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#1 Israelis and Palestinians: Agreeing to Talk, and to Fail

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:52 pm
by frigidmagi
Time
They won't be talking directly to each other, but at least the leaders of Israel and Palestine have a common objective in the "proximity talks" the Obama Administration is launching this week. Unfortunately, that shared goal is not to reach a final agreement on a two-state solution to their conflict — both sides know better than to expect that U.S. special envoy Senator George Mitchell's shuttling between Jerusalem and Ramallah will be able to bridge the chasm between their demands. Instead, the mutual goal in the latest round of talks is to avoid being blamed for their failure.

The very fact that two decades after the start of the Oslo peace process, the two sides are no longer even negotiating directly but instead communicating via the Americans is a clear sign of just how grim the prospects have become for achieving peace through bilateral talks. Both sides, in fact, are showing up for the U.S.'s latest version of a peace process largely to prove a point. For the Palestinians and their Arab backers, who have given the latest round of talks just four months to produce results (a deadline not endorsed by the Obama Administration), their purpose is to demonstrate to the U.S. that no credible peace agreement can be achieved with the hawkish government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and that creating a viable independent Palestinian state requires that the Americans press the Israelis to do things they're not going to do voluntarily. Setting conditions and deadlines is a way for Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to offset the domestic political damage he suffers from participating in endless rounds of fruitless negotiations. Abbas was helped by the fact that the new talks were endorsed by the Arab League last week, but the tone of its statement is telling: "Despite the lack of conviction in the seriousness of the Israeli side," said Arab League Secretary Amr Moussa, his committee agreed to back the talks "as a last attempt and to facilitate the U.S. role." (See pictures of 60 years of Israel.)

The Israelis, for their part, need to demonstrate good faith and position themselves to blame the Palestinians, as they have done up to now, for the absence of a peace deal. And Israeli officials make no bones about the fact that they need to go through the motions in order to pursue their own priority: resuming talks, a senior Israeli official told the daily Yediot Ahronot, "would create an atmosphere in the Arab world and the international community that would allow the world to focus on the real threat — Iran."

Netanyahu, after taking office, came around to talking of a two-state solution, which he had previously rejected, but at the same time he defined Palestinian statehood in terms too limited to be acceptable to the Palestinian leadership. Netanyahu had publicly opposed the offers made to the Palestinians by previous Israeli governments, and his government made clear last week that new talks would not begin from understandings reached with any of his predecessors but would instead start from scratch — a position vehemently rejected by the Palestinians. Of course, none of those previous offers had been accepted by the Palestinian leadership; it's hard to see how offering less than the proposals previously rejected by Abbas, as Netanyahu appears set to do, is going to break the deadlock. But Netanyahu will argue that Israel is willing to talk directly and without conditions and to use the Palestinians' refusal to do so as a basis to blame them for the stalemate. (See pictures of heartbreak in the Middle East.)

While in theory a peace process might require that the protagonists make tough choices, the "proximity" process being initiated by the Obama Administration will, in fact, land the tough choices on the desk in the Oval Office. Four months or more from now, it will probably become clear that the gap between Israel and Palestine is unlikely to be bridged by simply talking. And then the question will be, Is the U.S. willing to force the issue by putting on the table its own views of an acceptable settlement and beginning to press both sides toward accepting it? (See pictures of Obama's trips overseas.)

Even as Senator Mitchell shuttles between them, both sides appear set to escalate their confrontation on the ground, in growing battles over expanded Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem and elsewhere and over the status of various sites considered holy by both Jews and Muslims. Last Friday's confrontations between Israeli police and stone-throwing Palestinian youths in Jerusalem may be a portent that the latest round of peace talks could, in fact, be starting under the cloud of a looming intifadeh.
This is a sad thing, but prehaps inevitable. There are a number of issues here but to my mind there are two big ones that neither side will budge on.

1:Settlements. Israel has been building new settlements on Palestine land, this isn't opinion, it's undeniable fact. The Palestinians are not going to agree to peace while they feel that land is being yanked out from under them. Israel has to stop building settlements. I can't overstate this, if the settlements keep being built, there can be no peace. Israel's government must let this one go.

2: Right of Return. There are over 4 million refugees (of which 1 million living in Jordan have been granted Jordanian citizenship). Most of them despite being in these nations for Decades (Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Egypt hold large amounts) have not been granted citizenship or even basic rights. Israel is not going to let 3 or 4 million non-Jews come running in. It's not going to happen. You can scream this is racism, but frankly? So what. This isn't about making a perfect, peaceful world where race, gender and faith don't matter but ending a fucking war! The Arab states must accept that Israel isn't going to take them and resettle them in Arabian held lands.

#2

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:27 pm
by SirNitram
I increasingly wish for a world where the UN resolution that created Israel was actually FOLLOWED. But sadly, it was not, and instead of Palestine shrinking and becoming a bordering nation, it was rendered a dream contested by, let's be honest now, continual occupation.

Right or wrong, morality, you can't really say the area set aside for an Arab State is currently occupied.

#3

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:56 pm
by The Minx
There's also the issue of what is supposed to happen to Jerusalem. Both sides want that city to be the undivided capital of their state. That's just impossible.

#4

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:03 pm
by SirNitram
The Minx wrote:There's also the issue of what is supposed to happen to Jerusalem. Both sides want that city to be the undivided capital of their state. That's just impossible.
I still endorse the UN solution. A UN administered city split between both would still be ALOT better than the bullshit here, and this is with the fact I know the UN can barely manage a single tower.

#5

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:01 am
by The Minx
Link
Heli and Eli sell condos on Exodus Street, a name that evokes a certain historical hardship in a neighborhood that suggests none at all, the ingathering of the Jews having entered a whole new realm here. The talk in the little office is of interest rates and panoramic sea views from handsomely appointed properties selling on the Ashdod waterfront for half what people are asked to pay in Tel Aviv, 18 miles (29 km) to the north. And sell they do, hand over fist — never mind the rockets that fly out of Gaza, 14 miles (22.5 km) to the south. "Even when the Qassams fell, we continued to sell!" says Heli Itach, slapping a palm on the office desk. The skull on her designer shirt is made of sequins spelling out "Love Kills Slowly." "What the people see on the TV there is not true here," she says. "I sold, this week, 12 apartments. You're not client, I tell you the truth."

The truth? In the week that three Presidents, a King and their own Prime Minister gather at the White House to begin a fresh round of talks on peace between Israel and the Palestinians, the truth is, Israelis are no longer preoccupied with the matter. They're otherwise engaged; they're making money; they're enjoying the rays of late summer. A watching world may still define their country by the blood feud with the Arabs whose families used to live on this land and whether that conflict can be negotiated away, but Israelis say they have moved on. (See pictures of 60 years of Israel.)

Now observing 2½ years without a single suicide bombing on their territory, with the economy robust and with souls a trifle weary of having to handle big elemental thoughts, the Israeli public prefers to explore such satisfactions as might be available from the private sphere, in a land first imagined as a utopia. "Listen to me," says Eli Bengozi, born in Soviet Georgia and for 40 years an Israeli. "Peace? Forget about it. They'll never have peace. Remember Clinton gave 99% to Arafat, and instead of them fighting for 1%, what? Intifadeh." (See TIME's photo-essay "Palestinian 'Day of Rage.' ")

But wait. Deep down (you can almost hear the outside world ask), don't Israelis know that finding peace with the Palestinians is the only way to guarantee their happiness and prosperity? Well, not exactly. Asked in a March poll to name the "most urgent problem" facing Israel, just 8% of Israeli Jews cited the conflict with Palestinians, putting it fifth behind education, crime, national security and poverty. Israeli Arabs placed peace first, but among Jews here, the issue that President Obama calls "critical for the world" just doesn't seem — critical. (Comment on this story.)

Another whack for the desk. "The people," Heli says, "don't believe." Eli searches for a word. "People in Israel are indifferent," he decides. "They don't care if there's going to be war. They don't care if there's going to be peace. They don't care. They live in the day."

Another Time article on this topic, and IMHO a rather surprising one. Are Israeli Jews really that indifferent? I suppose it comes from the fact that there has been so little meaningful progress with the peace talks for so long that people don't care anymore. Interestingly, the Israeli Arabs seem to consider it a lot more important.

#6

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:13 am
by General Havoc
"Peace? Forget about it. They'll never have peace. Remember Clinton gave 99% to Arafat, and instead of them fighting for 1%, what? Intifadeh."
I think this sums the matter up very nicely.

#7

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:17 am
by frigidmagi
I would say from the comments in that article, they've given up on peace because they feel the other side will never accept any deal.

#8

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:02 am
by Ace Pace
frigidmagi wrote:I would say from the comments in that article, they've given up on peace because they feel the other side will never accept any deal.
Why should the average person here dream of a peace agreement? From the point of view of an Israeli, it has been one betrayal after the other. Oslo, the Intifada, the Gaza withdrawal. How do you expect anyone to seriously work towards peace?

I am obviously putting aside the many Israeli provocations, acts and lies, because to many Israelies they are more than justified in, for instance, bombing Gaza in reprisal for rocket attacks on towns. Many people here seem to go "Yeah, We've been total assholes, but we tried, they didn't. Fuck them."

Yeah...

#9

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:14 am
by frigidmagi
To be fair, I think the average Palestinian would accept a deal and a peace, if just for the chance to build a fucking life. However, many of the leaders of the Palestinians don't want that. Let's be honest. Does anyone really think that the leaders of HAMAS want a peace with an Israeli state? HAMAS wants Israel destroyed and as many Jews as possible dead and they're not the only organization that wants that.

On the flip side, it's also clear that the current government of Israel to say the very least also doesn't want a peace that results in a Palestinian state that isn't utterly under Israel's thumb. Their idea of a Palestinian state is one where Isreal controls all the access, all the resources and can send troops or police in at will.

#10

Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:50 pm
by General Havoc
There's an old saying that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Might have been Abba Eban. Not sure.