Morality of the Boon Dock Saints

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:41 am

I'm watching that movie again and as a joke I asked several people over AIM to think of them as DnD paladin(Laws of God above the laws of men, Smite Evil, etc)... But then I had to ask what is the morality of these two?

Just the two brothers who started it. Not El Duc and Rocco.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:45 am

They are fucking nuts. But I think basically good. The fact is, they killed people for whom guilt was not in question. Mob bosses, et al.

Angelod · Post by **Angelod** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:12 am

What is insane about striking back at the people who have essentially tormented and controlled the general populace for years? Mob bosses are
"bad people", and if they were caught and ACTUALLY tried, they would likely be put to death. However, money will get you out of anything in this land of the free. I think they were justified in their own old testament kind of way.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:19 am

One thought I wanna throw out there. It is phyiscally impossible to fire 8 shots that will kill 8 moving men accurately while spinning upside down. No amount of natural talent or skill will help you in that position.

Yet the police remark as to the sheer skill displayed in the hit.

Angelod · Post by **Angelod** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:23 am

Perhaps the implications of this, and their very survival and success in their quest, is indicative of the truth behind their belief that they are completing "God's quest".

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:24 am

I believe it is certainly evidence to be considered.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:33 am

frigidmagi wrote:One thought I wanna throw out there. It is phyiscally impossible to fire 8 shots that will kill 8 moving men accurately while spinning upside down. No amount of natural talent or skill will help you in that position.

Yet the police remark as to the sheer skill displayed in the hit.

Correction: it IS physically possible. Just highly unlikely. And the police probably thought they dropped in straight, not upside down.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:41 am

Correction: it IS physically possible. Just highly unlikely. And the police probably thought they dropped in straight, not upside down.

I'll be blunt. I spent four years being trained on how to kill with guns. Everything in my training tells me Yes it is phyiscally impossible. Kindly explain what strange chain of events or knowledge leds you to the opposite idea.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:33 am

I'm going with straight-up insane.

There is a reason we don't run by vigilante justice, after all.

And FM's point is that the only way something like that upside-down spinny in the movie would work is pure luck (and movie magic). Nobody trains in 'upside down, spinning around, multiple close-range targets' technique.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:20 am

frigidmagi wrote:
Correction: it IS physically possible. Just highly unlikely. And the police probably thought they dropped in straight, not upside down.
I'll be blunt. I spent four years being trained on how to kill with guns. Everything in my training tells me Yes it is phyiscally impossible. Kindly explain what strange chain of events or knowledge leds you to the opposite idea.

The shots AS SUCH probably ARE physically possible (haven't seen the movie), i.e. there's nothing in the laws of physics preventing said shots from SOMEHOW happening. A human being DELIBERATELY MAKING THEM most definitely is NOT.
I suspect The Cleric was going with the former.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:32 am

I suspect the Cleric was trying to be a smartass know it all dick. Now that we gotten that out of the way let's get back to the topic.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:57 am

frigidmagi wrote:
Correction: it IS physically possible. Just highly unlikely. And the police probably thought they dropped in straight, not upside down.
I'll be blunt. I spent four years being trained on how to kill with guns. Everything in my training tells me Yes it is phyiscally impossible. Kindly explain what strange chain of events or knowledge leds you to the opposite idea.

No, it is NOT impossible. Very very difficult yes... but possible.

Example. There is a possibility of hitting a single moving man with a single shot at close range while upside down.

There is then therefore the possibility of hitting 8 men under the same conditions. The fact that you couldnt do it, does not preclude its possibility. A trick shooter for example may be able to do it of they trained for it.

This probability increases when two men are doing it instead of one. Not be much...but it still increases.

What is insane about striking back at the people who have essentially tormented and controlled the general populace for years? Mob bosses are
"bad people", and if they were caught and ACTUALLY tried, they would likely be put to death. However, money will get you out of anything in this land of the free. I think they were justified in their own old testament kind of way.

No remorse. A normal well-adjusted person who has not gone through military training (which is designed to reduce remorse for killing people under the right circumstances) will not be just fine, like they were, with killing 8 people. There is something wrong in their minds.

Not to mention the fact that they think they are on a quest from God. I tend to think that people who think God is talking to them are insane. Just me though.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:42 pm

Not to mention the fact that they think they are on a quest from God. I tend to think that people who think God is talking to them are insane. Just me though.

Well considering you don't believe in God in the first place...

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:23 pm

frigidmagi wrote:
Not to mention the fact that they think they are on a quest from God. I tend to think that people who think God is talking to them are insane. Just me though.
Well considering you don't believe in God in the first place...

Is there evidence in the 'Boondock Saints' movie for God actually existing in-universe? Because there sure as hell is none in the real world.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:26 pm

frigidmagi wrote:
Not to mention the fact that they think they are on a quest from God. I tend to think that people who think God is talking to them are insane. Just me though.
Well considering you don't believe in God in the first place...

It's a fair call to make, but. God's talking to just one person, but all he's saying is "KILL KILL KILL"? Red flag, man.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:28 pm

Actually he would be talking to three people and to use the excalt qoute from the scene in the movie...

"Destroy what is evil so what is good may florish."

Post by **Dark Silver** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:28 pm

The Saints themselves were rather nuts - viewing them as Paladin types, would make them chaotic good, they beleived in destroying what was evil, so that what was good would conceivable flourish. And they weren't above breaking the law in order to obtain those goals.

On a side note, a average person (as the Saints where) could in no way in hell, hit eight people with eight shots in a upside down spinning position like it was in the movie.

They were firing .357's, if I recall the scene correctly, and the kick from those guns would cause them to swing about, throwing off every shot without them reaiming. By the time they would reaim each shot, they'd have to redo the shots, and in that time, they'd be a spinning target for the other guys in the movie.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:31 pm

M9 Berettas actually.

As for the rope thing-- complete accident. They fell through the ducting, ceiling, and the rope caught. There is no fucking way they could've made those shots without divine assistance.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:12 am

No, they could have. It is statistically possible. It is AMAZINGLY unlikely. But it is possible. If they were firing completely randomly, those bullets have to hit something. They have to have a path. Any combination of paths within certain constraints are equally likely.

Apply the anthropic principle. They hit their targets, but it was no more or less likely than any other combination of 8 shots. We think it is impossible in retrospect, but really, so is drawing that specific poker hand...

*chuckles*

Actually, the shots were not random. They were aiming (even if in a very odd position). So that reduces the target area of each of their shots. Increasing the likelyhood. They were at very close range against suprised targets.

It doesnt require divine assistance. But they will probably never be able to repeat it....

Post by **Dark Silver** » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

Statistically possible, perhaps.

But everything is statistically possible. Doesn't mean that it's humanly possible. Given the TYPE of weapons, the fact they fell through the air ducting, caught by their feet in rope, and were spinning, all conspire to throw the odds of them making those shots into the astronomical range.

Under perfect conditions, making 8 shots and hitting 8 targets perfectly while upside down and aiming, is going to be drastically more difficult than trying to do it under optimal, or even slightly more optimal conditions than the Saints had it.

The fact they made the shots is beyond doubt, we've seen the movie, we see the scene and the fact that they did it. The fact that they pulled the one in a trillion shot odds EIGHT FUCKING TIMES between them in a row, puts it in the realm of Deus putting his hand in that.

They were not exceptionally skilled, nothing in the movie shows us that they had anymore skills than the average person, just that they had either excessive luck or the hand of Deity involved in their actions.

Post by **B4UTRUST** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:02 am

While not stated you would think that given who their father is and what he does that they probably have had at least SOME prior training with firearms at some point in their life. However, that in no way shape or form prepares them for making upside down spinning single round headshots.

But, as has been stated, it is possible. I would agree with Frigid in that no real military training preps you for something like that and if it ever did happen it would be sheer fucking luck. But, it is statisically possible. It's also possible I'm going to shit myself to death in the next five minutes after having won the lottery that I didn't play in. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of probability. And that's a one in a million shot 8 times running...

Morality: Definatly insane, though good.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:49 am

Dark Silver wrote:Statistically possible, perhaps.

But everything is statistically possible. Doesn't mean that it's humanly possible. Given the TYPE of weapons, the fact they fell through the air ducting, caught by their feet in rope, and were spinning, all conspire to throw the odds of them making those shots into the astronomical range.

Under perfect conditions, making 8 shots and hitting 8 targets perfectly while upside down and aiming, is going to be drastically more difficult than trying to do it under optimal, or even slightly more optimal conditions than the Saints had it.

The fact they made the shots is beyond doubt, we've seen the movie, we see the scene and the fact that they did it. The fact that they pulled the one in a trillion shot odds EIGHT FUCKING TIMES between them in a row, puts it in the realm of Deus putting his hand in that.

They were not exceptionally skilled, nothing in the movie shows us that they had anymore skills than the average person, just that they had either excessive luck or the hand of Deity involved in their actions.

Would you say that it is divine intervention when you get a particular combinaion in a random number generator?Any one combination is very very impobable, but no more imporbable than any other combinatio and we dont invoke a deity.

We can treat these gunshots in the same way. The fact that they aimed at their targets, increases the probability that they will hit by decreasing the target area. They were no more than 10-15 feet away from their targets. if that. This increases the probability because their opponents take up a good portion of the field of fire. The shots are not as unlikely as you think. Certainly unlikely, and not something they will EVER be able to repeat. But not as improbable I think as you are making it out to be. I would have to calculate bullet trajectories to be certain... something I am addmitedly loathe to do

Oh god damn it... now I am curious. Now I have to rent the fucking movie and take a look at the scene and see what I can do...

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:10 pm

Divine intervention is what Allen pointed out earlier- the recoil should've been tossing their arms all over the place. There's a reason that we're trained to shoot in Weaver stance. When standing upright, you also have the effect of being braced and having gravity working to help you bring the weapon back down into line.

Really, it's a movie magic cool scene that defies conventional analysis. Realistically, there's no way that after one or two rounds they wouldn't have been peppering the floor and all manner and sundry of random things.

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