Mad Renaissance STGOD

[frigidmagi]

Alot better thank you.

[Lys]

I am not sure that tactical battle resolution is a good idea. While I very much like matching wits against an opponent in the field of battle, a play by post game is already inherently slow paced. The back and forth of resolving individual battles is bound to make it positively glacial. This is a grand strategy game, where we control the fates of entire States, hopefully across a period spanning many years or even decades. At this level, tactical matters are simply too granular. I believe it best that battle resolution be a simple matter. Each player determines the composition of their armies, their goals, and basic tactical doctrine. If the goals of different armies causes them to meet, then the engagement is resolved accordingly and in one go.

The Total War games are fun and all, but taking after Europa Universalis is, I think, better suited for this medium.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Well, I guess I will go ahead and post the Republic of Florence and the Serene Republic of Venice. Nation info and Order of Battle thread will be up once I get the fortress section done.

I have also modified the base rules, increasing production capacity, and changing the modifiers for Politics. It also seems that the modifications for art and technology got deleted by accident. This has been fixed.

The format this ought take is:

[hr]

Republic of Florence, Serene Republic of Venice
Leaders and Other Persons of Note
Lorenzo de Medici, Signore of Florence, Praetorian Governor of Venice
[tab=30]Guiliano de Medici: Roman senator, Brother to Lorenzo de Medici
[tab=30]Piero de Medici: First Born Son of Lorenzo de Medici
[tab=30]Giovanni de' Medici: Second Born Son of Lorenzo de Medici
[tab=30]Francesco de' Pazzi: Head of the Pazzi family, and rival of Lorenzo
[tab=30]Jacopo de' Pazzi: Son of Fracesco de' Pazzi
[tab=30]Leonardo da Vinci: Homosexual Artist, Sculptor, and Mad Genius
[tab=30]Nicollo Machiavelli: You should all know who this is. Functionally adopted by [tab=30]Lorenzo, and serves as one of his advisers at 18 years of age.
[tab=30]Various shady individuals
Andrea Vendramin, Roman Senator, Doge of Venice
[tab=30]Regina Gradenigo: Wife of Andrea Vendramin
[tab=30]Giovanni Mocenigo: Rival to Andrea Vendramin

Size:1 (Firenze and Veneto)
Resources:5
Connectivity:10
Economy:10

Technology:10
Art:10
Finance:6
Politics:7

Feudal Military:150,000

Heavy Cavalry (27000 Florins)x2=52000 Florins
Lance and Shield
Arabian Horses
Gothic Plate

Light Horse Archers (17000 Florins)x2=34000 Florins
Recurved Bows
Trained by Fightmaster

Medium Cavalry (18000 Florins)x2=36000 Florins
Trained By Fightmaster
Lance and Shield

Mortar (28000 Florins)x1=28000 Florins
Clockwork Gun Carriages
Exploding Shells

Professional Army: 500,000
Carrack (25,000 Florins) x3=75000

Galleon (30000)x1=30000

Ornithopter (40000 Florins) x1=40000

Heavy Polearm (28000)x3=84000
Tempered Steel Armor
Trained by Fight Master

Medium Shield (22000)x3=66000
Steel Armor
Trained By Fight Master

Heavy Pike (28000)x3=84000
Tempered Steel Armor
Trained by Fight Master

Light Longbow (13000)x3=39000
Recurved Bows

Light Arbalest(16000)x3=48000
Crank Reloading
Pavises

Scorpion (8000)x2=16000

Lesser Culverin 32000x2=640000
Clockwork Gun Carriage
Exploding Shells

City Guard: 50,000 per city
Heavy Polearm 20000
Medium Longbow 15000
Medium Arbalest 15000


Fortifications: 300,000
Florins Per Turn(base): 63,500
Production Capacity: 87,500

History:

[Comrade Tortoise]

The Total War games are fun and all, but taking after Europa Universalis is, I think, better suited for this medium.

We have been doing tactical scale combat in games like this for Years. We know what we are doing. Also, the pace of narration can be on whatever scale and in whatever level of detail the players want (I have designed the system to be modular, and units can be combined), and half the fun is writing combat for many of us. Either way, if you want low detail combat, it can be dealt with via the GM playing chess with himself. In the past, resolution has been largely arbitrary on the part of the GM. The only difference is that now, it is not.

[Lys]

It's not that I don't like combat with high detail, or prefer it with low detail. It is, indeed, quite fun to play out battles. "The enemy enemy heavy horse suddenly charge at your flank, oh no! Counter charge them! Rid, Knights of Santiago, ride!" It's all good fun. I'm just concerned that it will negatively affect the pace of the game. By which I mean the amount of in game time that passes for real life time. I'd rather we spend one or two weeks resolving a campaign rather than one or two weeks resolving a battle.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Well, the issue there is that every player posts at different rates anyway. The way to deal with it is have combat done in a sort of "Unreal Time" where combat progresses, and other things move along accordingly. No matter what, the pace of the game is dependent on how frequently people post. That there is combat does not change that. If you want to resolve your campaign in no time flat, you can do that if your opponent is willing. For all I care, you can send me a PM describing what you do in bullet points, I resolve, you write up the narration. Done.

The other problem is that for EU2 style combat... I cannot write a decent engine for it. I just cant. I do not have the ability to write a massive algorithm for the apples to oranges comparisons between different types of troops with every possible permutation.

[Lys]

I would never ask you to make something so complex as a video game combat resolution engine. People get paid money to develop such things, and they use dedicated computer programs to run them. This is a pastime, not a job. I was thinking something more like: add up offensive defensive and offensive values for both sides, include terrain and tactical modifiers, roll for initiative, roll for damage, assign casualties, roll for morale, broken units retreat, repeat until battle end conditions are met. With a few tweaks, that outline could even be made to resolve battles in single rolls. I'm sure your current engine is also suitable for operational level battle resolution with few modifications.

Still, if you think the majority of the players think that a lot of the appeal would be lost from not being able to engage in context of tactical prowess, then it is definitely desirable to keep tactical combat resolution. I have no wish to drive people away just because I prefer things one way. I do like to argue in favour of my particular predilections, but I try to be flexible about it.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Well, if someone really wants to do it that way or similar to it, they certainly can. There is also the expediency of lumping soldiers into wings and dealing with it using units of larger scale. But, that needs to be up to the players involved in combat, and I know a good chunk of us like dealing with tactical scale combat.

[Cavalier]

It seems to me that with the ways the rules are presently configures, there is an objectively best way to build a power, which is to max out Economy and Connectivity at the expense of Size and Resources. A state with maxed out Size and Resources will have exactly as many florins to spend on an army, but most of it in the Feudal pool, and will suffer heavily in bonuses with all the Renaissance stats. Mixed states with a more balanced build are inferior in both the size of the military they can build and in the stats and so should simply not be taken at all, from a mechanical standpoint.

I would strongly advise that some steps be taken to balance out the utility of taking a fabulously wealthy city-state, perhaps by providing some kind of advantage for taking a larger nation, by making resources contribute more to various stats instead of just the likely to be unused production pool, by having a larger pool of units for feudal forces, or by having some kind of Manpower limit that would provide larger nations with more resilience during wartime. As it is, powers like Florence-Venice and Sicily are just flat out superior in every respect to any other possible build and that just does not seem tenable in the long run to me.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Alright. I will figure something out. Probably by increasing the size of the feudal pool and introducing feudal tax levies that can boost income for one season a year.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Feudal Military pool is increased, and a feudal tax levy has also been put in place.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Because significant modifications have been made in order to redress balance issues, I am reposting the nation building rules as modified.

Land Statistics: You have 26 points, each of these is on a 1-10 scale, though as you advance, they can increase higher than this limit.

Size:How large your territory spans, in increments of 2 provinces.
Resources:A measure of the natural resources, be it iron, wood, fish, wool etc.
Connectivity: How connected your territories are by roads, paths. Alsop how urbanized the state is..
Economy: How strong the barter and good to currency exchange economy is.

Connectivity and Economy can be increased by spending a number of Florins equal to (Current rating)x((1+1/2 economy)xconnectivity)x1000 .

Resources and Size increase only by conquest. For each new province you conquer, your resource score increases by (Conquered Nation's Base resource score/number of provinces+bonus to that province's score due to a particular resource in high supply)

Bonuses to Resources will be assigned to particular provinces based on geographic and historical criteria, and will be applied to a player's Resource score at game start. These bonuses however do NOT average in to the above equation. They are applied to Florins Per Season. Economy will get similar bonuses, and are applied the same way, and are added to the conquering player's economy score upon successful conquest of an affected province.


Derived statistics: The are statistics derived from Land Statistics

Military statistics derived this way are for starting military only.
Feudal Army (SA):(Resources+Size) x 60000 Florins
This is the portion of an army composed of men called to serve as part of the Feudal Burden. Any given regiment requires 10-connectivity (minimum of 1) weeks to be called into service. No upkeep is required when they are not active for less than a season, as they have already been paid as part of their recruitment and are in effect paying for the favors granted by their noble patron. Keeping them beyond a season of active service however requires that they be paid 5% of their recruitment cost for each additional season.

Professional Army (M): (Connectivity + Economy) x 50000 Florins
These soldiers are professionals. They may be citizen soldiers (Yeoman) or they may be locally recruited mercenaries (Condotta). Their upkeep cost is 5% of their total recruitment cost per season and they are available year round.

City Guard/Emergency Levies: (½ Connectivity + ½ Economy) x 7000 Florins
Standing garrisons are for walled cities only. You can assume you have this in point value for soldiers for each walled city, available immediately upon that city being besieged. It basically represents the local constabulary, and however many bows, guns, spears etc a walled city might have on hand to shove into the arms of the population in defense if the city is attacked without sufficient warning to call for additional soldiers. These soldiers are paid locally, and as a result, no upkeep is required.

Fortifications: Every geographic region is assumed to have at least 1 walled city (for example, Tuscany would have Florence as a walled city, while northern Italy would have Milan, SE England would have London etc). The number of walled cities within a geographic region increases by 1 per two points of connectivity. Stand alone military fortifications (read: castles/device forts/bastions) are purchased from a pool of points equal to ((Resources+Economy) x size) x 20000) with availability of specific components and the cost of those components based on Art and Technology respectively

Army Travel Speed: Armies may move between regions based upon that region's connectivity. It takes [14-connectivity] days to move from one geographic region to one adjascent. Minimum of 3. If the territory in question is controlled by another power, the average of the two scores is used.

Florins per Season From Internal Tax Revenue=((1+½ connectivity) X Economy) +((1+½ Resources) X Size) x 1000 Florins

Feudal Tax Levie=((1+½ Resources) X Size)x1000 Florins, useable 1 season per year.

Florins per Turn from Exports: High resource states do more exporting rather than importing of raw materials, while high economy states export finished goods. This produces a number of Florins per Season equal to Resources+Economy x1000

Production Capacity: This is the ability of your state to produce weapons, armor, Ornithopters for sale or transport to another state. It is calculated as ((1+½ Resources) X Size) x 25000 florins. You pay 1/2 of the total recruitment cost of any soldiers recruited in this way, while the player purchasing the weapons pays 75% normal recruitment costs (in effect, soldiers cost 1.25 x their normal cost). The terms of the economic exchange (how much you make from this) are between you and the other player. The industrial capacity sum is spent from your normal budget accordingly.

Renaissance Statistics: These are on a 1-10 scale, as above. You have 26 points to spend, and your investments will be modified by land statistics and may go over ten.

Technology A measure of the advancement in industrial technologies such as metallurgy. (If average of Economy and Conectivity is greater than 6 +1, if greater than 8, +2) Higher scores open up new military units, and increase the effectiveness of others. The average of artistry and technology also affects the ability of a state to Jury Rig solutions to certain problems on the fly (such as creating a countermeasure to a new siege engine). If such a counter-measure is conceived of by the player, a base chance of 50% exists that the solution can work or be built correctly. This is modified by the GM for difficulty, and by this average at a rage of 5% per averaged score.

Art: A measure of craftsmanship, both military and civilian.(If average of Economy and Conductivity is greater than 6 +1, if greater than 8, +2) Higher scores can open up new military units increase the effectiveness of others, and offer certain optional upgrades to existing units. Also assists in placating angry populations and securing your power base in the event of a difficult succession etc.

Finance: The degree to which financial innovation is advanced in the economy. (If the average of economy and resources is greater than six, finance is increased by 1, if greater than 8, +2). The primary purpose is determining how safe it is for lenders to lend money to the state, a higher score lowers interest rates on loans used to spend Florins over and above your quarterly budget.
(1=40%,2=35%. 3=30%, 4=25%, 5=20%, 6=15%, 7=10%, 8=5%, 9=4%, 10=3%). Loan payments (1/4th balance+ interest) are due at the next season unless an extension is granted, default on loan obligations lowers your finance score by 1. Increases can be made to finance only through making and taking out loans, and successfully collecting upon or paying them back. You must successfully collect or pay back 2 loans x Current finance score in order to increase said score by 1. Loans between states are possible, however this is done by guaranteeing a loan from a private bank. The lending state takes a loan at their interest rate and gives it to the borrowing state at whatever interest rate they wish. However, if the borrowing state defaults (damaging their finance score), the lending state is left holding the bag. Unless otherwise specified, loans are taken from the Medici Bank, which will begin the game with 2 million florins in assets, which grows by a stable 5% annually. Failure to pay back loans or make other arrangements (such as giving a province to Florence of the loan's value or somesuch) may lead to the bankruptcy of the bank.


Politics: The machiavellianity (thank you Havoc for this word) displayed in your political system. (If the average of size, connectivity and economy is greater than six, increase this stat by 1, if greater than 8 +2) A low score does not stop a player from being clever, but has other in-game effects, and cleverness will provide a modifier to any plot . High scores increase the chance of any external plot working, and affects the chances of detecting and foiling a plot committed inside your territory by another state. (roll of 3d6 +0 on a politics score of 5, -1 for each point below, +1 for each point above. Opposed rolls). It also effects how well conquered territories are integrated, and how the population will respond to upsets. In the event that you conquer a territory, every season for the the next year, there is a base chance of 50% that the territory in question will rebel (any militia within the territory defect to rebels, garrisons will select their own leaders and refuse to follow orders) leaving only standing army and mercenaries obeying your commands, and forcing you to re-take the territory. This chance decreases by 5% per point in the average of Politics and Art. In the event of a natural disaster, politics will also help in maintaining the order and productivity of the state within the territory in question. A difficulty will be set by the GM if a natural disaster strikes, and a roll of 3d6 will be forced, with Politics, and Art scores providing a bonus equal to average between their scores. Failure will mean the loss of all Florins produced in that territory that season (proportionate to the number of territories you control).

Note on Attrition: Battlefield attrition can force capitulation of smaller states. Huge battlefield upsets with a casualty threshold based on the number of men lost, and the size of the nation in question, can cause political turmoil. Politics must then be used to deal with this using checks identical to those for natural disasters. On three cumulative failures of these checks (once failures-successes=3), a leader who refuses to come to terms will be ousted in favor of one who WILL. These however reset after a two in game year period. Mercenaries do not count against this threshold.

Threshold:(Sizex10000 casualties)

Renaissance statistics are increased in several ways. Politics cannot be raised using monetary investment, but only by successfully carrying out or countering a plots (1 per current score. So, to go from 5 to 6 requires 5 successfully machinations of sufficient magnitude that GM permits it to count. The same goes for avoiding negative fallout from disasters, and putting down rebellions without military force. FInance has already been described. Art and technology are increased the same way economy and connectivity are.

[Derek Thunder]

I will get around to a more in-depth post tomorrow detailing my state, but here is what I have so far:

High concept: Quasi-heretical Islamic state that considers piracy to be the highest order of worship.

Territory: 741, 742, 744-746, 493, 494.

[frigidmagi]

Huh, Derek, I know I don't have any veto powers here but I gotta go WTF. Not at the idea of being heretical Muslim pirates but at your placement.

You want to be a band of pirates based out of the Holy Land? One of the most fought over patches of ground in history? As for being heretics and pirates, I honestly think you're a bit close to the centers of power to survive. Fuck, Egypt is one of those centers of power.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Huh, Derek, I know I don't have any veto powers here but I gotta go WTF. Not at the idea of being heretical Muslim pirates but at your placement.

You want to be a band of pirates based out of the Holy Land? One of the most fought over patches of ground in history? As for being heretics and pirates, I honestly think you're a bit close to the centers of power to survive. Fuck, Egypt is one of those centers of power.

Well, I did tell him that there will probably be two crusades (one called by each pope) and a Jihad...

[Lys]

Wait, there's more than one Pope?

Here's a map of Europe in 1500. We are starting in 1478 so if this was historical scenario there'd be a few differences. However as far as North Africa is concerned it's correct for our start date. You can see how Derek Thunder's nation covers much of the Mamluk territory, but not all of it, plus Tripolitania and Cyrenacia besides. The Mamluks were faithful Muslims, and civilized, not pirates. However there were a lot of pirates dens in North Africa, and it was a common source of income in the area until the early 19th century. Basically the entire coast from the limits of the Maluk territory to Fez. Or in modern terms: Lybia, Tunis, and Algeria.

Should be noted that historically the Ottomans did heavily support North African pirates against Christian shipping starting in the 16th century. Not just that, they outright conquered those areas, essentially making the Barbary Pirates into an extension of Ottoman policy and warfare. So the idea of a major power supporting in large scale piracy is hardly far-fetched. The Turks were more than happy to do so. The part that puts Derek is trouble is that firstly his country seems to built around piracy, rather than using piracy as a means to an end. This seems more suitable for a minor power than a major one. Secondly that they are heretics, which is always dangerous proposition.

I should also note that in our world Tunis has been conquered by the Normans, and I was thinking of having Spain take the three Algerian coastal provinces in lieu of Aragon's historical Mediterranean holdings. Plus Portugal would have Tangiers, and the Kingdom of Fez wasn't as much into piracy. So the majority of the Western Mediterranean is under Christian control, which means a protracted campaign against Chrsitian shipping pretty much would have to be conducted entirely from the Eastern Mediterranean.

Or to summarize, I don't see any issue with major pirate activity originating from what was Mamluk Egypt. I do think it being from a bunch of looney Muslims that worship through piracy is a bit much. But hey Derek, if you're dead set on it, go for broke. I disapprove, but it's not my place to be forbidding anything.

[frigidmagi]

Hey, according to this map, I should have Rousillon! *shakes fist*

[Cavalier]

Nah, there's a little triangle north of the Pyrenees in Spanish hands on the map, if you look closely and know where the modern border is. Rousillon just isn't nearly as big as the province map for EU II makes it, which is certainly one failing of the engine.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Here you go, you pox-ridden whores in need of delousing. The complete rule set, in one convenient package. There have been some minor tweaks as per player feedback on the original docs, and a whole new document for you to go over with a fine toothed comb.

And to answer your question Lys, yes, there is more than one pope. There is the Spanish pope, and the Roman antipope. Or is it the Roman pope and the Spanish antipope? Silly schisms!

[Charon]

God dammit...

I can't quit you STGODs.... why can't I quit you...

Considering the Turks. Gimme a bit.

[Comrade Tortoise]

A note. Artillery can be purchased from the artillery budget, however, guns on towers are bolted in place. Guns in wall galleries can be stripped and put into field service.

[Dark Silver]

God dammit...

I can't quit you STGODs.... why can't I quit you...

Considering the Turks. Gimme a bit.

I don't know, you've seemed to have quit Transformers pretty handily.....

[Lys]

And to answer your question Lys, yes, there is more than one pope. There is the Spanish pope, and the Roman antipope. Or is it the Roman pope and the Spanish antipope? Silly schisms!

In Rome? For some reason when you said that the Romans had kicked the Pope out, I assumed that they were anti-papist. Kind of like the Anglican church but with better raison d'etre than Henry VIII's impotency. In light of this, I must thank God for the Infidel. Without them to kick around I'd be forced to declare war on Rome just on to unseat the false Papacy and restore legitimacy to Christendom. You have any idea how ruinous such a war would be? I don't even have the staging grounds to conduct it!

In other news, I found a place to put the Pope. It's a town called Peñíscola that historically harboured an anti-Pope, but now harbours a real Pope.

I wonder how long until DaVinci offers to solve the impending energy crisis by building an Pope/Anti-Pope reactor? He was a visionary, after all.

[Comrade Tortoise]

I wonder how long until DaVinci offers to solve the impending energy crisis by building an Pope/Anti-Pope reactor? He was a visionary, after all.

You have just become one of my favorite people.

In Rome? For some reason when you said that the Romans had kicked the Pope out, I assumed that they were anti-papist.

It is complicated. In short, when the Papacy moved to Avignon in 1309, the city of Rome was governed by a Papal Legate. After a while of neglect during the avignon captivity, the roman people held the Curia essentially hostage and demanded a roman be elected pope, they did so... then left, declared the old vote invalid and elected another frenchman. There has been a Pope and Roman Pope ever since.

[Lys]

Considering the Turks. Gimme a bit.

Yaaay!

You have just become one of my favorite people.

^-^

It is complicated. In short, when the Papacy moved to Avignon in 1309, the city of Rome was governed by a Papal Legate. After a while of neglect during the avignon captivity, the roman people held the Curia essentially hostage and demanded a roman be elected pope, they did so... then left, declared the old vote invalid and elected another frenchman. There has been a Pope and Roman Pope ever since.

That sounds exactly like the historical schism. That issue was resolved in 1418, what rationale is there for the resolution to fail in this scenario? If the Romans didn't kick the Pope out entirely, I don't see how the schism wouldn't have been resolved. Pretty much every power preferred a single pope, which is why the whole matter did not last and eventually they went back to the one. The extra Pope won't last without state support, and such will be withdrawn once a majority has settled on one, as was the case historically.