Grand Strategic STGODs

[Rogue 9]

The Krell were going to get the shit bombarded out of them until 5th Fleet was beaten into the ground in any event. See, nothing quite pisses me off more than claiming you're immune to retribution simply because your motive for engaging in acts of war was cold, hard cash. His claims to the contrary, he was a belligerent nation and would have been treated as one had the game not ended where it did.

[Thirdfain]

The Krell were going to get the shit bombarded out of them until 5th Fleet was beaten into the ground in any event. See, nothing quite pisses me off more than claiming you're immune to retribution simply because your motive for engaging in acts of war was cold, hard cash. His claims to the contrary, he was a belligerent nation and would have been treated as one had the game not ended where it did.

*lol* As you may recall, your forces were overstretched, and you had a little to much on your hands to be assaulting anyone, much less the somewhat distant Krell.

And the Krell were no more immune to retribution than anyone else. Your decisions were what protected him, nothing more and nothing less.

[SirNitram]

PS, The Krell were securely on my side for whatever post-war maneuvering erupted. You would have been alone.

The Overseer had no illusions about having allies. It was going to rely on being a military-industrial complex, as it always did, and on the fact that killing it in a long-term way was near impossible.

The Krell and Ousters, however, would not exist as they no-doubt planned to in the aftermath.

[Thirdfain]

The Overseer had no illusions about having allies. It was going to rely on being a military-industrial complex, as it always did, and on the fact that killing it in a long-term way was near impossible.

The Krell and Ousters, however, would not exist as they no-doubt planned to in the aftermath.

I'm sure whatever little follow up wars which erupted would have been interesting, however, arguing about it is pretty academic.

[Rogue 9]

The Krell were going to get the shit bombarded out of them until 5th Fleet was beaten into the ground in any event. See, nothing quite pisses me off more than claiming you're immune to retribution simply because your motive for engaging in acts of war was cold, hard cash. His claims to the contrary, he was a belligerent nation and would have been treated as one had the game not ended where it did.

*lol* As you may recall, your forces were overstretched, and you had a little to much on your hands to be assaulting anyone, much less the somewhat distant Krell.

And the Krell were no more immune to retribution than anyone else. Your decisions were what protected him, nothing more and nothing less.

As you may recall, 5th Fleet was way the fuck out of the combat zone when the war started. If things went the way you wanted, they would have come back to a devastated Nashtar with a full battle fleet and a pissed off commander.

[Thirdfain]

As you may recall, 5th Fleet was way the fuck out of the combat zone when the war started. If things went the way you wanted, they would have come back to a devastated Nashtar with a full battle fleet and a pissed off commander.

A single battle-fleet was not the currency spent in that final conflict. Wasted on the Krell defences, which included at least 2 Titans, it would have been rendered even more moot...

Meine gott, why is this even being discussed?

My 2 cents on the matter:

The issue in more recent STGODs is player participation. We've little new blood, and that equals death for the game. I think that stringent rules keep newbies from joining in the first place. Look at Hotfoot's STGOD: great idea, well executed, very small population. Kept the game from expanding enough, you know?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Another problem with his was that it was so structured that it depended too much on GM input. The problem was not that we didnt want to play, it was that he dropped off the internet and left us in the lurch.

[Hotfoot]

It was more than that. I had extended invitations to numerous players over on SDN and had met with positive response, but at the same time I was getting started here, STGOD 2k5 started up there, crippling the launch and interest in the game I was working on here.

Additionally, I faced a huge amount of resistance behind the scenes, so much so that I really just got tired of putting up with it all. The entire idea of the more structured system was to relieve pressure on the GM, but since very few people really wanted to accept the structure, it led to more and more GM intervention.

Add to that the fact that the player population was so small that there was really no real room for a second GM or sub-GMs, well, it was pretty well doomed from the start.

I stand by the fact that the only reason STGOD4 lasted as long as it did wasn't specifically because it had new blood - but rather that it had people who had no damn clue what they were doing and stirred the pot enough for others to get off their asses. Look at just about any discussion thread. If I were to start a "Star Wars pwns Star Trek" thread, it wouldn't get much traffic. Most everyone agrees, and by itself, it would die a slow, agonizing death by page one. Throw in a troll who goes "OMG NO WAI!" and suddenly it balloons up to five, eight, maybe even twelve pages as everyone dog-piles on the moron. The same is true of SDN STGODs. If nobody is a moron, they die out because there is no real conflict. The FSTGOD is a perfect example of that. Straha was an idiot by declaring to be the Golden Horde-analog, and before the game even started, everyone lined up alliances and got ready for the inevitable war and aftermath. He drops out, and you were left with nothing, because nobody else was stupid enough to pull such a brain-dead manuever.

That's one of the reasons why in my STGOD, I tried to have the initial conflict in the pre-game (which was supposed to be more story-oriented, I suppose another failing of my design), so that by the time the game itself started, the lines would have already been drawn, sides would have been taken, and people's ambitions would be clear. It would have also, ideally, done away with the standardized sizes of nations starting out, because it all would have been left to chance in the pregame, depending on how much territory you took.

[Rogue 9]

As you may recall, 5th Fleet was way the fuck out of the combat zone when the war started. If things went the way you wanted, they would have come back to a devastated Nashtar with a full battle fleet and a pissed off commander.

A single battle-fleet was not the currency spent in that final conflict. Wasted on the Krell defences, which included at least 2 Titans, it would have been rendered even more moot...

Meine gott, why is this even being discussed?

Because I'm bored. And how about three battle fleets? I also had the Protectorates 5th and a sizable task force from Alyrium's nation. And if Machine forces dared to come to the Krell's rescue, I doubt Monacora would have taken it very well.

I never planned on winning. From the point where the Krytos quit on us and my core systems wound up on the receiving end of the bangbus, all I wanted to do was stand the line and die fighting, as the saying goes. Surrender to three enemies who have no regard for life? Three words: Fuck that shit.

My 2 cents on the matter:

The issue in more recent STGODs is player participation. We've little new blood, and that equals death for the game. I think that stringent rules keep newbies from joining in the first place. Look at Hotfoot's STGOD: great idea, well executed, very small population. Kept the game from expanding enough, you know?

So the game depends on having people who don't know what they're doing to prey on. Some game, that.

[Thirdfain]

Wait- the entire idea of the heavily structured system *increases* GM intervention. It requires even more focus... Keep in mind that STGOD4, for all it's prrblems, had every single one cleared up rapidly by GM intervention, often in no more than a single post.

I'd also point out that declaring yourself the Golden Horde is far from suicide. Worked carefully, it can yield stunning success. Taking an aggressive stance can be very effective, and it's far from brain-dead assuming you clear the ground first.

However, your system has a great basic idea, it just needs a stronger GM grouping- perhaps 2 or 3. I'd be all for re-trying Hotfoot's STGOD idea, but with perhaps less stringent rules. Keep in mind that there will ALWAYS be bitching and debate in STGODing; that's what mods are for.

[Thirdfain]

[quote="Rogue 9"]
Because I'm bored. And how about three battle fleets? I also had the Protectorates 5th and a sizable task force from Alyrium's nation. And if Machine forces dared to come to the Krell's rescue, I doubt Monacora would have taken it very well.

I never planned on winning. From the point where the Krytos quit on us and my core systems wound up on the receiving end of the bangbus, all I wanted to do was stand the line and die fighting, as the saying goes. Surrender to three enemies who have no regard for life? Three words: Fuck that shit. [quote]

Come on, now! You're forgetting the fact that your fleets were spread out and disorganized, your home systems were being smashed, and the Unification had a significant reserve force to match any counter-attack (besides the one on Tycho, we just let that one slide through. Not worth the strategic resources to stop, you know?)

Your only hope was the Veithan Accord, which almost certainly would have nailed Eketrina. How it panned out after that, however, is up to debate- Even without Magi quitting, by that point your alliance had been pretty smacked down; with Alyrium reduced to a shadow, the White Suns on the run, and Consequences and yourself heavily engaged by superior forces. It might very well have been possible for the Unification to neuter the Alliance and then turn about and fight the Accord.

[Rogue 9]

I know all of that. I was quite prepared to have my entire nation wiped out before the expeditionary forces ever got back to Known Space. At which point I would blast my merry way through as much shit as possible until my last frigate was a smoking wreck. Starting with the Krell homeworld, because Bugsby had particularly annoyed me. Though Stormy was also a good possibility, given that he had the larger part of his fleet in my space. (And had that battle taken place, I still contend it could have gone either way, and been a Pyrrhic victory to whoever took it. His force wasn't that vastly superior, and he had his back to a core planet's defenses.)

[Hotfoot]

Wait- the entire idea of the heavily structured system *increases* GM intervention. It requires even more focus... Keep in mind that STGOD4, for all it's prrblems, had every single one cleared up rapidly by GM intervention, often in no more than a single post.

Nonsense. In a freeform system, any debates or disputes absolutely need mod decision. In STGOD4, mod decisions were needed at almost every hour of the day, especially once the secret action declarations started flying. With more rules, the more the rules make the decisions and the less you'll need direct mod intervention.

And I could point to the absolute huge messes and debates that popped up, even AFTER mod decisions in STGOD4.

I'd also point out that declaring yourself the Golden Horde is far from suicide. Worked carefully, it can yield stunning success. Taking an aggressive stance can be very effective, and it's far from brain-dead assuming you clear the ground first.

You know what, a sufficient amount of Kevlar can protect you against a nuke blast too. Don't blow smoke up my butt, you know as well as I do that it was a stupid move and ended the game before it even started. Stick to the point.

However, your system has a great basic idea, it just needs a stronger GM grouping- perhaps 2 or 3. I'd be all for re-trying Hotfoot's STGOD idea, but with perhaps less stringent rules. Keep in mind that there will ALWAYS be bitching and debate in STGODing; that's what mods are for.

You'd be all for it, but I won't. I'd be willing to work on rules and such, but frankly, I'm not likely going to play another STGOD ever. GalCiv, Homeworld, Nexux, and Space Empires let me scratch that itch more than well enough.

The game I ran was already much lighter on rules than I intended. Anything less would reduce it back to STGOD4 levels, and at that point it ceases to be my idea. So either you liked my idea or you didn't, don't go in this roundabout fashion to completely dismantle what I tried to create.

Again, it comes back, ultimately, to having noobs to smash. That's the only reason STGOD4 lasted as long as it did. After that point, all the newbs ran away or were banned from play. I'm not interested in playing another game of whack-a-noob.

[Thirdfain]

I know all of that. I was quite prepared to have my entire nation wiped out before the expeditionary forces ever got back to Known Space. At which point I would blast my merry way through as much shit as possible until my last frigate was a smoking wreck. Starting with the Krell homeworld, because Bugsby had particularly annoyed me. Though Stormy was also a good possibility, given that he had the larger part of his fleet in my space. (And had that battle taken place, I still contend it could have gone either way, and been a Pyrrhic victory to whoever took it. His force wasn't that vastly superior, and he had his back to a core planet's defenses.)

He was being reinforced by the Krytos, Monacorans, and myself. Additionally, by the time you'd gotten back to Known Space, I'd have finished off the White Suns and you'd have most of the Black Ships standing between you and home. I doubt you'd have won, against the numbers and experience they represented.

Nonsense. In a freeform system, any debates or disputes absolutely need mod decision. In STGOD4, mod decisions were needed at almost every hour of the day, especially once the secret action declarations started flying. With more rules, the more the rules make the decisions and the less you'll need direct mod intervention.

Which gets us to the issue of enforcement. I'd also point out that arguing of the scale which erupted was voluntary. A lot of what went on could have been drastically shortened if folks had just made a point and then said "Whatever, here's my point, I leave it to the mods to decide after this." I did that when Sharkbait did his whole lameness on Ezekiel, and it was solved in a single page.

You know what, a sufficient amount of Kevlar can protect you against a nuke blast too. Don't blow smoke up my butt, you know as well as I do that it was a stupid move and ended the game before it even started. Stick to the point.

It was stupid because it was poorly executed. So is ANY power play in STGODing.

The game I ran was already much lighter on rules than I intended. Anything less would reduce it back to STGOD4 levels, and at that point it ceases to be my idea. So either you liked my idea or you didn't, don't go in this roundabout fashion to completely dismantle what I tried to create.

Cool your jets. I wasn't around for much of your game, I'm speaking from your explanations of the game's rules, not whatever happened in practice. I'm not trying to dismantle anything. I'm saying that your idea, especially in regards to the opening segment concept and the idea of a unified storyline, is a good one. Don't get all in a fuss.

Again, it comes back, ultimately, to having noobs to smash. That's the only reason STGOD4 lasted as long as it did. After that point, all the newbs ran away or were banned from play. I'm not interested in playing another game of whack-a-noob.

You neglect to mention that there have been strongly successful STGODs which involved almost no newbs. To whit, STGOD2, which was fun for all involved and spawned a significant ammount of betrayal, politicking, and war. Without all the bitching. Without a complex set of rules. [/quote]

[Hotfoot]

Which gets us to the issue of enforcement. I'd also point out that arguing of the scale which erupted was voluntary. A lot of what went on could have been drastically shortened if folks had just made a point and then said "Whatever, here's my point, I leave it to the mods to decide after this." I did that when Sharkbait did his whole lameness on Ezekiel, and it was solved in a single page.

And we had such consistant moderation in STGOD4. Sure, Pablo and Marcao were fine for the most part, when they were on, but there were other mods with less sense.

It was stupid because it was poorly executed. So is ANY power play in STGODing.

Because he declared his intention, publically, to roll over everyone and play a fanatical race. WHICH WAS A STUPID MOVE. You can say it wasn't stupid because he didn't do it right, but all you're saying is that he made a stupid move by declaring himself as the big huge bad guy. You're saying something without really saying it.

Cool your jets. I wasn't around for much of your game, I'm speaking from your explanations of the game's rules, not whatever happened in practice. I'm not trying to dismantle anything. I'm saying that your idea, especially in regards to the opening segment concept and the idea of a unified storyline, is a good one. Don't get all in a fuss.

I get in a fuss because I have people telling me they love what I did, but don't want anymore structure, and instead want to go free wheeling into the void and not listen to anything. I've stated quite clearly why an overabundance of freedom is little more than an illusion. Whiz-bang cool technologies do not create a cool new civilization. There's so much more to it than that.

Additionally, the more that is agreed upon prior to the game starting, the less has to be argued out halfway through. We couldn't even agree on ranges and alert times of early warning networks or interdictor availability in STGOD4 until near the damn death throes of the game.

You neglect to mention that there have been strongly successful STGODs which involved almost no newbs. To whit, STGOD2, which was fun for all involved and spawned a significant ammount of betrayal, politicking, and war. Without all the bitching. Without a complex set of rules.

Oh yes, STGOD2. Such a wonderful STGOD, where the moment of a climatic battle, suddenly the major players vanished into the void, leaving Marcao to finish up for them. Don't pretend there wasn't any noob-bashing in that either.

If I want to read Alan doing a space battle, I'll just read that novel he wrote, rather than the last-minute jobs he did to cover the asses of people who ran away.

[Thirdfain]

Because he declared his intention, publically, to roll over everyone and play a fanatical race. WHICH WAS A STUPID MOVE. You can say it wasn't stupid because he didn't do it right, but all you're saying is that he made a stupid move by declaring himself as the big huge bad guy. You're saying something without really saying it.

Being openly evil isn't necessarily stupid. Doing it poorly is. If Straha had built a coalition, promised other powers a peice of the action, and done some diplomatic maneuvering, he could very well have succeeded.

e]I get in a fuss because I have people telling me they love what I did, but don't want anymore structure, and instead want to go free wheeling into the void and not listen to anything. I've stated quite clearly why an overabundance of freedom is little more than an illusion. Whiz-bang cool technologies do not create a cool new civilization. There's so much more to it than that.

The problem was stuff like "You can't bombard a planet, because people won't like it." Rather than leaving it up to the player community to decide how they'd react to the issue, you pre-ordained how you wanted players to act in-character. That's what I had a problem with. I don't give a fuck about whizz-bang cool technology, in case you hadn't noticed, I've always been a huge proponent of "Equal Results."

Synergy can be achieved.

Additionally, the more that is agreed upon prior to the game starting, the less has to be argued out halfway through. We couldn't even agree on ranges and alert times of early warning networks or interdictor availability in STGOD4 until near the damn death throes of the game.

Agreed. That's precisely the sort of thing an STGOD needs.

Oh yes, STGOD2. Such a wonderful STGOD, where the moment of a climatic battle, suddenly the major players vanished into the void, leaving Marcao to finish up for them. Don't pretend there wasn't any noob-bashing in that either.

Noob bashing? The only bashing which happened was a solid stand-up fight. Alyrium hardly counts as a noob.

If I want to read Alan doing a space battle, I'll just read that novel he wrote, rather than the last-minute jobs he did to cover the asses of people who ran away.

The fun part was getting there, not the battle. STGOD2 was a story of evolving power relationships; It's a damn shame Stormy pussied out at the end, but that's another issue entirely.

[Hotfoot]

Being openly evil isn't necessarily stupid. Doing it poorly is. If Straha had built a coalition, promised other powers a peice of the action, and done some diplomatic maneuvering, he could very well have succeeded.

You're changing the argument. I specifically stated that he did something stupid and reckless, like a noob, and got slapped for it. Like I said, stay on topic. Clearly you can be evil, but now you're putting words into my mouth that never lived there.

The problem was stuff like "You can't bombard a planet, because people won't like it." Rather than leaving it up to the player community to decide how they'd react to the issue, you pre-ordained how you wanted players to act in-character. That's what I had a problem with. I don't give a fuck about whizz-bang cool technology, in case you hadn't noticed, I've always been a huge proponent of "Equal Results."

Synergy can be achieved.

Well sorry for assuming people would act like people. Sorry T, but not everyone is as blase about genocide as you seem to think they are. I did a fair amount of realism injections to try and get people to think along the lines of doing things that made sense, rather than doing stupid shit forever. Note that you could bombard planets, but I simply pointed out the consequences of your actions. If you don't like the consequences, don't do it.

Agreed. That's precisely the sort of thing an STGOD needs.

I disagree. I feel it cheapens the experience to have the rules change halfway through in the favor of the person who argues the best while everyone else was operating under another concept entirely. You love it because it works well for you, but it's frankly a steaming load. Rules should not be sprung on people mid-game. It's lame, cheap, and the only reason you could possibly be arguing for it is if you've always been on the beneficial end of it.

Noob bashing? The only bashing which happened was a solid stand-up fight. Alyrium hardly counts as a noob.

Alyrium is an eternal STGOD noob and you damn well know it. He means well, but I'm not in a mood to dance. He was a tasty sandwich in STGOD1, and he was a tasty sandwich in STGOD4. STGOD2 was no different. You can't pretend that he didn't initiate numerous conflicts with his xenomorphs or other little adventures. Then of course, there was Beowulf, with his masturbatory matter nukes.

The fun part was getting there, not the battle. STGOD2 was a story of evolving power relationships; It's a damn shame Stormy pussied out at the end, but that's another issue entirely.

STGOD2 still used noob-bashing to instigate most of the major conflicts, and I defy you to prove otherwise.

And frankly, if an STGOD can't survive the first major battles with civilizations in the balance, it's doomed anyway.

[Thirdfain]

You're changing the argument. I specifically stated that he did something stupid and reckless, like a noob, and got slapped for it. Like I said, stay on topic. Clearly you can be evil, but now you're putting words into my mouth that never lived there.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. I think Straha went about it poorly, and stupidly. His execution was dumb.

Well sorry for assuming people would act like people. Sorry T, but not everyone is as blase about genocide as you seem to think they are. I did a fair amount of realism injections to try and get people to think along the lines of doing things that made sense, rather than doing stupid shit forever. Note that you could bombard planets, but I simply pointed out the consequences of your actions. If you don't like the consequences, don't do it.

You are deciding the moral code of the players beforehand. Why?

I disagree. I feel it cheapens the experience to have the rules change halfway through in the favor of the person who argues the best while everyone else was operating under another concept entirely. You love it because it works well for you, but it's frankly a steaming load. Rules should not be sprung on people mid-game. It's lame, cheap, and the only reason you could possibly be arguing for it is if you've always been on the beneficial end of it.

I JUST agreed with you. I JUST said "Agreed. That's precisely the sort of thing an STGOD needs." IN REFERENCE you your statement, " the more that is agreed upon prior to the game starting, the less has to be argued out halfway through."

Jesus!

Alyrium is an eternal STGOD noob and you damn well know it. He means well, but I'm not in a mood to dance. He was a tasty sandwich in STGOD1, and he was a tasty sandwich in STGOD4. STGOD2 was no different. You can't pretend that he didn't initiate numerous conflicts with his xenomorphs or other little adventures. Then of course, there was Beowulf, with his masturbatory matter nukes.

His skills be damned, people LOSE in STGODs. It's unavoidable. Alyrium instigated NO conflicts with his xenomorphs, he was attacked by a bunch of imperialists without a cassus belli, and I'll point out, he actually won that engagement in the long run thanks to foreign assistance.

STGOD2 still used noob-bashing to instigate most of the major conflicts, and I defy you to prove otherwise.

We may not see eye to eye on some things, but surely you aren't going to paint my counter-attack against Stormbringer as "noob bashing", or Stormy and Beowulf's own invasion of my space later as "Noob bashing!" The only thing you might see as such was the early-game attack on Alyrium, which FAILED.

And frankly, if an STGOD can't survive the first major battles with civilizations in the balance, it's doomed anyway.

What's the point of fighting a battle if everything is going to be in the balance anyways? You fight to change the balance in your favour.

[Hotfoot]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying. I think Straha went about it poorly, and stupidly. His execution was dumb.

It's clear you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll say it in simple terms - no STGOD on SDN that I have seen has initiated a major game event without someone doing something moronic to act as a catalyst.

You are deciding the moral code of the players beforehand. Why?

You can define your own moral code, fine, but you players don't get to define the moral code of the universe. This is another example of you not seeing the forest for the trees.

I JUST agreed with you. I JUST said "Agreed. That's precisely the sort of thing an STGOD needs." IN REFERENCE you your statement, " the more that is agreed upon prior to the game starting, the less has to be argued out halfway through."

Jesus!

Then state it after the sentence or be a little more clear. What I read was that you, again, couldn't understand the point I was making and agreed to the sentence "We couldn't even agree on ranges and alert times of early warning networks or interdictor availability in STGOD4 until near the damn death throes of the game." Given your previous misunderstandings, you can see how I came to this conclusion.

His skills be damned, people LOSE in STGODs. It's unavoidable. Alyrium instigated NO conflicts with his xenomorphs, he was attacked by a bunch of imperialists without a cassus belli, and I'll point out, he actually won that engagement in the long run thanks to foreign assistance.

Again, you're missing the point. STGOD2 was full of self-masturbatory nonsense (especially in the trade show) that resulted in a fair amount of moaning and complaining, and you can't tell me that Beowulf's little water-bomb wasn't something you jumped on in an instant.

We may not see eye to eye on some things, but surely you aren't going to paint my counter-attack against Stormbringer as "noob bashing", or Stormy and Beowulf's own invasion of my space later as "Noob bashing!" The only thing you might see as such was the early-game attack on Alyrium, which FAILED.

Again, you're not listening. In order to get to the point where you had these grand battles of hoo-hah valley, you had to do a lot of curbstomping of people who didn't matter much.

What's the point of fighting a battle if everything is going to be in the balance anyways? You fight to change the balance in your favour.

What are you even trying to say? If a game can't survive a high-stakes battle, what's the point of playing when every time someone has an upper hand, all the opposition refuses to play anymore?

[Thirdfain]

It's clear you don't understand what I'm saying, so I'll say it in simple terms - no STGOD on SDN that I have seen has initiated a major game event without someone doing something moronic to act as a catalyst.

PLease, then, point out for me the moronic "catalyst" that Alyrium in STGOD2 commited to bring down the imperialsts on him? I'm sure a couple minutes of research won't be a problem.

You can define your own moral code, fine, but you players don't get to define the moral code of the universe. This is another example of you not seeing the forest for the trees.

No, it's you making up arbitrary rules to suit your playstyle. WHY would people care? I'm not saying they wouldn't but it needs to be subjective. Would humans care if a bunch of weird aliens got bombed? Would aliens care if humans got bombed? Americans didn't riot in the street when Dresden was turned into smouldering rubble. A planet's obviously bigger, but so's the game universe.

-edit-

My point is, rather than setting down some iron ruling, you should leave it to the players to work out in the instant. Some planetary bombardments would be seen as horrible crimes; others might not be.

Then state it after the sentence or be a little more clear. What I read was that you, again, couldn't understand the point I was making and agreed to the sentence "We couldn't even agree on ranges and alert times of early warning networks or interdictor availability in STGOD4 until near the damn death throes of the game." Given your previous misunderstandings, you can see how I came to this conclusion.

I said "Agreed." Not, "I disagree." Not that hard to work out.

Again, you're missing the point. STGOD2 was full of self-masturbatory nonsense (especially in the trade show) that resulted in a fair amount of moaning and complaining, and you can't tell me that Beowulf's little water-bomb wasn't something you jumped on in an instant.

It was lame and stupid, and was smacked down instantly by the modstick. No problem.

What trade-show, btw? There wasn't one in STGOD2. There also was almost no moaning or complaining.

Again, you're not listening. In order to get to the point where you had these grand battles of hoo-hah valley, you had to do a lot of curbstomping of people who didn't matter much.

The only nations I invaded were Alyrium's and Stormbringer's. Both major players in the game, one of whom was an alliance head.

What are you even trying to say? If a game can't survive a high-stakes battle, what's the point of playing when every time someone has an upper hand, all the opposition refuses to play anymore?

People need to be willing to fight it out. That's an issue divorced from the one of game mechanics. The cure for that is balls.

[Hotfoot]

PLease, then, point out for me the moronic "catalyst" that Alyrium in STGOD2 commited to bring down the imperialsts on him? I'm sure a couple minutes of research won't be a problem.

You don't think the Xenomorph incident wasn't a catalyst? Please, it provided people an excuse to go after him, both IC and OOC.

No, it's you making up arbitrary rules to suit your playstyle. WHY would people care? I'm not saying they wouldn't but it needs to be subjective. Would humans care if a bunch of weird aliens got bombed? Would aliens care if humans got bombed? Americans didn't riot in the street when Dresden was turned into smouldering rubble. A planet's obviously bigger, but so's the game universe.

Your logic is flawed as it tends to be every time you fall back on World War 2 to explain how STGODs work. If you want to play a WW2 STGOD, then make your own WW2 STGOD and be done with it. Glassing a planet is akin to nuking a city in any case, and if you'll note, things changed rather dramatically after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

My point is, rather than setting down some iron ruling, you should leave it to the players to work out in the instant. Some planetary bombardments would be seen as horrible crimes; others might not be.

No shit, Sherlock. People might not have cared as much if Tomari worlds burned, but you'd be hard-pressed to argue that nobody would care enough to matter. This again comes back down to players autoing NPC reactions, something which is all too common and commonly stupid when it's done. Tell me T, how many of the worlds you conquered in an STGOD revolted on their own without another player attempting to instigate a rebellion?

I said "Agreed." Not, "I disagree." Not that hard to work out.

Neither is saying people doing stupid things is what instigates major conflicts in SDN STGODs, yet somehow you missed it.

It was lame and stupid, and was smacked down instantly by the modstick. No problem.

What trade-show, btw? There wasn't one in STGOD2. There also was almost no moaning or complaining.

I'm thinking about the trade show where people showed off shit like a thread that could hold a thousand tons or some BS like that. It was either STGOD1 or STGOD2, and I was pretty sure it was STGOD2.

The only nations I invaded were Alyrium's and Stormbringer's. Both major players in the game, one of whom was an alliance head.

Alyrium was not a major player. He posted a lot, sure, but he was not a mover, nor a shaker. Stormbringer and Beowulf, both, have periods of interesting moves, surrounded by illusions of competancy. They lack the brains and the balls to play an STGOD through to the end.

People need to be willing to fight it out. That's an issue divorced from the one of game mechanics. The cure for that is balls.

And yet, game mechanics isn't really what we're going after in this debate, it's merely a small subset. The true course of the subject is how the players approach the games.

[frigidmagi]

I firmly suggest we drop the matter of debating STGOD 4, by the way however the trade show was in STGOD 4.

Gentlemen it seems to me that we all want to try Hotfoot's system one more time but what we require is more players. Is this the case?

[Hotfoot]

I firmly suggest we drop the matter of debating STGOD 4, by the way however the trade show was in STGOD 4.

I'm not talking about the trade show I did in STGOD4, that was a Charlie Foxtrot for a whole different set of reasons. There was another trade show I used as motivation from an earlier STGOD.

Gentlemen it seems to me that we all want to try Hotfoot's system one more time but what we require is more players. Is this the case?

Maybe for the rest of you, but I'm done playing them. I'll talk about them, of course, but hey.

[SirNitram]

I think the trade-show was STGOD4. I know because the Etern showed up in it and it was basically all wanking of the Libertarian insanity 'Your home as a military grade fortress!' and suchlike.

I'm ready to try again, and I still have the plan of the Enclave showing up to retake Terra and/or all human populations in the area. Nothing like an encroaching power to jolt people out of WW2 blase'.

[frigidmagi]

I second Nitram's idea, it sounded like fun and I'm itching to see if we can adopt my suggestions for Terra.