LibriumArcana.Games

I watched a short clip from O'Reilly's show today in which he had an inner city principal and two rap people (a rapper and a rap producer) debating hip hop music.

The principal said he felt it did, and Mr. O'Reilly sided with him. The rap people took the completly opposite side saying that rap actually encourages youths to start their own businesses and that they should be seen as role models because they are business people. I found it funny that they said while dressed in basketball jeresys in TV.

I found my self siding with Bill O'Reilly against the hip hop culture. It seems to me that their image alone; always dressing in stupid bling bling outfits and never using proper English is harming youth, by making them emulate this behaviour, which can hurt they chances to get a good job. If I were interviewing someone who showed up in a basketball jersey, I would dismiss him quickly. He he can't take the effort to look professional at the interview I am not going to take the effort to hire him. A style over substance fallacy perhaps, though one surely common among real employers.

However, I was unable to find any concreate evidence supporting my position, so I am open to the fact that I might be wrong. Perhaps it is just music. What do you think, and if you have any hard evidence (stats, etc) to provide, perhaps we can put this down once and for all.

Rap and hip-hop is a degeneration of music, if you can even call that.

The lifestyle and the music does nothing to promote legit business practices. To summerize most rap/hip-hop, it's all about the "bitches, blunts, bentleys, and benjamins." Lets see here, bitches are all hoes, smack em, slap em, shoot em fuck em. It's all about the benjamins, get yours. Fuck whitey, they keep the brother down, don't forget your gat. G Unit. Bling Bling, lowridin to gets mine.

Damn, I just wrote a double platnium hit...

The widespread success of hip hop - specifically gangsta rap - has also had a significant social impact on the demeanor of modern youth. The sometimes egotistic and degenerate attitudes often portrayed in the lyrics and videos of certain hip hop artists have shown negative effects on some of their idolizing fans. While the attitudes of specific artists certainly do not represent the rest of the hip hop community, and the effect of lyrical content on youths who are part of the hip hop culture is debatable, very often such youths adopt the much glamourized "gangsta" persona while not being members of any gang. Often these personas incite anti-social behavior such as peer harassment, neglect towards education, rejection of authority, and petty crimes such as vandalism. While the majority of listeners are able to distinguish entertainment from lessons in social conduct, an evident pseudo-gangsta sub-culture has risen amongst North American youth.

In short, rap and hip-hop has created nothing of value and has drastically adversly affected the entire world with its inception. An entire new "language" was formed because of this inane stupidity. We now have to recognized ebonics as a real language.

To hell with hip-hop, to hell with rap and go listen to some good music. Hell, go listen to beethovan or bach.

It isn't just North America, by the way.

The UK has its own problem with so-called 'Chavs', who emulate a near-identical style to this whole Gangsta fashion.

Any other countries with this problem? I mean - it's inevitable; youth will be stupid.

B4UTRUST wrote:To hell with hip-hop, to hell with rap and go listen to some good music. Hell, go listen to beethovan or bach.

I tend to prefer Mozart myself.

When I look at this "Hip-Hop is ruining our youths" concept, I see parallels to the "Video Games are corrupting our children" notion. As a gamer, I can testify that I am not adversely affected by video games in any way. Games haven't made me a lazy couch potato (I run and bike often, and I've been told I should have ran track in school), they haven't made me slack off in school (hell, I graduated last Saturday third in my class), and I'm not going to be hijacking cars or shooting cops (I actually hate GTA. Horrible game.).

Not being a fan of gangsta rap, I can't similarly defend hip-hop. But is there really any more evidence against it than there is against games? I hate the hip-hop culture and how it makes people act like complete morons, but isn't it sort of the same as the geek culture? Maybe we don't commit acts of vandalism, but is piracy any better? We're stigmatized by radical outsiders because of misconceptions. Perhaps hip-hop is the same way?

Something Awesome wrote:

B4UTRUST wrote:To hell with hip-hop, to hell with rap and go listen to some good music. Hell, go listen to beethovan or bach.

I tend to prefer Mozart myself.

When I look at this "Hip-Hop is ruining our youths" concept, I see parallels to the "Video Games are corrupting our children" notion. As a gamer, I can testify that I am not adversely affected by video games in any way. Games haven't made me a lazy couch potato (I run and bike often, and I've been told I should have ran track in school), they haven't made me slack off in school (hell, I graduated last Saturday third in my class), and I'm not going to be hijacking cars or shooting cops (I actually hate GTA. Horrible game.).

Not being a fan of gangsta rap, I can't similarly defend hip-hop. But is there really any more evidence against it than there is against games? I hate the hip-hop culture and how it makes people act like complete morons, but isn't it sort of the same as the geek culture? Maybe we don't commit acts of vandalism, but is piracy any better? We're stigmatized by radical outsiders because of misconceptions. Perhaps hip-hop is the same way?

Perhaps, but if you were to get a group of randomly selected people together you could probably within a few moments pinpoint who is an occassional listener of rap/hip-hop and who is a huge listener to it. The necklaces, jerseys, bling-bling, the manner in which they talk, several things give this away.

While, to an extent the same could be applied to gamers, it's a little harder.

And as for any misconceptions or misunderstandings, I think the whole east/west rap wars have more or less proven that rap does lead to significant amounts of violence based on nothing more then a stupid concept from a rap song.

To further demonstrate how rap affects a person, my buddy chuck works at a liquor store here in town. He showed me the security tape one night of this guy who came in. Mouth full of gold teeth with a platnium grill across them, huge ass bling around his neck and on his ear. He asked for a bottle of patrone, a type of tequilla. It's not insanely expensive but not that cheap either. About $45 a liter. Now why would he buy this? By the way, patrone is horrible tequilla. It's like injesting kerosene, but I think the kerosene is better. Two shots and you're praying for death the next morning. And I'm not a lightweight, nor do I have problems with tequilla. But patrone... anyhow, he wanted this liquor not because he had heard exceptional things of its quality, its taste, its mixing capacity, no no no... because he heard it in a rap video.

Another classic example of the stupidity related to rap..."Artist" Jay-Z accused Frederic Rouzaud, managing director of Louis Roederer, a company that makes the champagne Cristal(a famous drink of choice by many rappers as reported in their songs. Yes, they're rapping about the streets while sippin $600+ bottles of bubbly...) of racism. Did Frederic come out and say that rap artists were a bunch of no talent assclowns? That they were complete and utter morons with no redeeming value to society or music? Nope. He was asked if he viewed the hip-hop community's obsession with the beverage as detrimental to its image. His reply was that it was a good question but honestly what were you going to do if it was? You can't force people to stop buying it." Jay-Z stated that he found Frederic's comments of hip-hop's "unwanted attention" to be racist. Wow... but oddly enough if someone called him a nigger he probably wouldn't be offended in the slightest...

Something Awesome wrote:

B4UTRUST wrote:To hell with hip-hop, to hell with rap and go listen to some good music. Hell, go listen to beethovan or bach.

I tend to prefer Mozart myself.

When I look at this "Hip-Hop is ruining our youths" concept, I see parallels to the "Video Games are corrupting our children" notion. As a gamer, I can testify that I am not adversely affected by video games in any way. Games haven't made me a lazy couch potato (I run and bike often, and I've been told I should have ran track in school), they haven't made me slack off in school (hell, I graduated last Saturday third in my class), and I'm not going to be hijacking cars or shooting cops (I actually hate GTA. Horrible game.).

Not being a fan of gangsta rap, I can't similarly defend hip-hop. But is there really any more evidence against it than there is against games? I hate the hip-hop culture and how it makes people act like complete morons, but isn't it sort of the same as the geek culture? Maybe we don't commit acts of vandalism, but is piracy any better? We're stigmatized by radical outsiders because of misconceptions. Perhaps hip-hop is the same way?

I have to strongly disagree. Get a random sampling of hard core gamers off the street. CHances are, these individuals are still functional members of society. They just have QUake LAN parties, or get psychotically good at Age of Empires 2. They may be a be a little gangly, but all other things being equal, they are probably slightly above average under most objective measurements. They have a good grasp of the english language (or their native language) they get decent grades, and they treat their fellow human beings with a modecum of respect, even if they hate them with a loathing passion.

The things is, a game is a form of escapism. You play a game in order to escape reality. FOr your own enjoyment. It does not create concrete role models, and they are separated from reality in such a way that no matter the game's content, it is next to impossible for your average person to fail to make the distinction betwen reality and the game. IN other words, while they may be a bit odd, gamers are normal people.

A rap song is more than that. It creates role models, and creates its own set of prescripted norms. It glamorizes things which society finds objectionable in the minds of impressionable youth, and it is not separated from reality in the same way a comptuer game is.

Now get an equal number of rap fans. These individuals are not as functional. Their command of english(or naive language) is poorer.They are less functional in soceity due to a disdain for education. An hey display anti-social behavior, especially in the form of intimidating other people. These behaviors directly immitate the behaviors they hear about in their music.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:The things is, a game is a form of escapism. You play a game in order to escape reality. FOr your own enjoyment. It does not create concrete role models, and they are separated from reality in such a way that no matter the game's content, it is next to impossible for your average person to fail to make the distinction betwen reality and the game. IN other words, while they may be a bit odd, gamers are normal people.

A rap song is more than that. It creates role models, and creates its own set of prescripted norms. It glamorizes things which society finds objectionable in the minds of impressionable youth, and it is not separated from reality in the same way a comptuer game is.

I've always thought of music as a form of escape, or at least serves that purpose at times. Games can also glamorize things unacceptable in society.

Hold on, I just had an epiphany ! Most objections to games harming youth is based on ultra-violent games, in particular, the Grand Theft Auto series. I just realized that GTA seems to be very much influenced by these rap songs. Rap isn't just corrupting youths, it's ruining every other aspect of life too.

So I guess my argument's over. The biggest difference between games and hip-hop is the latter actually does contribute to the downfall of humanity. Or something like that. Has music like this been around long enough for people to grow out of it? What are these kids going to be like twenty years from now?

Or something like that. Has music like this been around long enough for people to grow out of it? What are these kids going to be like twenty years from now?

That in the end is the big question. Gangster Rap is not the first music form to be considered a threat to soceity as a whole.

In living memory this title as gone to Elvis, The Beetles, The Sex Pistols, Metalcia, Megadeath and others.

Clearly society survived these great threats upon it's fabric.

Here is the question, is gangster rap fundalmentally different somehow? Is it a breed apart from Rock N' Roll, Punk, or the other brands of 'devil' music that have come and gone? If it is, how so?

It is different from the other 'devil music' based on this. It is true that those other artists have held the title of threat to society. But, rarely have we seen such degenerate acts based on the influence of those artists. Yes, there have been violence as a result of that music, I won't state that there hasn't been in the past. Not so much with the beetles and Elvis as Metallica, Megadeth, etc. But it has happened.

However, the wholesale promotion of gang violence, murder, theft, rape, drinking and driving, drug use and abuse, and numerous, numerous other illegal, immoral and controversial acts has never been such an extreme part of the rock music scene and is predominantly the bread and butter of rap. There has been numerously more instances of teens and young adults immitating the acts of their favorite "artists" and as a result people have ended up dead.

Again, I won't deny similar actions have happened because of some of the rock music, but it is undeniable that more of it has been done because of the influence of rap then of rock. Rock music, likewise, has never degenerated an established language to the point where it is nearly indecipherable and an entirely new language has to be formed to accomodate it. Rap is a far worse evil then rock.

It is different from the other 'devil music' based on this. It is true that those other artists have held the title of threat to society. But, rarely have we seen such degenerate acts based on the influence of those artists.

Okay, so can anyone prove that gangster rap isn't being caused by gangster behavior instead of the other way around? This may be kinda of a chicken and the egg thing but were these rappers simply descirbing behavior they had witnessed and taken part in (what the fuck happened to the code of silence?) or were they creating this behavior? The question basically boils down to is the music the deases or merely a symthem? (sorry about the spelling),

Rock music, likewise, has never degenerated an established language to the point where it is nearly indecipherable and an entirely new language has to be formed to accomodate it.

grovy man.

Rock believe it or not is more along the lines of encouraging spiritual revolt.



Now that you've stopped laughing, think about it, the spiritual estblishment in the nation is Christianity and the Judeo-Chirstian ethics spawned from it. Rock and roll and it's icons tend to rebell against that whether it be Elvis' hips or Death's Metal tendecies to invoke demons and encourage a jaded view on life or even Mansions outright endorsement of the not so apptly named church of satan.

What kind of rebellion does the current rap encourage? Is it encouraging a rebellion? Or merely pushing an estblished lifestyle?

Rap is a far worse evil then rock.

If this is true, the question then becomes... Why? And what as caused this?

frigidmagi wrote:Okay, so can anyone prove that gangster rap isn't being caused by gangster behavior instead of the other way around? This may be kinda of a chicken and the egg thing but were these rappers simply descirbing behavior they had witnessed and taken part in (what the fuck happened to the code of silence?) or were they creating this behavior? The question basically boils down to is the music the deases or merely a symthem? (sorry about the spelling)

I think it's a bit of both actually. Perhaps some of the earlier generations of rappers were indeed from the street and were part of gangs and truely did rap about the shit that happens. But as a result when they became popular their message of this was spread. Instead of having an effect of killing the problem by making people realize the stupid shit that was happening, it was instead made into a media frenzy that people ate up like hot cakes. And the problem grew instead of died. The lifestyle they portrayed didn't help either. "Yes, I was on the streets shooting my gat, cappin fools before they capped me and my homies, but now I'm living pimptastic with my $100,000 bling bling ring and $50k earrings in my bently with platnium rims. I live in a mansion with a bitch in every room and a ho on every floo'"

People, mainly young adults and teens, saw this and believed in the lifestyle and that if they copied and mimiced it enough that they too could rap about the streets one day and make it big. They did this, not realizing they were prepetuating the problems of their life and their neighborhood instead of solving them, only making it worse. The resulting following sibblings, etc were thrown in for similar reasons or because by that point gangs and street crime were so prevailant in the "ghettos" that there was really no other choice for survival, take your chances with one group or risk being killed by two. And they all listened to the same music, all making them believe that their turf wars and drive bys were bad and dangerous by in the end it would lead them to superstardom if they were good at rap. Similar mindset, I think, to the idea that if I practice football or basketball every day I'll make it to the NFL or NBA that kids and their parents seem to foster.

frigidmagi wrote:grovy man.

I'm sorry, but I can't really compare a few words(Groovy, gnarly, radical, psychadelic, etc) to the formation of an entire new language(ebonics). Rock will replace words yes, but it is, usually(though not always) in a manner in which the word could be understood by the lyrics around it, letting the word gain meaning. Rap usually results in "Off the chizzle fo rizzle my nizzle from the hizzle fo shizzle."

frigidmagi wrote:Rock believe it or not is more along the lines of encouraging spiritual revolt.

No, I would believe this rather easily. Just listening to the lyrics of some groups(but not all mind you) promotes a general rebellion against the predominant religions and the promotion of alternative lifestyles and viewpoints. The faith of a person is usually their own choice anyhow, so while a rockstar's point of view may encourage a religion it doesn't neccessary have the same easy influence that rap does to go tell a empoverished young teen in the 'hood to go rob a liquor store for some quick cash and it'll solve his problems. And if da cops come, shoot dem foos too!

Don't get me wrong, I don't generally promote any religion over the other tending to be more agnostic leaning towards atheist myself. But I don't think the promotion of this spiritual rebellion is as bad as you think or make it out to be. Yes, manson encouraged satanism. Others have encouraged wicca, witchcraft, zen philosphy and buddhism. *shrugs* And again, these are all matters of personal faith, instead of physical reality.

frigidmagi wrote:What kind of rebellion does the current rap encourage? Is it encouraging a rebellion? Or merely pushing an estblished lifestyle?

Rap is a far worse evil then rock.

If this is true, the question then becomes... Why? And what as caused this?

I'm not sure rebellion is the right word here. It fits, but it doesn't always fit well. In a lot of cases they really don't see it as rebelling. It was the way they were raised and the lifestyle they learned in the street. It's not any mental preconditioning to "fuck the system," as say, survival. When you're born and raised into an area that's predominantly controlled not by law and order but by gang warfare and random chaotic violence the system isn't a thought. Seeing tomorrow morning on the other hand, is a big thought. If that requires joining up with a gang to have a better chance, so be it.

Now, does rap start the rebellion or does rap simply encourage it? I think, a little of both. It's a perpetuating cycle. While there was all this crime and hatred before hand, it was a lot more contained and a lot less spread. It would have probably died off or been dealt with eventually. Yeah, that sounds like a copout of leaving the problem and alone, urbal renewal, etc etc. But eventually the gangs would have stopped or been stopped had sufficent varibles and environmental changes been established.

Instead we see rap stars from the ghetto who were part of the bloods, the crips, etc who rap about their gangs and the wars. And hey, look, they're making millions hand over fist. Two months ago that kid couldn't afford a happy meal from McDicks, now he owns his own record label, drives a different porsche every day and has enough bling to light up new york from the reflection. Sure, he smoked a lot of drugs, sold a lot of weed, killed a bunch of folks but it's ok. He's famous now, a rap star. He made it big, he made it out of the 'hood and out of the life. Now he's telling his story of the shit he went through in his life. Now you have little Tyrone who picks up Blood Murda Dawg's new album "Bitches, hos and gats" and listens. All he hears is "I killed cops, I killed crips, I killed a lotta people foo but I got a diamond plated 45 by my pillow at night and I roll fourty deep with my posse and crew, all armed how bout you? I drive my bently and my benz, dey fit all my friends, how bout you? I blast a mo'fuckin' cop if I even see da pig. Just a pull of the trigger, fire a round from my sig, how bout you? But you know I never get in jail, a hunit' thousand, here's my bail!" Wow, if I do shit like this and rap about it I'll get famous too! Let me go see H-dawg up the street and see if he's still got that glock for sale.

And the cycle repeats itself.

Rock had it's own cycle, the seventies with the hippies and the psychadelic drug crazes. And we see the results of that still today with some people. But, eventually, we learned from our mistakes and got over it and moved on. We put down the acid tabs, dropped the peace pipe and took off the bellbottoms. It took us about a decade to realize it was stupid.

Rap's been strong for how many decades now? Going on two+ and it's not getting weaker, it's not learning from its mistakes or stopping the problems it causes. It's making them worse. And that, to me, is why rap is the bigger evil.

But I don't think the promotion of this spiritual rebellion is as bad as you think or make it out to be. Yes, manson encouraged satanism. Others have encouraged wicca, witchcraft, zen philosphy and buddhism. *shrugs* And again, these are all matters of personal faith, instead of physical reality.

Quick comment, it was not my intent to throw a value judgement on what Rock encourages. I meant solely to point out what Rock does, not to give an opinion on the wrongness or rightness of that, as that is a seperate topic and to be fair, such things will and always have happened, it is in the nature of younger generations to rebel against the values of the older generation. This is how change is brought about naturally speaking, no laws required.

I'm sorry this post is a bit behind in the discussion (blame Firefox). I'll be addressing whether rap causes "gangsta" behavior rather than the comparision to other genres.

frigidmagi wrote:Okay, so can anyone prove that gangster rap isn't being caused by gangster behavior instead of the other way around? This may be kinda of a chicken and the egg thing but were these rappers simply descirbing behavior they had witnessed and taken part in (what the fuck happened to the code of silence?) or were they creating this behavior? The question basically boils down to is the music the deases or merely a symthem? (sorry about the spelling)

I found this study that tried to find if rap music caused aggressive behavior in listeners, and though the numbers supported a correlation, that of course doesn't mean whether one caused the other or not:

The article wrote:According to the study, by the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, college students who listen to rap/hip-hop are more likely to use drugs and alcohol and act more aggressively than those who favor other kinds of music.

Researchers at the institute, located in Berkeley, call the study “Music, Substance Use and Aggression.â€

Let's have a look at some so-called Devil Music lyrics:

Suspicious Minds by Elvis Presley

We're caught in a trap, I can't walk out
because I love you too much baby

Why can't you see, what you're doing to me
When you don't believe a word I say.

We can't go on together, with suspicious minds
And we can't build our dreams, on suspicious minds

So, if an old friend I know, drops by to say hello
Would I still see suspicion in your eyes?

Here we go again, asking where I've been
You can't see these tears are real, I'm crying

We can't go on together, with suspicious minds
And be can't build our dreams, on suspicious minds

Oh let our love survive - or dry the tears from your eyes
Let's don't let a good thing die
When honey, you know
I've never lied to you
Mmm yeah, yeah

Compare and contrast the message of 'Shake ya ass':

Shake ya ass, but watch yourself
Shake ya ass, show me what you workin with

I came here with my dick in my hand
Don't make me leave here with my foot in yo' ass; be cool
And don't worry bout how I'm rippin this shit
When I'm flippin what I'm kickin nigga, that's just what I do
I'm effervesecet and I'm off that crescent
Nastier than a full grown German Shepherd; motherfucker keep steppin
They don't fuck with me and they don't
Y'all bitches cant catch me and you won't
Pay ya fare, fix ya hair, throw that pussy
Got a Prada for boonapalist, and Donna for my babooski
You think I'm trickin? Bitch, I ain't trippin
I'm buyin if you got nice curves for your iceberg
Drinkin Henn and actin like it do somethin to me
Hope this indecent proposal make you do somethin with me
Fuck a dollar girl, pick up fifty
And fuck that coward you need a real nigga
Off top knick-a-boxers hurtin shit
Bend over hoe; show me what you workin with!

(First verse and chorus, a bit excessive otherwise)

The Lyrics, I'm afraid, speak for themselves.

Something Awesome wrote:I found this study that tried to find if rap music caused aggressive behavior in listeners, and though the numbers supported a correlation, that of course doesn't mean whether one caused the other or not:

The article wrote:(Sniped first few paragraphs, last one only)
“Rap music advertising has been paired with alcohol, increasing the use of alcohol in this population,” he said. “Alcohol and rap music really have nothing in common except for advertising schemes.”

I find fault with the comment here that alcohol and rap music are mutually exclusive entities save for cross advertisement schemes. Anyone who listens to any hip-hop/rap radio station for an hour can take note of how many times references to drinking, getting drunk, being drunk and specific types of liquor and beer are mentioned. It is quite frequent. Patrone, Cristal, Colt 45, any beer or malt liquor served in "40's", gin and juice, and other alcoholic beverages.

A study done by the Robert Wood Johnson foundation(link) showed that a study of rap songs from 1979 - 1997 revealed a few startling pieces of evidence to the contrary of what David Gard has claimed here.

• In '79 only 8% of rap songs contained references to alcohol. By '97 that number had rose to 45%. Nearly HALF of all rap songs.

• In '79 45% of rap songs reference alcohol in a positive light. In '97 that number rose to 74%. Just under half to just under three-fourths of all rap songs that reference alcohol.

• The proportion of songs mentioning distilled spirits increased significantly in the 1990s, rising from 25 percent of top songs in the late 1980s to 60 percent of songs in the late 1990s.

• Mentions of alcohol brand names increased abruptly in the mid to late 1990s, with 68 percent of alcohol-related songs including mention of a brand name by the end of the study.

Now how is rap and alcohol seperate here? We have over half of all top rap songs mentioning alcohol, three fourths of which do so in a positive manner. Over half mention hard liquor as oppose to beer or malt-liquor. And almost seventy percent of all those songs mention alcohol by a specific brand name. And no, not all those rap stars have endorsement deals with Budweiser, Patrone, or Louis Roederer.

Now, presented with this evidence of just top rap songs, one can see a decided interest in alcohol and promotion of it in rap music. This study was done on just top rap songs, not all of them. This means that these are the popular songs that would be heard most often on a radio station, listened to most often on a tape or cd, or be considered an artist or groups #1 hit. And let me tell you, my local hip-hop/rap station will play the same 15 songs over and fucking over all day long, all day, every day. I will hear Chamillionaire's Ridin' at least 5 times a day at work.

So, now take into account that if you listen to a given station for an approximate 6-7 hour time frame you will hear the same song repeated 4-5 times. Now if 68% of those songs, or approximately 11.6 of 15 songs are repeated 5 times, usually back to back, how many run throughs will it take before Tyrone wants to try Patrone or Cristal because Jay-Z, Nelly and Lil' Kim drink it? How many times will that kid pass up a bottle of patron at the liquor store and that song will go through their head? But alcohol and rap are seperate... bullshit.

I think the only "rap" our friend Mr. Gard has listened to include such greats as Mirakul Mafia or perhaps Vanilla Ice. But then again, Mirakul Mafia, a christian rap group promotes getting "Crunk Drunk" off of holy water. And V. Ice promoted drug use. So hell, even in softcode whitey rap you can't escape illicit drug usage and in christian rap you can't escape attempts to get drunk.