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I was surfing the net and stumbled upon this, which is a brief page about religion in Europe. This from the final paragraph is what got my attention:

An important factor in why this is happening in Europe but not America seems likely to be the separation of church and state that exists in the United States. Here, no one church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people. In Europe, however, that's just what happened - and disillusionment over established political institutions has translated into disillusionment over religious institutions as well. You can find religiosity thriving in Europe, but not in the old churches - you find it in new churches created by immigrants.

It seems to make some sense to me. What do you think?

It makes sense, and it'd explain a few things. British law is partially based upon Christianity... but it seems to have mellowed out quite a bit. As an example: I find it quite interesting that Gay Marriage (legally called 'Civil Partnership', but that's just semantics) is accepted and welcomed in a country which doesn't have any sort of official seperation of Church and State, while it is universally despised and ridiculed in a country which does have official seperation of Church and State in its constitution.

It ignores that a lot of the people that came over to America were the more hard-line Christians that were escaping European prosecution. That alone would make the seperation of church and state something that is necessary.

I don't know if it's true or not, but I have seen it used by many religious supporters of separation of church and state. Their reasoning is that state support makes the church corrupt and lazy and doesn't make true believers because, meh, you're just born into it and don't "choose" or truly believe in it (whether or not these people are actually "choosing" something they've been brought up since birth to believe is beyond the scope of their argument)

I'd say it's probably a combination of many factors.

One thing to note, the intertwining of state and church tends to promote the corruption and weakening of both. For example look at Iran, Suadia Arabia or the old European governments and other nations where the church and state became completely and totally mixed togather.

It seems a logical thought that both the state and religion are healthier if they are not mixed togather. Or at the very least mistakes and plain corruption and eviliness can be contained.

Consider Mark Foley, imagine if the Catholic Church was our state religion for example.

What does separation of state and church mean in the context of this thread? Does it require an explicit clause in the Constitution equivalent of a country or is the simple fact that the Church has no say in politics and there's no state religion enough?
I'm asking because by the latter definition Germany DOES have separation of state and church, and the last time I remember religion making the news was becauses the churches were howling about losing members.

Yes Batman you do have a seperation of Chruch and State, after how many religious wars and unions of church and state over German soil?

The recent period of secularism is a drop in the bucket against an ocean of religon and state being unified and it seems to me to have left it's mark.

I don't say that as a moral judgement of any type mind you.

frigidmagi wrote:Yes Batman you do have a seperation of Chruch and State, after how many religious wars and unions of church and state over German soil?
The recent period of secularism is a drop in the bucket against an ocean of religon and state being unified and it seems to me to have left it's mark.

You mean the same ocean the settlers who eventually became the US of A came from?
Germany has been mostly secular easily as long as the US exist.

I don't say that as a moral judgement of any type mind you.

Given that I didn't manage to come up with any interpretation of that as a moral judgement when trying (just as an intellecual exercise) I can assure you I didn't take it that way

You mean the same ocean the settlers who eventually became the US of A came from?

Metaphorical Oceans Batman, and you'll note that the US got settlers form a mix of nations preventing any single religious tradition from taking hold over anymore then a regional area (example Quakers in Pennsulvanyia, Purtins in Mass.)

Germany has been mostly secular easily as long as the US exist

Your nation was a patchwork of princedoms, dukedoms and other fiefs each with it's own traditions regarding religion and state. It was not secular because Germany as a unified nation didn't fucking exist until Bismark unified it, well after the founding of my own, thank you very much.

Given that I didn't manage to come up with any interpretation of that as a moral judgement when trying (just as an intellecual exercise) I can assure you I didn't take it that way

frigidmagi wrote:

You mean the same ocean the settlers who eventually became the US of A came from?

Metaphorical Oceans Batman, and you'll note that the US got settlers form a mix of nations preventing any single religious tradition from taking hold over anymore then a regional area (example Quakers in Pennsulvanyia, Purtins in Mass.)

I WAS talking about the SAME metaphorical oceans, you know.

Germany has been mostly secular easily as long as the US exist

Your nation was a patchwork of princedoms, dukedoms and other fiefs each with it's own traditions regarding religion and state. It was not secular because Germany as a unified nation didn't fucking exist until Bismark unified it, well after the founding of my own, thank you very much.

So because Germany didn't exist as a single nation on paper it can't have been secular. The term you're looking for is nitpicking. Yes, technically there was no such nation as Germany at the time.
Why don't you show me that the hodgepodge of fiefdoms at al that would eventually become Germany wasn't mostly secular during that time.

the article wrote:An important factor in why this is happening in Europe but not America seems likely to be the separation of church and state that exists in the United States. Here, no one church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people.

So in United States, no church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people, huh? How about the "under God" phrase in the United States' Pledge of Allegiance? How about the banning of the Theory of Evolution in public schools? The attempt to inject God and creationism into public schools?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard such things happened in European nations.

Then you need a history lesson KAN.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

the article wrote:An important factor in why this is happening in Europe but not America seems likely to be the separation of church and state that exists in the United States. Here, no one church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people.

So in United States, no church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people, huh? How about the "under God" phrase in the United States' Pledge of Allegiance? How about the banning of the Theory of Evolution in public schools? The attempt to inject God and creationism into public schools?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard such things happened in European nations.

Does the phrase Gott Mit Uns mean anything to you?

How about Turkey being expressely Muslim, or Greece banning forms of music for being "satanic"

How about England HAVING A STATE RELIGION

Or Germany using the tax system to tithe churchgoers, giving recognized churches (to say nothing of what business a government has recognizing or not recognizing a church) a certain percentage of every members gross income

The Kansas Board of Education isn't exactly a branch of the government.

Batman wrote:The Kansas Board of Education isn't exactly a branch of the government.

Are you high?

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

the article wrote:An important factor in why this is happening in Europe but not America seems likely to be the separation of church and state that exists in the United States. Here, no one church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people.

So in United States, no church or religion has been able to use the power of the government to maintain a monopoly over the people, huh? How about the "under God" phrase in the United States' Pledge of Allegiance? How about the banning of the Theory of Evolution in public schools? The attempt to inject God and creationism into public schools?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard such things happened in European nations.

Does the phrase Gott Mit Uns mean anything to you?

How about Turkey being expressely Muslim, or Greece banning forms of music for being "satanic"

How about England HAVING A STATE RELIGION

Or Germany using the tax system to tithe churchgoers, giving recognized churches (to say nothing of what business a government has recognizing or not recognizing a church) a certain percentage of every members gross income

Okay, so I was incorrect about the European parts, but my post STILL rebuked the article's claim about no religion has been able to use the power of the government to monopoly the people in the United States.

Yes, the separation between church and state is explicitly stated in the US Constitution, but saying that the US is "free" from Christianity is kinda leap of logic.

EDIT: If anything, I tend to agree with Charon: separation between church and state could probably a necessity in the US, considering the fact that many early colonists were hard-line Christians. In fact, even with explicit curch-state separation, things like shoving the Bible into public schools or the Pledge of Allegiance shenanigan still happen. Now I dare not to imagine what the US would have been without church and state separation.

SirNitram wrote:

Batman wrote:The Kansas Board of Education isn't exactly a branch of the government.

Are you high?

No, but I might be woefully ignorant about how the US education system works. I WAS under the impression that that the curricilum of schools is decided on the state level and thus NOT pressed on them by the federal government.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never heard such things happened in European nations.

Does the phrase Gott Mit Uns mean anything to you?

Well it doesn't to me.

How about Turkey being expressely Muslim, or Greece banning forms of music for being "satanic"

While you're technically correct I wouldn't exactly call those two typical European western countries (there's a REASON Turkey han't been allowed in to the EU yet).

How about England HAVING A STATE RELIGION

That has done how much oppression recently? Has had how many funerals picketed? Has done WHAT, EXACTLY, to alter british law recently?

Or Germany using the tax system to tithe churchgoers, giving recognized churches (to say nothing of what business a government has recognizing or not recognizing a church)

The term 'none whatsoever' comes to mind

a certain percentage of every members gross income

That you can easily opt out of (the fact that you actually HAVE to opt out of it uis of course another matter). How does Churches being tacitly supported by the law translate into them using the power of the law to maintain a monopoly over the people when people are runnig away from them in droves and the Churches are powerless to stop it?

Well it doesn't to me.

I will fault the german education system for that ;)

The simple fact is, Catholicism was pretty much manded in germany within the last 65 years. And guess by who!

While you're technically correct I wouldn't exactly call those two typical European western countries (there's a REASON Turkey han't been allowed in to the EU yet).

Still european.

Then there is Poland...

hat has done how much oppression recently? Has had how many funerals picketed? Has done WHAT, EXACTLY, to alter british law recently?

The simple fact that they have a state religion at all is oppression.

That you can easily opt out of (the fact that you actually HAVE to opt out of it uis of course another matter). How does Churches being tacitly supported by the law translate into them using the power of the law to maintain a monopoly over the people when people are runnig away from them in droves and the Churches are powerless to stop it?

The simple fact that you have to opt out. The simple fact that the government is in the business of recognizing what religions are valid religions and which arent.

Oppression in any other form is still oppression.

I would also point out that technically, no religion has a monopoly over the people here. It is a collection of religions :(

The problem here is the same one that you guys have over in Europe. People vote. DOnt take this the wrong way, but people vote with what ever crazy ideology is popular in their country.

Over in europe for example, there is a knee jerk reaction to anything that includes the worde Genetic and Food in the same sentence, IIRC. Here, there is a knee jerk response whenever God is mentioned.

There are differences other than the seperation of church and state which cause this difference in the crazy ideology in fashion. The Cold War for example. Bombing runs being directed at you guys and not us in WW2. Stuff that will make you wary of any established institution. (Ironic considering the amount of power your governments have, but I digress)

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

hat has done how much oppression recently? Has had how many funerals picketed? Has done WHAT, EXACTLY, to alter british law recently?

The simple fact that they have a state religion at all is oppression.

I beg to differ. What is formally stated in a nation's constitution doesn't automatically reflect what actually happens in the society. Formally, PRC is a communist nation, but do you really believe that communism is still practiced in the country? (other than politics/ideology context)

On the other hand, the US has formal declaration of separating church and state, but things like Pledge of Allegiance still happens (which is basically oppression for non-Christians).

During the cold war, some Eastern Bloc nations formally named themselves 'Democratic Republic of.....' <insert name here>, despite the government was not democratic at all.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Well it doesn't to me.

I will fault the german education system for that ;)

That would sorta UNDERMINE your point, you know. IF it was state-mandated why wouldn't I know it?

The simple fact is, Catholicism was pretty much manded in germany within the last 65 years. And guess by who!

The term 'garbage' comes to mind. Your evidence for this is? There is NO official state religion in Germany. There are NO official repercussions for opting out of the church tax (the objectionability of which I never disagreed with). There are NO repercussions for NOT being catholic either by law or in most cases at all (on account of most people not giving a flying fuck what religion you are).

While you're technically correct I wouldn't exactly call those two typical European western countries (there's a REASON Turkey han't been allowed in to the EU yet).

Still european.
Then there is Poland...

Convincing argument you've got there. Incidentally Turkey is an ongoing study on how secularity is trying to get a hold on religion.

hat has done how much oppression recently? Has had how many funerals picketed? Has done WHAT, EXACTLY, to alter british law recently?

The simple fact that they have a state religion at all is oppression.

Maybe on paper. The suffering resulting from that is?

That you can easily opt out of (the fact that you actually HAVE to opt out of it uis of course another matter). How does Churches being tacitly supported by the law translate into them using the power of the law to maintain a monopoly over the people when people are runnig away from them in droves and the Churches are powerless to stop it?

The simple fact that you have to opt out. The simple fact that the government is in the business of recognizing what religions are valid religions and which arent.

Oh really. You know what religions that tax is distributed to?

Oppression in any other form is still oppression.

Opression without consequences isn't.[/i]

I would also point out that technically, no religion has a monopoly over the people here. It is a collection of religions :(

They're collectively known as 'Christianity'. You're confusing 'sects' and 'religions'.

The problem here is the same one that you guys have over in Europe. People vote. DOnt take this the wrong way, but people vote with what ever crazy ideology is popular in their country.
Over in europe for example, there is a knee jerk reaction to anything that includes the worde Genetic and Food in the same sentence, IIRC. Here, there is a knee jerk response whenever God is mentioned.

So voters on both sides of the pond are morons. Your point is?

There are differences other than the seperation of church and state which cause this difference in the crazy ideology in fashion. The Cold War for example. Bombing runs being directed at you guys and not us in WW2. Stuff that will make you wary of any established institution. (Ironic considering the amount of power your governments have, but I digress)

Except YOU are the ones who are paranoid about the government.
Except WE aren't the ones who legalized torture, extended detainment without trial on no grounds indefinitely, and generally kicked the document that SUPPOSEDLY made our country what it is today i the gutter...

Batman are you aware there were parts of your nation where ArchBishops directly governed until the early 1800s/ late 1700s? Have you read anything about the 30 year war?

Yes the states decide what goes on education wise in their borders. States are governments however.

Additional notes: Helena Curtens and Agnes Olmanns were the last women to be executed as witches in Germany, in 1738. Witch trails were run by both government and religious figures working togather in trial.

The last execution for witchcraft in England took place in 1716, when Mary Hicks and her daughter Elizabeth were hanged. Jane Wenham was among the last subjects of a typical witch trial in England in 1712, but was pardoned after her conviction and set free. However as late as 1944, Helen Duncan was the last person to be convicted under the British Witchcraft Act, authorities fearing that by her alleged clairvoyant powers she could betray details of the D-Day preparations. She spent nine months in prison. The Act was repealed in 1951.

Well, Batman, I see my point whent right over your head.

That would sorta UNDERMINE your point, you know. IF it was state-mandated why wouldn't I know it?

The phrase Gott Mit Uns was used by the Nazis. You said it has no meaning to you. either you dont understand your native language, or you dont know your own country's history. Either is fault of the german education system.

The term 'garbage' comes to mind. Your evidence for this is? There is NO official state religion in Germany. There are NO official repercussions for opting out of the church tax (the objectionability of which I never disagreed with). There are NO repercussions for NOT being catholic either by law or in most cases at all (on account of most people not giving a flying fuck what religion you are).

I am not talking about today dipshit. There was a time in your country when people who werent the correct religion got sent to death camps. Remember?

It was under 65 years ago.

Maybe on paper. The suffering resulting from that is?

Tax dollars being funneled into a religion that the person paying for it doesnt believe in.

It isnt much, but it is basically theft.

Oh really. You know what religions that tax is distributed to?

I dont need to

They're collectively known as 'Christianity'. You're confusing 'sects' and 'religions'.

No, I am not. They are often so different, they may as well be different religions. You guys dont have the massive array of different types of christians in europe that we have here.

Except YOU are the ones who are paranoid about the government.
Except WE aren't the ones who legalized torture, extended detainment without trial on no grounds indefinitely, and generally kicked the document that SUPPOSEDLY made our country what it is today i the gutter...

And all of that shit is illegal. There is a difference between governments having power that you consentually give it, and governments having power that it steals in typical government kleptocratic fashion.

frigidmagi wrote:Batman are you aware there were parts of your nation where ArchBishops directly governed until the early 1800s/ late 1700s? Have you read anything about the 30 year war?

Not since I've been out of school, no. I naturally conceed the point.

Yes the states decide what goes on education wise in their borders. States are governments however.

I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking when I posted that. You are of course correct.

Additional notes: Helena Curtens and Agnes Olmanns were the last women to be executed as witches in Germany, in 1738. Witch trails were run by both government and religious figures working togather in trial.
The last execution for witchcraft in England took place in 1716, when Mary Hicks and her daughter Elizabeth were hanged. Jane Wenham was among the last subjects of a typical witch trial in England in 1712, but was pardoned after her conviction and set free. However as late as 1944, Helen Duncan was the last person to be convicted under the British Witchcraft Act, authorities fearing that by her alleged clairvoyant powers she could betray details of the D-Day preparations. She spent nine months in prison. The Act was repealed in 1951.

Hrm. Maybe Europe's secularism doesn't go back quite as far as I thought.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Well, Batman, I see my point whent right over your head.

That would sorta UNDERMINE your point, you know. IF it was state-mandated why wouldn't I know it?

The phrase Gott Mit Uns was used by the Nazis. You said it has no meaning to you. either you dont understand your native language, or you dont know your own country's history. Either is fault of the german education system.

Or maybe I don't remember every trivial detail about said history on account of not paying all that much attention in history classes. And I fail to see how the Nazis making use of religion for propaganda purposes translates into the church actually having any power.

The term 'garbage' comes to mind. Your evidence for this is? There is NO official state religion in Germany. There are NO official repercussions for opting out of the church tax (the objectionability of which I never disagreed with). There are NO repercussions for NOT being catholic either by law or in most cases at all (on account of most people not giving a flying fuck what religion you are).

I am not talking about today dipshit. There was a time in your country when people who werent the correct religion got sent to death camps. Remember?

Yes. And I ALSO remember that they were sent to those death camps for being the wrong race (the stupidity of the idea notwithstanding). The Jews were killed for supposedly being a lower race, not having the wrong religion. Poland was mostly Roman Catholic and they were STILL considered 'Untermenschen'. It wasn't religion it was a severely twisted interpretation of biology/genetics.

Maybe on paper. The suffering resulting from that is?

Tax dollars being funneled into a religion that the person paying for it doesnt believe in.
It isnt much, but it is basically theft.

No it isn't. Theft requires money being taken from you against your will when by NOT opting out of it you are agreeing to that money being given to church. The very fact that you HAVE to opt out of it is certainly objectionable but theft it is not, at least not any more than any other tax is (which is as often as not ALSO funneled into something you object to).

Oh really. You know what religions that tax is distributed to?

I dont need to.

Yes you do if you're claiming it's being funneled to a religion the taxpayer does not believe in and that the government is deciding what is and isn't a valid religion.

Except YOU are the ones who are paranoid about the government.
Except WE aren't the ones who legalized torture, extended detainment without trial on no grounds indefinitely, and generally kicked the document that SUPPOSEDLY made our country what it is today i the gutter...

And all of that shit is illegal. There is a difference between governments having power that you consentually give it, and governments having power that it steals in typical government kleptocratic fashion.

If that shit is oh so illegal why is nothing being done about it? Anyway that was mainly in response to you claiming us europeans would be wary of our governments. You Yanks are PARANOID about yours and they STILL got away with it.