Good and Evil, a D&D discussion.

[frigidmagi]

Welcome to the 2nd and likely last alignment thread. Last time, I took a look at Chaos and Law and I think I proved the major problem with it. No one can agree on what Chaos and Law actually mean. What about Good and Evil? These two alignment axis I think are a bit stronger defined but... Some of it is rather... Arbitrary isn't it? I mean why is worse for the Chaotic Good Ranger or Rogue to poison said Dark Lord of the (totally not!) Sith, then it is to brutally beat, burn or stab him to death? Not that I'm saying that death by poison is painless and easy mind but... Why is one morally neutral and one a ticket to camp Evil (slight exaggeration there)?

So let's sit down and hash this out. What is Good and Evil in the context of a Dungeons and Dragon's game?

Spoiler: show

I suppose I should toss out my definition into the ring. An evil character is someone is not only primary self interested (it's all about ME!) but also utterly disregards the rights and feelings of other sapient creatures. Other people are for the most part things to be used to achieve a goal, not separate persons with their own distinct worth (Look Ma, I am so Kant). This doesn't mean that an Evil person cannot have friends or never know the touch of love. To use some fictional examples (because whenever I use historical ones I get into fights) Bellatrix from Harry Potter loved a certain snaked faced asshole and was willing to do anything for him (man that got creepy). Or Tarquin from Order of the Stick, who despite being an utterly evil magnificent bastard (so awesome) truly does love and care about Elan and refuses to harm his son despite Elan attacking him with a drawn sword. What it does mean is that Evil people outside of their little group view everyone else as a resource at best, or expendable tools at worse. Good individuals on the flip side see other sapients as persons with their own rights, thoughts and feelings that must be considered. A person is not a resource, or a means to an end, but an end in and of themselves. This doesn't mean they have to be nice about it or that they can't be assholes, but there are lines they can and must not cross. After all you don't have to like people to defend their rights, you have to be willing to risk yourself.

[B4UTRUST]

I'm honestly not sure how to answer this one. I'll try though, since I was asked. I've played both roles, though most know that I tend towards the evil side far more often than good.

Defining good and evil to me has always been difficult. The bad guy rarely ever sees himself as evil, and when you look at history a lot of times the shit the good guys did to win is very questionable. I'm reminded of a quote but can't remember exactly how it goes so I'll paraphrase a bit; 'The only difference between good and evil is which side of the line you stand on, and good is the one who does the dividing.' Not exact but the intention is there.

I've ran good guys who helped in the murder of their own group and stayed in alignment while doing it. I've ran bad guys who actively sought to remove the lives of untold billions just to further their own goals a little bit, but had reasons so compelling to do it that it made you stop and think that maybe he wasn't quite as evil as you thought.

I don't know how to clearly or properly define these two concepts, especially not for games. So much of what I've always looked at and believed when it comes to this idea is that the differences are so small between the two concepts that its hard to see. It mostly comes down not to the actions or goals but to the individual themselves, I suppose.

You have a man who actively steals from people, is a well known rogue who employs a band of fellow thieves, thugs and accomplices to help with his actions. He assaults people, robs them, and was in open opposition of the existing regime in government and in part sought to overthrow it. So he steals. He assaults. He kills. He is an outlaw to be sure for his crimes. He does this with a gang of like-minded and armed individuals to carry out his goals. Looking at that as a resume one would say at first glance he's not a good person and is probably a fairly sketchy individual. But hell, that was Robin Hood. He robbed from the rich to give to the poor and tried to end the tyranny of Prince John. By his actions one would say he wasn't good, but the motivations made what would be a bad man into a good one. John and quite a few others probably thought they were in the right and were the good guys and this damned Robin fellow was nothing more than an outlaw thug to be dealt with harshly for breaking the law. They sent people after him to bring him to justice for his crimes against the crown and its people.

*shrugs* To me then I guess it's the motivations of the individual that makes them good or evil, rather than just their actions or goals. A good man can do horrible things to make the world a better place. A bad man can do a lot of good that corrupts or damages a lot of people.

I think part of that there is to me the greatest and worst/best of evil. To take good, to take that good person who is really motivated and trying to better the world to do the right thing. To take that person and slowly corrupt them. To take them and make them sacrifice. Make them sacrifice those parts of themselves they swore they never would, to save that person's life. Wear down the moral lines and walls so that in the end there is really nothing that would distinguish them from the evil they fought. That is the greatest of evil, I think. That moment where your good guy looks in the mirror and can't recognize who looks back. When you break that bit inside of them and there is no return. Their motivation and intentions are still good, but in doing so, to live up to those ideals and to do the right thing they believe in they have to change themselves into that which they set out to stop.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

I know my ramblings probably made no real sense, it's late and I'm sleep deprived. I'll use that as my excuse for now..