This was prompted by a comment from another thread, and a thought I've had running around in my head for a while now.
For people with faith, if God were real, and you could prove it, if God intervened in our world to prove that he/she/it existed, how would your faith change?
In a world where every god from every religion were not only demonstratably real, but interacted with each other, how would faith change? I would propose that belief in such gods would not actually be a faith, since you're believing in something that anyone can see is real. It would still be a belief, but I can't see it as faith, since faith is a belief without needing anything to validate it. In the modern world, people can have events that validate their faith, but you can't demonstratably show that it was God or Gods in action. Meanwhile, in a world where Gods regularly intervene, you arguably could show that Divine Intervention came from a specific source, especially in worlds like most D&D settings.
Out of most of the D&D Dieties, the most "God"-like is probably Ao, who doesn't seem to get involved as much. However, most of them seem to be more like Feudal lords after a fashion. Pledge your life to a God, and they reward you with special attention, powers, or what have you. Real faith in D&D seems pretty sparse, and oddly enough I think that those who do not follow a specific God may have the most faith when it comes to D&D.
So, that said, what do you all think?
If God were demonstratably real
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frigidmagi
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#2
I think if every faith was showing signs of Divine intervention, either Monotheism would be impossible or Monotheist (jews, christians, muslims, sikhs, etc) would be very unpopular, as they would most likely be claiming other religions got their power from the devil or other source of evil.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
#5
Cute Narsil, but you've missed the point of the discussion. Moving on.
Tevar: I'm not sure about that. Priests may still exist as the favored of god, or the interpreters of his/her/its will. Whenever someone challenges them, there could well be direct divine intervention.
Frigid's also probably right in that purely monotheistic faiths would be somewhat less popular in some lights, but another question is given the similar roots of the jewish, christian, and muslim faiths, would there be just one god between them, would each have their own, or would there be several gods, one for each major subsection of belief? I suppose part of this would depend on WHY the gods are real. Are they real because people believe in/follow them, or are they real regardless if people believe or not.
If the former, then we would be inundated with gods. If the latter, there may only be one (in our world), or many, assuming there is some way to reconcile that. No matter how you cut it though, some people are going to be disillusioned, since faith is often very personal, and with a specific model that you can see, people around the world will have a crisis of faith as their particular faith is challenged. Extremists may not like it if their god tells them to chill the hell out, seeing him as a demon, for example.
In a world, however, where there isn't such a shock, gods intervening in mortal affairs is not just normal but almost expected, I think that faith takes on an entirely different light. Like I said above, I can't help but look at religion in most D&D games as more like swearing fealty to a feudal lord rather than a true mark of faith. If anything, clerics of known are the least faithful people in D&D, because they actually recieve gifts for faith...powers that they never would have normally achieved. Of course, this is countered by clerics with no real lord who still have powers, clerics who actually have faith in something greater than themselves, something that they can't really prove to anyone, whereas the "will of the gods" in D&D, while sometimes vague, is at least there and verifiable.
Tevar: I'm not sure about that. Priests may still exist as the favored of god, or the interpreters of his/her/its will. Whenever someone challenges them, there could well be direct divine intervention.
Frigid's also probably right in that purely monotheistic faiths would be somewhat less popular in some lights, but another question is given the similar roots of the jewish, christian, and muslim faiths, would there be just one god between them, would each have their own, or would there be several gods, one for each major subsection of belief? I suppose part of this would depend on WHY the gods are real. Are they real because people believe in/follow them, or are they real regardless if people believe or not.
If the former, then we would be inundated with gods. If the latter, there may only be one (in our world), or many, assuming there is some way to reconcile that. No matter how you cut it though, some people are going to be disillusioned, since faith is often very personal, and with a specific model that you can see, people around the world will have a crisis of faith as their particular faith is challenged. Extremists may not like it if their god tells them to chill the hell out, seeing him as a demon, for example.
In a world, however, where there isn't such a shock, gods intervening in mortal affairs is not just normal but almost expected, I think that faith takes on an entirely different light. Like I said above, I can't help but look at religion in most D&D games as more like swearing fealty to a feudal lord rather than a true mark of faith. If anything, clerics of known are the least faithful people in D&D, because they actually recieve gifts for faith...powers that they never would have normally achieved. Of course, this is countered by clerics with no real lord who still have powers, clerics who actually have faith in something greater than themselves, something that they can't really prove to anyone, whereas the "will of the gods" in D&D, while sometimes vague, is at least there and verifiable.
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frigidmagi
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#6
Another thing I think I should mention is that there would either be alot more religious warfare or less. You couldn't argue about the will of the Deity, because he's right there, he'll tell you. Odds are if minster, priest, monk or iman ignores him, he's gonna have a heart attack and then will have to explain it personally.
What does this mean? It means if God really wills Jihad/Crusade, then it's gonna be fought and it's gonna be messy.
What does this mean? It means if God really wills Jihad/Crusade, then it's gonna be fought and it's gonna be messy.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
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SirNitram
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#7
If 'Every God from every religion' includes the Lartes and Potes, IIRC, they do exist because you beleive in 'em. Which means somewhere, someone's going to try and rig a way to pump pure beleif into a carefully crafted Potes.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
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Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
I Am Rage. You Will Know My Fury.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
I Am Rage. You Will Know My Fury.
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Masterharper
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#8
Assuming that any given god is REAL, I don't see the split for Christianity, Judiaism and Islam. I mean, I'm no religious scholar, but one big issue between them is the Divinity of Christ. Is Jesus the son of god? I mean, if god could some down and just as easily say "That one the one in the braces, 'ee did it!" Then there could be some rather solid settling on the matter.
One question is: Are we talking pre-existing gods, or could some largely spread cult elevate something/someone to Godhood simply with pure belief (Tinkerbell fashion, if you will.)? And what about more mystic religions? Will Native Spirit Bears start hanging out on rocky outcroppings back in the forest by my house? Am I going to see some terrible stories in the news about islands rising from the pacific, near australia and sailors losing their minds? And what about the Force! Come on, you gotta have the Force.
On another note, this would change my religious philosophy IMMENSELY. I'm an existentialist at heart. I was an existentialist before I knew what existentialism was. Cold and uncaring as the universe that surrounds, and I reflect that. I have always maintained, that until god, or any god for that matter, comes down from the heavens, rises from the depths, or just walks through my door, and leaves me a note, or a letter, or talks to me SHOWING me that "Yes, there is a higher power." I'm going to continue to view every religion--every one of 'em--as an oversaturated cult. With varying levels of crazy. Dont' get me wrong, all crazy, just some people are more crazy.
One question is: Are we talking pre-existing gods, or could some largely spread cult elevate something/someone to Godhood simply with pure belief (Tinkerbell fashion, if you will.)? And what about more mystic religions? Will Native Spirit Bears start hanging out on rocky outcroppings back in the forest by my house? Am I going to see some terrible stories in the news about islands rising from the pacific, near australia and sailors losing their minds? And what about the Force! Come on, you gotta have the Force.
On another note, this would change my religious philosophy IMMENSELY. I'm an existentialist at heart. I was an existentialist before I knew what existentialism was. Cold and uncaring as the universe that surrounds, and I reflect that. I have always maintained, that until god, or any god for that matter, comes down from the heavens, rises from the depths, or just walks through my door, and leaves me a note, or a letter, or talks to me SHOWING me that "Yes, there is a higher power." I'm going to continue to view every religion--every one of 'em--as an oversaturated cult. With varying levels of crazy. Dont' get me wrong, all crazy, just some people are more crazy.