STGOD?

[Cynical Cat]

I want decent tanks. And if airforces are going to cost as much as navies and we're playing before good carriers, then the planes/dirgibles/rocket ships/whatever should be decent.

[General Havoc]

I'm ambivelant as to the starting date, though I wrote my Historical Material from the perspective of 1905.

[General Havoc]

I know the below is long and boring, but I wanted to record the history of my Roman Republic and Empire as I saw it. I've tried to ensure it won't get in the way of anyone else's history, but if it does, just let me know and I'll be happy to make adjustments:



Transcription of the Muneris Prescribo Senatum, 101st session, read aloud in the Senate Comitia at the commencement ceremonies for the Consuls-elect.

These being the words of Gulielmus Marconius Gnarus Marchio, recorded in Florentia, Etrurian Prefecture, Italia, SPQR, in the year of the consulship of Dionysius Sonnius Hybrida Legiferus and Eleutherius Venizelus Ethnarchus. Ab Urbe Condita MMDCLVIII (Anno Domine MCMV)

There was once a world that was Rome.

In the days of glory, Rome was civilization, for while the rest of the world was mired in darkness, barbarism, and obscurity, Rome was the light. All roads led to her gates, and from them poured invincible armies that cast down kings and empires, overturned nations, and expanded her influence to every corner of the world, her authority so vast that every nation turned to her for protection, influence, and tutelage in the ways of culture. A time there was when a Roman could walk the breadth of the world, protected by nothing but the magic of Rome's name, and know himself inviolate, so absolute was the writ of Rome that even brigands and pirates dared not gainsay it. For a thousand years and more, Rome weathered every shock, overcame every foe, spread the wings of the Eagles from Britannia to Ægyptus, the Pontus Euxinus to the Oceanus Atlanticus. For while her people endured, while her leaders remained devoted to her greatness, no force on Earth could withstand the might of Rome.

Yet such things as devotion and glory are not eternal, and as corruption and greed permeated Rome, she faltered. Her leaders and Emperors squandered their energies in futile wars over the throne, while her people died or were enslaved. Barbarians swarmed over undefended borders, and burned cities and provinces to ash, while Emperors fiddled amidst ruins, or occupied themselves caring for poultry. Her strength depleted, her defenders gone, Rome fell at long last, and with her fell the entire world. Bereft of her protection, the civilized lands fell into collapse and anarchy. Foreign men with foreign Gods swept through the lands of the tattered Empire, and Italy itself, who since time immemorial had looked to Rome to protect it, was subjected to a gang-rape lasting centuries. Lombards, Vandals, Visigoths, Franks, Normans, and even our own former brethren from the so-called Byzantine Empire ravaged our country, our lands, people, and beautiful city over and over again, until Rome was nothing but a heap of ruins, and Italy a sterile desert, abandoned by the Gods, or so it seemed.

Yet not even the worst of our degradations could eclipse what we once were. Not for nothing did all roads lead to Rome, for even as they cast us down, the barbarians could not help but to follow our lead. For thousands of years after our collapse, still the learned men of the world spoke Latin, still the would-be rulers of the world called themselves Caesar, Augustus, or some similar corruption in their own tongues, and used our forgotten numerals to style their churches and seals and even their own reignal titles. Though men from William to Charlemagne to Barbarossa flattered themselves with the thought that they were our equal, they knew that they could never re-create what Rome had been, and done, and was, for the strength of Rome was not founded on the might of Emperors and Kings. Rome was an ideal, a world, a dream that was never quite permitted to die. Those who did not share it were doomed to forever reflect poorly against the glory that was, for as Plutarch said, "What is History, but the praise of Rome?"

In the Anno Domini Thirteen Hundred and Nine, two thousand years after the foundation of the city, Rome was abandoned at long last by her last protector. Pope Clement V left Rome, preferring to live in the town of Avennio, then called Avignon. His reason was political, for he considered Rome a backwards nothingness, a heap of ruins unfit for the Papal throne, long-since dominated by the Frankish kings. Leaving legates behind to force the city to obey his wishes, he left Rome to stew in the maelstrom of Italian civic politics. Yet it proved that control of what were called the "Papal states" was impossible at a remove. People and nobles alike resented the absentee rule of a dis-interested Pontiff, yet no other nation or state bothered to step in to fill the void, for what value was Rome now, the dwelling place of ruined dreams and vanished ghosts?

In the old days, it was said that there were three founders of Rome. One was Romulus. The second was Marcus Furius Camillius, conqueror of Veii, and four times Triumphator. The third was Gaius Marius, who destroyed the Cimbrian Germans and stood Consul seven times in the last days of the old Republic. In the Fourteenth Century, the fourth founder of Rome arose in the form of Cola di Rienzo, or as we call him today Nicolus Princeps Tribunus. Originally a papal envoy to the abandoned city, Rienzo seized control by papal command, yet his actions were anything but pontifical. Rienzo had been working for years to place himself in a position to lead Rome, believing himself destined to restore its former glory. Perhaps the Gods spoke to him. Perhaps he made his own destiny.

Within a year of Rienzo's taking power, the Black Plague burst into Italy. Rome, an abandoned backwater, long since deserted by international trade, was spared most of its effects, for the plague could not spread down abandoned roads. The rest of Italy was not. 40% of the Peninsula died in the plague, and in the chaos and wars that followed, as towns were abandoned, cities became abattoirs, and bandits and lawless mercenary companies devastated the scattered towns of Italy. Left entirely to her own resources, the Roman people along with the few nobles who would follow Rienzo were forced to take up arms on their own behalf, having no money to hire on mercenaries nor the protection of the Papal residence. So it was that history came full circle, as ad-hoc militias of Romans skirmished with bandits and petty warlords in and around Latium and central Italy.

As other cities withered or groaned under the predation of the Condoterii, the Romans gradually freed their lands from lawlessness. Towns in the area began to look to Rome for protection, her makeshift army marching further and further afield with each passing year. Rienzo's reconstituted Senate, at first a mere advisory council of local nobles, was established as body politic to run the affairs of the city, under his own auspices. He continued to govern the city under the auspices of the Pope until the invasion of Louis, the Duke of Anjou, whom the Pope had deputed to establish an Italian kingdom called Adria. Upon arriving in the vicinity of Rome, pillaging the local countryside in the manner of period armies, Anjou demanded the city's submission to him as its lawful ruler. Rienzo responded by calling out his army. The enraged Roman citizens, hardened by twelve years of constant war in Latium, penned French knights in a compact mass around the Milvian Bridge, and butchered them wholesale, leaving Enguerrand de Coucy to lead the shattered remnants back to France in disorder.

Rienzo had believed he was acting on behalf of the Pope, who was theoretically the lawful ruler of Rome, defending the city against a Frankish invader. Yet the Papacy in Avignon was a creature of the French court, and the Pope's reaction to the Battle of the Campus Martius was to excommunicate Rienzo, and every soldier or nobleman who had dared raise arms against the French invaders. When word of this spread through the city, the messengers from Avignon were pelted with ordure by an enraged crowd of commoners and nobles alike, and Rienzo was prevailed upon to declare himself King of Rome, burning the Bull of Excommunication in St. Peter's square, after which point he declared publicly his intention to restore Rome to its rightful place in Italy and the World, to the rapturous delight of the citizens of the Eternal City.

For forty years, the Romans campaigned through Italy. With most of its nobles and knights gone to Avignon, Rome had no choice but to establish an army of infantry in a world of mounted chivalry. Classicist that he was, Rienzo re-organized the people of Rome into what he termed "New Legions", disciplined units of foot soldiers capable of sustaining and repelling the charges of mounted knights with a combination of formation warfare, pikework, and archery, employing such Roman nobility as remained as "Tribunes" or "Centurions" in command of the new force. Yet rather than any tactical genius, it was the sheer existence of any disciplined, armed force levied from the citizens of the city that beat down all resistance from the bandits and mercenary bands that plagued Italy. One by one, the cities of Central and Southern Italy joined to Rome's new crusade, some willingly, some not so. Neapolis, exhausted by civil war, asked for Rome's protection and mediation after the oppressed people could sustain no more and butchered their squabling rulers in a single blood-sated night. Brindisium and Tarentum broke their allegiance to France, expelling Norman and Papal garrisons, and were received as Allies of the Roman People. A hasty coalition of northern Italian cities under the leadership of Mediolanum (then called Milan) was torn apart by factionalism and intrigue, leading Genua and Pisa to appeal to Rome in their own defense. Florentia's government sought to fight Rome's rising influence, deeming it a threat to her own affairs, but when her army was shattered at the Battle of Trasemene, she too sued for peace. In each city's case, the magistrates and leaders were allowed to remain in place, the cities subjected to no sacks provided they acknowledged Rome as their overlord, and contributed to her armies, which swelled with each passing year. Even Rienzo's assassination in the twenty-third year of the campaign did not materially slow Rome, for each victory made the next one easier. In truth, drained and exhausted by a millennium of rapine, slaughter, and internecine warfare, the Italians too longed for the days when the writ of Rome was universal.

Galleazo Visconti's death in 1395 ended the last real opposition to the unification of Italy, and by the beginning of the 15th century (Anno Domine), Italy was whole from the Po River to Calabria for the first time in twelve centuries. Though the now-schismatic popes of Avignon still hurled down bulls and calls for Crusade, none of the other powers of Europa were able to gainsay this sudden re-eruption of Roman power. This success, combined with the early stirrings of what would become known as the Renascentia Italica, fostered peace and relative prosperity in Italy for the first time in centuries. The re-awakening of classical ideals and humanism, fostered by thinkers such as Petrarch or Picus Mirandula, scientists such as Galileius or Andreas Vesalius, and artists such as Leonardus Vincius or Michael Angelus Bonarotius, brought the dynamism of the classical world back to the forefront of civilization, and as Italy fused into a unified whole, powerful senatorial families, such as the Borgii, Medicii, Corstinii, and Orsinii patronized great works of art and the reconstruction of lost masterpieces of the classical world.

Alone among the cities of Italy, Venicia or Venice was founded after the fall of the first Roman Empire. Protected by its lagoon and invincible fleet, as well as its wealth, it alone proved immune to Rome's all-encompassing crusade. The two sparred ineffectively for three decades. Rome's Legions attempted twice to storm Venice from the sea, both times ending in debacle. Venice called down aid from the Duke of Bavaria, but his armies were struck while crossing the river Po and decimated on the spot. In the end, the war finished not with a bang but a whimper. Her finances crumbling under the assault of the Turks from the east, and drained by the wars with Rome, the Venetian Republic agreed to a concord with Rome, becoming "Friend and Ally of the Roman People", a status which, over the next two centuries, became more and more indistinguishable from a constituent province of Rome itself, yet preserved the glories of the City of Bridges through to the present.

Venice's submission opened the horizons of the New Rome to beyond her own shores, for Venice held possessions in Greece, where the Byzantine Empire, the last direct link to the Roman world of old, was finally succumbing to the onslaught of the Turks of the Ottomanii. Brought under seige by the Ottomanii Sultan Mehmed II in 1453, all would likely have been lost had not the First Rome ridden to the aid of the Second. Unlooked for and unheralded, the beleaguered denizens of Constantinopolis awoke on the morning of the 23rd of May, after a night where the moon rose in eclipse, to find a fleet of Roman and Venetian ships sailing to their rescue, carrying six full legions of redoubtable Roman and Allied infantry. Though these forces were still outnumbered by the Turkish army, the following day the swarming Turks were put to rout by the combined Greco-Roman armies. Mehmet died in the pillaging of the Ottomanii camp, and the Turks were delivered a blow they would never recover from. Though saved from the flames, Constantinopolis was impoverished and nearly deserted, and had therefore no choice but to accept Roman protection and suzerainty, having to choose largely between the Saracens and the Latins. Though there still festered bad blood after the events of the Fourth crusade, under Rome's guidance, Constantiopolis would recover from its Nadir to once more resume its position as the second city of the Empire.

Now firmly embroiled in Greek and Asian affairs, the Romans pressed on with a will. Though the popes had finally returned to Rome, the days of crusades against the Orthodox Greeks were over, as was the subjugation of Rome to the will of the Pontifex Maximus. Moreover, attempts to expand the empire north into the domain of the Helvetican cities ended in disaster when four Legions of troops were met at the Battle of Turicum by a combined Frankish-Germanic host and torn to ribbons, a defeat that sent the shivers of Teutoburg through the Roman dominion. Having invested in the recovery of the old Eastern Roman Empire in any event, the Romans threw themselves into campaign after campaign in that direction, leaving the Northerners to their own affairs. One by one, the lands and cities of Asia Minor returned to the fold, some being repopulated by Romans or Italians, others (by far the majority) by Greeks, and some submitting wholesale with their Turcic populations intact. Under the command of leaders like Sebastianus Venierus and Andreas Dorius Navarchus Asiaticus, the independent Turcic and Saracen sultanates were gradually swept from the seas and coasts of Cilicia and the Mediterranean Islands. Despite defeats, setbacks, and occasional periods of retreat, the inexorable advance of the Legions could not be stopped by the scattered, leaderless Turcic tribes, most of whom were driven out of Anatolia entirely by the 17th century, save some few who had settled permanently in the Cappadocian Highlands and were incorporated into the expanding Empire as the "Auxilia Turciae".

So it was that for the next two centuries, the Roman Legions spread across the Mediterranean once more in bloody games of give and take. When the Jihad poured out of Syria and into Asia Minor, the Romans and their Greek allies ralied, and held, and drove it slowly back into the wilds of Arabia. When the Barbary Pirates raided Ostia and Sicily, the Romans took their wars to Africa for the fourth time. The Moorish citadel of Tunis fell after an eleven year siege, and from its ashes, Carthage rose anew, soon to become the heart of Roman Africa. One by one, the pirate nests in Algiers, in Oran, in Tripoli were stormed and conquered, and the Arab and Berber populations drawn into Auxiliary Legions to further the glory of Rome. Sicily had passed into the Roman circle with the annexation of Naples, Sardinia and Corsica soon followed, and with the union of Castille and Portugal, King Ferdinand of Aragon tied himself to Rome, as a means of preventing subsumation by his larger neighbors. Even Provence was absorbed, pried slowly from the grip of the Frankish kings, and finally annexed formally when the Romans deposed the last Anti-Pope of Avennio, bringing the original "Province" back into the Roman fold.

As centuries progressed, and the Kingdom of Rome grew mighty, not all was well at the top, for the Kings of Rome quarreled with one another and with their allied subject-rulers. Rebellions erupted in far flung reaches of the Empire, and brief, bloody civil wars periodically raged between rival claimants of the House of Rienzo. The worst of these, the Falernian War, lasted twelve bitter years, and reduced large portions of Italy to desolate ruin, as rival Legions battled one another and the Empire teetered on the brink. Yet the dissolution that most predicted did not occur, thanks to the efforts of a Roman citizen from the isle of Corsica.

Napoleon Buonapartus Magnus Restutitor, originally a mere Centurion from minor nobility on the island of Corsica, became a hero in the great Peninsular War. Spain's attempt to re-posess the lost lands of Catalonia and Aragonia touched off a bitter war wherein the forces of Rome were hard pressed and threatened with disaster. Napoleon's magnificent campaigns in Iberia turned the tide of the war, and trounced the Spanish and so-called "Holy Roman" coalitions of forces deployed against him. Returning in Triumph to Rome, he found a nation gripped by turmoil as the civil wars threatened to break loose once more, while the various allied and provincial territories of the Roman Empire were teetering on the brink of revolt, demanding a share in the rule of the Empire as well. This was the age of "Enlightenment", when nations as far afield as America or France had begun to look back to the ideals of Old Rome, founding Senates of their own on new Capitoline hills. Whether a classicist with an eye to history, or an opportunistic politician looking to cement his own rule (both have been argued), Napoleon acted. For the second time in two thousand years, the Kings were driven from Rome, and the Senate made to swear to never tolerate their kind again. The supporters of the exiled King took up arms, but Napoleon thrashed them in a series of whirlwind campaigns all across the Mediterranean. A provincial himself (though a Citizen), Napoleon managed to quickly gain the support of most of the Provinces of the Empire by promising the extension of suffrage and the return to Republican rule. After conquering the exiled King's supporters, defeating the Dervishes of Egypt and local Emirs of Palestine, and annexing their territories to the Empire, Napoleon returned to Rome, was hailed as Triumphator, and became the First Consul of the Roman Republic. In a dazzling spate of legislation, Napoleon reformed the justice code and financial footing of the Empire, while establishing the principles of the modern Roman government, basing the offices and magistracies in the Cursus Honorum of old. For the first time in two thousand years, Tribunes of the People held forth in Rome, as elected Praetors and Quaestors were deputed by the various provinces to lend their weight to the affairs of the Empire. Some claimed that Napoleon's intent was to reform the Empire under himself as Emperor. Others that he was a patriot in the mold of Lucius Junius Brutus.

In the end, it did not matter. Perceiving the Empire weak, a horde of Germanic and Frankish troops poured into Italy and Provence in 1807, brushing aside the weak Roman garrisons that remained to contain them. Officially they were there to restore the authority of the Roman Kings, unofficially to restore Provence to the rule of France, and place Germany in a dominant position over Northern Italy. Neither of these things occurred. Napoleon rushed north at the head of a scratch army and crushed the main Germanic thrust at Rivoli, driving the German army back over the Alps. Crossing the Alps into southern France, Napoleon then managed to relieve Massalia before the Frankish could invest it. The winter was spent maneuvering, before Napoleon finally was brought to battle by a combined Franco-German army near the citadel of Aix Capellus. In one of the most impressive military displays of all time, Napoleon's legions outmaneuvered and shattered the larger Franco-German army, utterly destroying the bulk of its forces and driving the remnants back into central France. Napoleon himself did not survive the battle, struck down by an errant cannonball, which prevented the bloodied Roman army from pursuing, but the victory won for Rome the Peace of Trier, preserving the Republic that Napoleon had created, and his military and domestic achievements more than entitled Napoleon Buonapartus to wear the Cognomen "Magnus Restuditor", and the title of the Fifth Founder of Rome.

Spain's humiliating defeat and the resulting peace left Rome in possession, for the first time, of colonies beyond the Mediterranean. Along with the rock of Gibraltar, one of the Pillars of Hercules, the settlement at the end of the war left to Rome the Insulae Accipitrinae, the Insulae Canariae, and of course the great islands of the Mare Caribicum, Antillia Major (locally known as 'Cuba') and Antillia Minor (locally known as 'Jamaica'). The need for the fledgling republic to defend these islands led to the expansion of the Roman Navy into a world-class fighting force, though subordinate, as always, to the needs of the Legions.

Today, in the Two thousand, Six hundred, and Fifty-Eighth year of the City of Rome, we are not yet what we once were. While our Empire has prospered, and our Republic endured, other nations are yet as strong and as great as we. The days when Rome alone represented the world are over, for other nations and lands lay claim to prominence and pre-eminence. Some of these nations threaten our borders and our Empire, others our colonies, and still others our economic well-being or political stability. Dangers await us in the future, potentially grave ones, and all true Romans will be forced to face them. Such however is the price of greatness, the price of the citizenship of Rome, the price of service to the greatest city in the world. It is a price that we, as Romans, must pay gladly, as all the peoples of our Empire do. After two thousand years, our empire is whole once more, no longer split between Greek and Roman, for if our history has taught us anything, it is that neither can survive while the other falls. So it is with the Turciae, the Arabici, and the other Auxilia that fill our Legions in exchange for their citizenship, even those of the Insulae Antilia in the uttermost West. A man may die. A city may burn. A kingdom may be overthrown or a legion utterly destroyed, but above all things, Rome lasts forever.

Gloria in Exelsis Roma Æterna!

[Hadrianvs]

Well, thanks to frigidmagi, I think I shall join up as an India where the Mughal Empire got its own version of Frederick the Great and thus the subcontinent never got gobbled up by the Europeans... or at least not as much, as I see the southern tip has been claimed as a colony already, this will require a bit of work.

The Mughal Empire never held the southern tip of India, your bigger problem is that the Indus valley and Afghanistan have been claimed by the Persians. I expect the two of you shall not have a very friendly back-story.

Alright ladies and gents, I want a quick sound off on what starting date you prefer. It keeps coming despite me thinking it was settled, so let's get it done now.

I want 1905 on the grounds that the race for the All-Big-Gun Battleship (or Dreadnought if you prefer) offers a wealth of role-playing opportunities that would be a shame to waste. Right off the bat the major powers would have something to do and write about while we find our legs in-game. It's a revolutionary, exciting, and scary time for naval powers, and even land focused nations shall take note of the rapidly evolving changes.

Sorry ladies and gentlemen, but I'm going to have to formally withdraw before the game gets going. However, I will be watching.

I don't suppose anyone will trust me with NPC Japan?

[Cynical Cat]

I have no problem with 1905 tech for ships and having the battleship race. We've got some nontrivial timeline deviations and that's going to affect technological development.

[Academia Nut]

Either 1905 or 1910 sounds good to me, but if they're set at those times perhaps we should remove the air power category from the rules as the planes wouldn't be very useful at either of those points in time. Or at least expand on what sort of planes we would be getting.

The Mughal Empire never held the southern tip of India, your bigger problem is that the Indus valley and Afghanistan have been claimed by the Persians. I expect the two of you shall not have a very friendly back-story.

Hmmm... I may have overestimated how far up the territory was claimed on the map. However, I'm getting a bit of a vibe of some of the changes that could have occurred with a resurgant Roman Empire. Of course, the trick with that is that such a large, relatively early change could very well have meant that the Mughals never existed. I could see the re-emergence of the Romans causing a sort of rebound effect in the East, though, explaining how Afghanistan and the Indus valley were lost, but also why places like Thailand and Burma were conquered. I will definitely have to coordinate with the Persian player on this one, as well as green (Polish?) player who has claimed the southern tip of India.

[Ezekiel]

Well, you guys seem to have steadily raced along while I've been fighting through a miserable week at work.

Given the state of the map (which really needs to be shinied up - something I'm willing to do tonight if frigid doesn't mind), I seem to be pigeonholed into playing the CSA/RRA, for lack of a better idea that is feasible in this reality. Anybody got any suggestions?

Also, I vote 1900-1905 for startdate. I love me dem predreads.

EDIT: dear god pacifica is enormous what's going on aaaaaaaaaaaa

EDIT2: *sadface at Venezuela belonging to Germans and not the RRA*

[Hadrianvs]

I know the below is long and boring, but I wanted to record the history of my Roman Republic and Empire as I saw it. I've tried to ensure it won't get in the way of anyone else's history, but if it does, just let me know and I'll be happy to make adjustments.

Well, it doesn't get in the way of the Russian claim to being the successor to Constantine's Rome, which was the main thing that concerned me. Though I am dissapointed that Constantinople never fell. I was really hoping that the Ottoman Empire would turn into the huge Vienna-sieging threat to Europe that it was historically, and had to be ground-down to nothingness over the centuries by the concentrated efforts of the Romans, Hungarians, and Russians. It seemed a wonderfully Epic thing to have as part of the back story: going from a seemingly implacable dark hour for Christendom to the triumphant reconquest of Constantinople and the Holy Land. As it is the Romans just have a Big Damn Heroes moment and the Turks never become as big and threatening as historical.

Incidentally you can prevent the unification of Castille and Aragon by simply having the Portuguese guy that Isabel of Castille was going to marry not die suddenly. It was a random illness he could have easily not gotten, IIRC. That would mean the marriage occurs as planned and the thrones of Portugal and Castille are united. So Aragon would be the odd man out in Spain rather than Portugal. It sounds way better than killing Ferdinand off when it's convenient. Then Ferdinand can marry Roman royalty, which is more realistic as that's how crowns were unified back in the day.

[Ezekiel]

*snipped - unnecessary post*

[General Havoc]

Editted my history to add more details about Napoleon, and fix a few mistakes.

I'll take those suggestions into advisement, Hadrianvs. I couldn't find a better method for seizing Aragon besides Ferdinand's untimely death, but I didn't know about Catherine's prior plans. I might add that in.

As to Constantinople, I grant that your solution is more epic, and I'm willing to consider it. The problem is that I needed Rome to reverse the tide of Turkish domination while there was still enough of a Greek Anatolia left to salvage. If I waited until the 16th century, then Turkey would no longer be Anatolia or Asia Minor, and Constantinople quite firmly Istanbul. I wanted the Anatolian highlands to be predominately Greek, not Turkish, though I suppose in retrospect there's no particular reason why they need to be. In addition, I didn't want to write anything that would force Cyncat (as Hungary) or yourself (as Russia) to conform with a historical campaign or movement that you didn't want, and so I took it upon myself to save Byzantium. Finally, I wasn't convinced that it was plausible for a revitalized Roman Empire to actually conquer the Ottomans at their height, particularly given that I had to finalize the conquest prior to 1800. If you wish though, and obviously with Cyncat's blessing, we can adjust my (and of course your) narratives to reflect a more gradual rollback of the Ottoman Empire.

[Hotfoot]

1930

[Steve]

I'm loathe to do anything after 1930. As much as I enjoyed the thought of carriers when setting up SDNW3, I've come around to wanting dreadnoughts as kings of the sea and a start in 1930 means we're less than a decade away from the carrier's rise.

Count me down for 1905 or 1910.

[Ezekiel]

After having asked Rhoenix's permission and gotten his go-ahead, I would like to establish my claim on Japan and not the American South.

surgeon general's warning: japanese territory may (will) change, but full and proper warning shall be given. Mostly I just want to personalize it. expect me to claim less, not more.

[Ezekiel]

*snip'd*

[frigidmagi]

fter having asked Rhoenix's permission and gotten his go-ahead, I would like to establish my claim on Japan and not the American South.

surgeon general's warning: japanese territory may (will) change, but full and proper warning shall be given. Mostly I just want to personalize it. expect me to claim less, not more.

You are of course well within your rights to take Japan and to claim whatever you wish. Bluntly though if you don't take similar claims, it's gonna strain belief, Japan to put it simply needs a colonial empire to feed resources to it's industry and maintain a protective shield against aggressive Euro and North American powers, but that's just my opinion. Also if you're gonna claim less, we need more Asian players or there's no way for us to interact with each other.

[Hadrianvs]

I'll just re-iterate my belief that there should be a showdown over Korea and Manchuria between Russia and the Japanese player. Whether this showdown is diplomatic, military, or both, remains to be seen. The point is that conflict is a good thing in these games, regardless of whether it results in bitter enemies or best friends forever.

[Slacker]

I'm okay with '05 or '10, but in either case we're either going to ahistorically develop aircraft earlier (not a big challenge given the number of timeline changes going on) or drop aircraft from the initial calculations.

Looking at the map, it just makes sense if I merge my Gambia/Liberia-Sierra Leone Claims, so I'll claim Guinea as well.

[Hadrianvs]

As to Constantinople, I grant that your solution is more epic, and I'm willing to consider it. The problem is that I needed Rome to reverse the tide of Turkish domination while there was still enough of a Greek Anatolia left to salvage. If I waited until the 16th century, then Turkey would no longer be Anatolia or Asia Minor, and Constantinople quite firmly Istanbul. I wanted the Anatolian highlands to be predominately Greek, not Turkish, though I suppose in retrospect there's no particular reason why they need to be.

Entering the 20th century there was still a considerable number of Greeks in Western Anatolia, particularly in the coast. In fact after losing the First World War the region around Izmir was originally ceded to Greece by the Ottoman government. This was reversed shortly afterward by force of arms under Mustafa Kemal's leadership. After the Greco-Turkish War approximately 1.5 million Greeks fled from Asia Minor and Turkish Thrace, while half a million Turks fled from Greece in the opposite direction.

In addition, I didn't want to write anything that would force Cyncat (as Hungary) or yourself (as Russia) to conform with a historical campaign or movement that you didn't want, and so I took it upon myself to save Byzantium. Finally, I wasn't convinced that it was plausible for a revitalized Roman Empire to actually conquer the Ottomans at their height, particularly given that I had to finalize the conquest prior to 1800. If you wish though, and obviously with Cyncat's blessing, we can adjust my (and of course your) narratives to reflect a more gradual rollback of the Ottoman Empire.

I do not know about Cyncat, but since I'm playing an Imperial Russia that is essentially historical, with only some minor changes in the 19th century. An extended series of campaigns against the Ottomans plays perfectly into the history I had planned. Especially so because my territory extends into Anatolia itself. What's more, since my Russia is so historical it would actually be unable to sustain extended campaigning down south until well into the 1600s. As late as 1571 the Muscovites were still struggling with the Crimean Khanate, which successfully burnt Moscow to the ground that year, never mind the Ottomans. However, a century later those same Muscovites were capturing Azov. If we can get the Poles and Hungarians to play ball, then the Great Turkish War (1662-1699) would play out almost historically. Except this time around the subsequent wars over the following century and change are far more aggressive, resulting in the Turks eventually being annihilated.

[Cynical Cat]

The aftermath of WWI involved a lot of ugly relocation/flight of ethnic minorities as countries got chopped up along ethnic nationalist lines. Ethnographically the map of Europe really changed post WWI as whole communities fled to countries their ancestors had left centuries ago. It's one of the war's many tragedies.

As for my deviation point I'm going with Matthias Corvinus enjoying a little more success in life and having a strong successor to build on what he made. I'm definitely pro-long war against the Turks.

I want at least a few decent goddamn tanks and some good goddamn airplanes if my airforce is going to cost the same amount of points as a goddamn navy.

[Hadrianvs]

I want at least a few decent goddamn tanks

One of the reasons I keep pushing for 1905 is precisely because I don't want tanks. In fact, I would be happy if by act of God nobody manages to developed the things for 20 years. Not that I'm not seriously expecting that to happen. Tanks will be developed when the need for them arises, meaning there's a war on and the front hasn't been moving fast enough, and it would be a boring game if it takes 20 years for us to start a massive multi-alliance war.

[Ezekiel]

I'll just re-iterate my belief that there should be a showdown over Korea and Manchuria between Russia and the Japanese player. Whether this showdown is diplomatic, military, or both, remains to be seen. The point is that conflict is a good thing in these games, regardless of whether it results in bitter enemies or best friends forever.

Speaking as the Tenno, I'm all for it. The Russo-Japanese War certainly forshadowed WWI in some ways and clearly demonstrated the difficulties of engagement between pre-dreadnought lines, so I look forward to the one time when predreads were still worth anything in battle.

[General Havoc]

Hrm, well all right then Hadrianvs, I will revise the destruction of the Ottomans to take place later and over a longer period of time. I suppose it's more historically reasonable that way, as no doubt the Ottomans contrived to inflict several defeats that slowed the Romans progress before succumbing.

[Cynical Cat]

I want at least a few decent goddamn tanks

One of the reasons I keep pushing for 1905 is precisely because I don't want tanks. In fact, I would be happy if by act of God nobody manages to developed the things for 20 years. Not that I'm not seriously expecting that to happen. Tanks will be developed when the need for them arises, meaning there's a war on and the front hasn't been moving fast enough, and it would be a boring game if it takes 20 years for us to start a massive multi-alliance war.

So you get the toys you want and I don't get mine? I wonder why I don't find that appealing.

[Academia Nut]

Okay, here's my thought on things:

Either set it at 1905/1910 and remove the air power statistic, or set it later and allow for air power. If a bunch of players want dreadnoughts and are afraid of having them become obsolete because of airpower, the don't allow airpower in the first place. But be aware that if you take away that option you're going to leave those that want planes dissatisfied with the fact that they can't play the force that they want. Of course, the point must be raised that this is a game with rules that prevent everyone from having the exact forces that they want.

So work to define what it is that you all want from this game before this all turns into a giant shitstorm, and then define the rules to fit the parameters agreed upon. Bickering about the date right now isn't going to get anywhere if you can't agree on what you want the feel to be like.

[Hotfoot]

As I outlined in the chat, without planes and tanks, combat is very, well, bland. On the ground you're not going to get a lot of movement because artillery will rain down death and destruction on those fortunate few who manage to get past the first few lines of machine guns until they get stopped by the last few lines of machine guns. On the ocean, well, it's a slightly different story, but it's hardly the tale of modern naval warfare since carriers would be in their early childhood at best.

The chances of technological development mid-game is going to be damn near zero, so it's not like someone's going to develop an exocet missile or something.

Heck, if people want it'd be relatively easy to make ahistorical anti-aircraft ships to counter the utility of air power on the ocean, forcing the point of line of sight battles.