch.

As far has I know we don't actually have any Social Democrat parties in the US. Which I'll admit compared to Europe is odd but is on par with India, Brazil and a number of other democracies.
There's more to social democracy than the title of your party. India has a flat out Communist Party and Congress hasn't exactly been a stranger to socialist ideas. Your description of socialism is also pretty loaded with prejoratives like "monopoly" which you isn't accurate when you compare government and private institutions like utilities and emergency services, which happen to be a large chunk of the "monopolies" in question. And "democratization of the economy" is a vague phrase that can mean anything from government regulation to outright communism. It's a buzz word, not a concrete policy. I have no idea what the Socialist Party of America thinks, because it's frankly irrelevant. Americans have only the mildest of tolerances for socialist policies that don't directly benefit them. t's exactly what I'm talking about. Socialist ideas are the boogie man, unless you're over 65 (or have a relative that is or you want votes) in which case Medicaid becomes a sacred trust.

#8

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:03 pm
by Derek Thunder
The reason why Republicans have been calling Obama a socialist is really a combination of things. I think partly it's a reflex based on cold war fears, but I think it's also a coordinated strategy to create 'truth' based on repetition. Of course it's utterly false; personally, I'd say that Obama is center-right at best.
Bluntly speaking democracy is a political system not an economic one.
I'm not sure I follow, especially considering the existance of worker-owned co-ops. I think what socialists mean when they say "democratize the economy" is give a greater amount of power to labor in their own places of employment, either through unions that oppose capital or some degree of employee ownership/control of the means of production.
As far has I know we don't actually have any Social Democrat parties in the US.
I think that the wing of the Democratic party inhabited by Dennis Kucinich, Barney Frank, Anthony Weiner and so forth represent a sort of ersatz social democrat party, but I think the reason why we don't have one is largely due to the way our elections work (as well as the Democratic party at large being willing to sometimes accept left-liberal ideas in its platform).

#9

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:28 pm
by frigidmagi
There's more to social democracy than the title of your party.
Well no shit. Thank God I didn't base it on party titles. Otherwise I'd might be alarmed by the Christian Democrats of Germany.
India has a flat out Communist Party and Congress hasn't exactly been a stranger to socialist ideas.


Yes, it does have a communist party... One that has never been in power and is regulated to permanent minority coalition partner. In short they're like your New Democratic Party or the British Liberal Democrats. Sidekicks, also rans, Robins to the Batmen of the 2 main parties. Meanwhile the BJP is rightwing enough to make a devout Republican run screaming for the hills and they get shit tons more votes.

And while the Congress Party does flirt with socialist ideas, that's not enough to make them socialists or even social democrats. I mean crap, our own Democrats "flirt" plenty with various socialists ideas but let's be honest, they would make a pretty crappy social democrats. Everyone is more then happy to get in a line and tell me so anyways.

So all in all, when the politics of a nation are pretty much decided by Caste Alliance Parties, the majority of government works go to the wealthy and one of the 2 biggest parties you got is party that declares a deeply right wing agenda (The BJP declares that if you're not a Hindu, you're not a Indian, this makes them kinda like our Constitution Party, only the BJP has gangs of iron barred wielding thugs and way more votes)... You're not a socialist nation.
Your description of socialism is also pretty loaded with prejoratives like "monopoly" which you isn't accurate when you compare government and private institutions like utilities and emergency services, which happen to be a large chunk of the "monopolies" in question.
Yes and? Still makes it a monopoly doesn't it? Here's the deal, I can't claim that the US system is better, because over here we have utilities monopolies to, only they're private ones out to wring every cent they can out of you without attracting to much government attention. What utility company you get is determined by where you live. Bluntly speaking I don't like that. The social democrat/socialist system is to replace this patchwork of monopolies with a single monopoly run by the government. No competition either way. I don't care for this. What I would prefer is a well policed and regulated competition where various companies have to compete for my business with a government watching them like hawks watching a pair of tasty mice. I don't know if that's practical so I tend to defer the issue and accept the majority opinion.

Now in transport systems, what I want is most definitely practical. Does that mean I say no to a government transport system? No, don't be silly. But there should be allowance for private competition with said government system.

That said there are things I like when it comes to what the social democrats have done. Europe's consumer privatecy laws are awesome compared to American ones. Their environmental protections to be blunt are yards better. They do a better job making sure companies don't informally pressure their employees to give up vacation or stay overtime. (I think the mandatory French 35 hour week bit was to far, on the flip side, a minimum required paid vacation time might just be a good idea) I say that because frankly our system has Americans working themselves to fucking death and they don't get any of the wealth that results from that. That is clearly FUBAR.
And "democratization of the economy" is a vague phrase that can mean anything from government regulation to outright communism.
It's a buzz word, not a concrete policy.
So you can see why maybe I'm a tad wary? Voting for buzz words has given me nothing but trouble. Frankly though I think it's a hell of a stretch to put regulation into there. That's rule of law not democracy. Whenever someone has told me they wanted to "Democratize" something, they've wanted more voting, more committees and majority rules decisions. I'm pretty sure the Socialist party doesn't mean communism... I mean they would say that if they did right?

I have no idea what the Socialist Party of America thinks, because it's frankly irrelevant
.

Utterly and completely wrong. The Article itself is using that party has a rubric to decide Obama's socialist standing. If the American public decides it wants socialism, that's who they get. In terms of what socialism would be like in America, they're completely and utterly relevant. It's socialist parties in other nations who become irrelevant because we're talking about the politics of a completely different country. The political parties of Germany are irrelevant when discussing the politics of Poland for example.
Americans have only the mildest of tolerances for socialist policies that don't directly benefit them. t's exactly what I'm talking about. Socialist ideas are the boogie man, unless you're over 65 (or have a relative that is or you want votes) in which case Medicaid becomes a sacred trust.
This I'm gonna have to agree with for better or worse. As it stands the older generation of Americans equate Socialism with the bogey man. My own generation as far has I can tell is frankly has doubts on it. For any dramatic change in attitudes, you'll need a massive event to shake things loose or simple time. Time after all changes everything.

Let me devote this part of my post to Derek.
'm not sure I follow, especially considering the existance of worker-owned co-ops.
Most of those worker co-ops are either very small business or are frankly simply out competed by more traditional corps. The "co-ops" of the Soviet Union were anything but being state dictated to.
I think what socialists mean when they say "democratize the economy" is give a greater amount of power to labor in their own places of employment, either through unions that oppose capital or some degree of employee ownership/control of the means of production.
I'm generally okay with Unions as a concept but let's look at what happened to the auto industry. The Unions got out of control and become massive money sucking beasts that didn't benefit the average worker that much. There needs to be an organization that ensures that workers aren't abused or treated as cannon fodder yes. However the only people who should decide what a business does are the people who own it.
I think that the wing of the Democratic party inhabited by Dennis Kucinich, Barney Frank, Anthony Weiner and so forth represent a sort of ersatz social democrat party, but I think the reason why we don't have one is largely due to the way our elections work (as well as the Democratic party at large being willing to sometimes accept left-liberal ideas in its platform).
Then they suck at it. The Democrats are by no means a creditable example of Social Democrats. You can blame the way our elections work or anything else but while we have individuals who may be Social Democrat, we have no political organizations of any strength in the US that do so.

#10

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:55 am
by Cynical Cat
frigidmagi wrote:
Well no shit. Thank God I didn't base it on party titles. Otherwise I'd might be alarmed by the Christian Democrats of Germany.
Ah, the classic dissect your opponent's position into context devoid sentences for easy distortion. I can do that too.
Yes, it does have a communist party... One that has never been in power and is regulated to permanent minority coalition partner. In short they're like your New Democratic Party or the British Liberal Democrats. Sidekicks, also rans, Robins to the Batmen of the 2 main parties.
Well the NDP does have an effect on federal policy (there's the whole one payer medical system they got started) and does form provincial governments so they're far from powerless. Same deal with the Indian communists, who form state governments and influence policy. So far from powerless or uninfluential.
You're not a socialist nation.
I never called them one. Socialist politics are presence and have a voice in major parties though, which is my point.

Yes and? Still makes it a monopoly doesn't it? Here's the deal, I can't claim that the US system is better, because over here we have utilities monopolies to, only they're private ones out to wring every cent they can out of you without attracting to much government attention. What utility company you get is determined by where you live. Bluntly speaking I don't like that. The social democrat/socialist system is to replace this patchwork of monopolies with a single monopoly run by the government. No competition either way. I don't care for this. What I would prefer is a well policed and regulated competition where various companies have to compete for my business with a government watching them like hawks watching a pair of tasty mice. I don't know if that's practical so I tend to defer the issue and accept the majority opinion.
I live in a province which has several provincial monopolies that grossly outperform private equivalents (care insurance, power) that the right is always trying to privatize. A consumer oriented government utility is a far different beast than a private monopoly for a variety of reasons including true accountability to the users via government control and lack of worship of the almighty dollar.
I say that because frankly our system has Americans working themselves to fucking death and they don't get any of the wealth that results from that. That is clearly FUBAR.
The US has the highest inequality level of any Western Country. A recent book "The Spirit Level" (hilariously that's the term for a bubble level in Britain) goes into how much damage that does, even to the people on top.

So you can see why maybe I'm a tad wary? Voting for buzz words has given me nothing but trouble. Frankly though I think it's a hell of a stretch to put regulation into there. That's rule of law not democracy. Whenever someone has told me they wanted to "Democratize" something, they've wanted more voting, more committees and majority rules decisions. I'm pretty sure the Socialist party doesn't mean communism... I mean they would say that if they did right?
In the US, 90% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the population. Any policy that gives any control or regulation of the society's wealth or resources to a democratically elected government is, by definition, democratic because by giving people other than the 1% some influence.

Utterly and completely wrong. The Article itself is using that party has a rubric to decide Obama's socialist standing. If the American public decides it wants socialism, that's who they get. In terms of what socialism would be like in America, they're completely and utterly relevant. It's socialist parties in other nations who become irrelevant because we're talking about the politics of a completely different country. The political parties of Germany are irrelevant when discussing the politics of Poland for example.
Bullshit. The Conservative Party of Canada is as close to the US Republican Party as it can get away with. That's the truth and that's the most accurate and succinct description. If the US starts wanting socialism (besides the bits and pieces they already have and don't call socialist), what they'll get is whatever is the left wing of the Democratic Party can muster.

#11

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:19 pm
by frigidmagi
Ah, the classic dissect your opponent's position into context devoid sentences for easy distortion. I can do that too.
No, that's what you were already doing and giving me a good bit of condescension the bargain. Next time, instead of telling me my position, how about you ask my position?
Well the NDP does have an effect on federal policy (there's the whole one payer medical system they got started) and does form provincial governments so they're far from powerless. Same deal with the Indian communists, who form state governments and influence policy. So far from powerless or uninfluential.
At the same time they've never run a government nor are they going to. On the federal level they have as much power as their majority coalition partners let them have. They can kill individual bills and such but cannot dictate policy, witness how the Congress Party has led India (slowly) closer to the US and the west over it's coalition partner's (the commies) bitching and wailing.

I live in a province which has several provincial monopolies that grossly outperform private equivalents (care insurance, power) that the right is always trying to privatize. A consumer oriented government utility is a far different beast than a private monopoly for a variety of reasons including true accountability to the users via government control and lack of worship of the almighty dollar.
And India has monopolies where corruption ensures no body gets service unless they bribe people for it. The US has monopolies that ensure your insurance company has you by the balls whenever it wants to squeeze. The fact that you have a monopoly where the monopoly in question acts decently is not the rule, it's the fucking exception.
The US has the highest inequality level of any Western Country. A recent book "The Spirit Level" (hilariously that's the term for a bubble level in Britain) goes into how much damage that does, even to the people on top.
I'm assuming that's an agreement. Quick question are we counting the Asian "Tigers" in that? I'm not saying we should but I'd know.
In the US, 90% of the wealth is controlled by 1% of the population. Any policy that gives any control or regulation of the society's wealth or resources to a democratically elected government is, by definition, democratic because by giving people other than the 1% some influence.
Note: Cat's statistics are a little off. This was true awhile ago but the wealth has shifted. As of 2007, the top 1% controlled 42.7% of all privately held wealth, while the next 19% holds 50.03% of the wealth. The remaining 7% is split up amongst the remaining 80%. read about here in a socialogy primer

As far as I can tell this is pretty much true for the whole western world for example the top 10% of France owns 61% of the wealth (the same percentage in the US owns 69.8%). While in the UK and Canada the top 10% own 56% and 53% of the wealth. It's much worse in the 3rd world but the situation is radically different there, so direct comparison isn't very worthwhile.
If the US starts wanting socialism (besides the bits and pieces they already have and don't call socialist), what they'll get is whatever is the left wing of the Democratic Party can muster.
If the US starts wanting socialism, then the voting patterns will change to reflect it. In which politicians will start chasing the trend. For that to happen though would take something really big.

#12

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:23 pm
by Cynical Cat
frigidmagi wrote:
No, that's what you were already doing and giving me a good bit of condescension the bargain. Next time, instead of telling me my position, how about you ask my position?
How about you stop throwing mud at the parts of my country that work well with your "government monopolies are bad" lines? If I start badmouthing the US Marinie Corps, I'll expect fire from you. Now extend the same courtesy.
And India has monopolies where corruption ensures no body gets service unless they bribe people for it. The US has monopolies that ensure your insurance company has you by the balls whenever it wants to squeeze. The fact that you have a monopoly where the monopoly in question acts decently is not the rule, it's the fucking exception.
Most of the rest of the West manages to have similar systems. India isn't a first world western democracy. In fact only one of those four words apply. It's corrupt, poor, and has massive social inequality. Or the problem in the nutshell. When I argue that there aren't problems with government programs in countries in that kind of shape

1) It'll be very, very wrong

2) Have already converted to Islam.

I'm assuming that's an agreement. Quick question are we counting the Asian "Tigers" in that? I'm not saying we should but I'd know.
No.

As far as I can tell this is pretty much true for the whole western world for example the top 10% of France owns 61% of the wealth (the same percentage in the US owns 69.8%). While in the UK and Canada the top 10% own 56% and 53% of the wealth. It's much worse in the 3rd world but the situation is radically different there, so direct comparison isn't very worthwhile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

While the top percentage controls the majority of the wealth everywhere, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to calculating inequality (i.e. government subsidized university, child care, health care policies, etcetera). Western democracies do these things to a greater (eg Scandinavia) or lesser (US) degree and that affects overall inequality and standards of living. That's my point. A small percentage of really rich people don't hurt society as long as most of the rest are doing well.

Notice where the Third World shows up on the Gini Index.

#13

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:53 pm
by frigidmagi
How about you stop throwing mud at the parts of my country that work well with your "government monopolies are bad" lines? If I start badmouthing the US Marinie Corps, I'll expect fire from you. Now extend the same courtesy.
Expect I didn't say government monopolies are bad. I said I don't like monopolies. You'll note a difference in the two sentences. No one threw mud at Canada or claimed Canada was somehow bad. Hell I even pointed out things I liked. So frankly Cat, you seem to be reading something that just wasn't there.

And no, I will not apologize for not liking monopolies.
2) Have already converted to Islam.
Joke? I didn't catch it.
First I've heard of this. Let me dig at this awhile.

#14

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:01 pm
by Cynical Cat
frigidmagi wrote:[

And no, I will not apologize for not liking monopolies.

Not asking you to apologize. I am telling you if you go down that line, expect fire from me. There may be some straw and camel back breakage going on.

Joke? I didn't catch it.
India isn't a first world western democracy. In fact only one of those four words apply. It's corrupt, poor, and has massive social inequality. Or the problem in the nutshell. When I argue that there aren't problems with government programs in countries in that kind of shape:

1) I'll be very, very wrong

2) Have already converted to Islam.
Okay, I know my humour isn't mainstream, but honesty folks is this one that hard to understand? I'm not saying you should find it funny, but to me it's fairly damn straight forward.

#15

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:22 pm
by Batman
Well I officially have no sense of humour so I'm not a good benchmark really but it took me a while to get it.

#16

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:40 pm
by General Havoc
And I still don't get it at all.

#17

Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:54 pm
by Batman
Not that I can speak for but CC
'When I argue that there aren't problems with government programs in countries in that kind of shape:
1) I'll be very, very wrong
2) Have already converted to Islam. '
essentially seems to indicate that for him TO argue that, he'd already have to have gone stark raving mad.

#18

Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:28 am
by Cynical Cat
The Caped Crusader is correct.