Board symbols discussion

[Robert Walper]

Religious considerations, plain and simple. They do not have to be logical or reasonable, they simply have to be brought up. And the rational people out there are still vastly outnumbered by the religious ones, thus anyone arguing there's "nothing wrong with the pentagram symbol" is "wrong" because the larger group can outshout the smaller one.

That's my take on the issue at any rate, since I haven't seen a single rational arguement against it.

So Satanism is more 'objectionable' than killing a large number of people, despite Satanism is more a pop-culture phenomenon while Nagasaki and Hiroshima were real?

EDIT: and that ignoring the fact that Pentagram is not always necessarily associated with Satanism. IIRC, before Christianity, it was a symbol of Earth-related harmony or something.

Actually, I looked up the symbol before. Satanic association is in fact quite a minor, though relatively recent and recognized meaning. It's other meanings and uses vastly outweigh such, but apparently that doesn't matter.

[Charon]

Religious considerations, plain and simple. They do not have to be logical or reasonable, they simply have to be brought up. And the rational people out there are still vastly outnumbered by the religious ones, thus anyone arguing there's "nothing wrong with the pentagram symbol" is "wrong" because the larger group can outshout the smaller one.

That's my take on the issue at any rate, since I haven't seen a single rational arguement against it.

Ah yes Walper, you are the one reasonable man standing against the flood of irrationality. Where have I heard this before... Oh yeah, Darkstar. As for your entire argument, fallicious. Let me see if I can knock this into your head if I use bold lettering. No one is arguing if the pentagram is "wrong", the argument is about if we should use a religious symbol with bad implications on a small webboard where every person counts.

And apparently you cannot read as there have been NUMEROUS rational arguements against the use of the Pentagram

So Satanism is more 'objectionable' than killing a large number of people, despite Satanism is more a pop-culture phenomenon while Nagasaki and Hiroshima were real?

I would say it is more of an issue of the connections people make in their head. Oddly enough when I see a Pentagram my mind goes to Satanism and a whole lot of other bad nasty things. When I think about nukes, I think only about the nukes. The fact that they killed a large group of people does not really cross my mind until it is mentioned and even then my mind goes through all the reasonable ways that they have been used. I don't really know why it would do that. But I'd like to think that my mind isn't that far off that I could apply the situation to most people. Basically a "Satanism=Animal and people sacrifices" "Nukes=WWII and testing in the Midwest".

[Robert Walper]

before Christianity, it was a symbol of Earth-related harmony or something.

Wicca and Paganism.

Which were both branded as 'eval' by Christianity... along with a lot of things, which themselves are rather victimless.

Yeah, and alot of christian fundies are offended by evil things like gay rights, nudity, atheism, etc. The pentagram is just another one of their targets for irrational condemning.

[Charon]

Actually, I looked up the symbol before. Satanic association is in fact quite a minor, though relatively recent and recognized meaning. It's other meanings and uses vastly outweigh such, but apparently that doesn't matter.

Ok, I'll keep that in mind when I'm putting up my swastika submission, or my cross submission as both have many other uses other than their most known one. And I expect you to fully back me.

[Robert Walper]

No one is arguing if the pentagram is "wrong", the argument is about if we should use a religious symbol with bad implications on a small webboard where every person counts.

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

[Narsil]

"Satanism=Animal and people sacrifices"

Quite simply the most irrational, incorrect, and flawed view I've ever heard. Satanic rituals don't actually exist. Animal sacrifices were done in old religions (where they'd use a lamb, pig or cow, and then use it for food anyway, which I have no problem with).

Ah yes Walper, you are the one reasonable man standing against the flood of irrationality. Where have I heard this before... Oh yeah, Darkstar.

Actually, there's several people who agree that the Pentagram is a harmless symbol. And I dislike Walper, he just happens to be raising a valid point herein (a rare occurence, but still...). I wouldn't liken Walper to Darkstar in this instance, although in one or two of his arguements he HAS used similar tactics (although that is irrelevant to this discussion)

[Robert Walper]

Actually, I looked up the symbol before. Satanic association is in fact quite a minor, though relatively recent and recognized meaning. It's other meanings and uses vastly outweigh such, but apparently that doesn't matter.

Ok, I'll keep that in mind when I'm putting up my swastika submission, or my cross submission as both have many other uses other than their most known one. And I expect you to fully back me.

And yes, I would.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

So Satanism is more 'objectionable' than killing a large number of people, despite Satanism is more a pop-culture phenomenon while Nagasaki and Hiroshima were real?

I would say it is more of an issue of the connections people make in their head. Oddly enough when I see a Pentagram my mind goes to Satanism and a whole lot of other bad nasty things. When I think about nukes, I think only about the nukes. The fact that they killed a large group of people does not really cross my mind until it is mentioned and even then my mind goes through all the reasonable ways that they have been used. I don't really know why it would do that. But I'd like to think that my mind isn't that far off that I could apply the situation to most people. Basically a "Satanism=Animal and people sacrifices" "Nukes=WWII and testing in the Midwest".

But here's the problem: Pentagram's association with human sacrifice is closer to pop-culture instead of reality, while nuclear casualties IS real. So which one is more rational: objection against Pentagram, or against Nuclear Weapons?



EDIT:

Ok, I'll keep that in mind when I'm putting up my swastika submission, or my cross submission as both have many other uses other than their most known one. And I expect you to fully back me.

I don't think it is fair to compare Pentagram with Swastika (unless we're talking about Buddhist Swastika), since Nazi's atrocities is real compared to pop-culture depiction of Satanism.

[Narsil]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind when I'm putting up my swastika submission, or my cross submission as both have many other uses other than their most known one. And I expect you to fully back me.

I don't mind swastika's... they're a mere image. Crosses appear on the English flag. I actually relate the Swastika to the original Buddhist usage, rather than the Nazi usage. (Which I'd rather we forget they existed outside the history class, they bring up disturbing thoughts which many of us could live without.)

[Ace Pace]

No one is arguing if the pentagram is "wrong", the argument is about if we should use a religious symbol with bad implications on a small webboard where every person counts.

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

You don't get it do you?

In a webboard where every single person is a Very Importent Denzine(VID!), you cannot afford to offend anyone, regardless of why.

[Robert Walper]

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

You don't get it do you?

In a webboard where every single person is a Very Importent Denzine(VID!), you cannot afford to offend anyone, regardless of why.

Well, I'm offended it's not included, since I created it and think it fits the board nicely.

Thus, according to your logic, we cannot afford to offend anyone, therefore it must be included, right?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

You don't get it do you?

In a webboard where every single person is a Very Importent Denzine(VID!), you cannot afford to offend anyone, regardless of why.

Ace, I believe we are not debating about it anymore: the issue has been resolved, and the Pentagram has been singled out for that reason.

Here, we are questioning why some people would be highly offended by Pentagram; especially when compared to things like Swastika or nuclear weapons, while, like I said, the "evil" of Pentagram is more a pop-culture image instead of reality.

[Robert Walper]

Ace, I believe we are not debating about it anymore: the issue has been resolved, and the Pentagram has been singled out for that reason.

My previous arguement was the admin staff have final say, and DS has. Ace must have missed that point.

Here, we are questioning why some people would be highly offended by Pentagram; especially when compared to things like Swastika or nuclear weapons, while, like I said, the "evil" of Pentagram is more a pop-culture image instead of reality.

Excactly. I'm supposed to think a symbol is offensive when displaying mushroom clouds guilty of terrorizing a world and killing countless innocents is ok?

[Comrade Tortoise]

No one is arguing if the pentagram is "wrong", the argument is about if we should use a religious symbol with bad implications on a small webboard where every person counts.

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

You said yourself Walper, right and wrong in moral arguments is entirely subjective. Thanks for kicking your own legs out from under yourself and missing the point of what Charon was tryng to say. Thus, numbers DO make right (because without an outside reference for comparison, such as the earth actually being round, correctness is created by group concensus), and because of this, many many atrocities across human history such as the crusades, were perfectly justified. That is what your logic brings us

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

But that is just it Walper, you dont matter.

To use your own argument, why the fuck should we tiptoe around your views of the world? Afterall, you can just leave, and not have to deal with it. I suppose I shouldstart working on a big crucifix and railroad it through, that way, you can be forced to sport christian religious symbols on your profile, and your only alternative is to suck it up, or leave.

Of course, if I were to actually do that, and sport your same level of stupidity, you would oppose it.

If I use your logic, I can never oppose anything anyone wants to do on moral grounds. I am perfectly justified in spraypainting "Death to the Hook-Nosed Red Sea Pedestrians" all over my hypothetical door, because I own the hypothetical partment complex and anyoone who doesnt like it can leave.


Or, alternatively, after people have already set up, I can mandate that everyone take part in an animal sacrifice to the blood god Gorflep, and anyone who doesnt comply will get evicted.

Fuck that. That is not a world where anyone wants to live.

[Robert Walper]

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

You said yourself Walper, right and wrong in moral arguments is entirely subjective. Thanks for kicking your own legs out from under yourself and missing the point of what Charon was tryng to say. Thus, numbers DO make right (because without an outside reference for comparison, such as the earth actually being round, correctness is created by group concensus), and because of this, many many atrocities across human history such as the crusades, were perfectly justified. That is what your logic brings us

The pentagram having negative implications is entirely subjective. It doesn't for me and many others I personally know.

But that is just it Walper, you dont matter.

Then why does the minority who are offended do?

To use your own argument, why the fuck should we tiptoe around your views of the world?

I never expect anyone to do so. I am, however, free to express my opinions, as is those who have opposite ones.

Afterall, you can just leave, and not have to deal with it. I suppose I shouldstart working on a big crucifix and railroad it through, that way, you can be forced to sport christian religious symbols on your profile, and your only alternative is to suck it up, or leave.

If it's your board, you damn well have the right. And if I don't like it and I'm unwilling to tolerate it, I will leave. Where's the problem? I'm not forced to be here. I have no need to be here. Again, where's the problem?

Are you truely too dense to grasp that this board and every account is private property?

Of course, if I were to actually do that, and sport your same level of stupidity, you would oppose it.

See above.

If I use your logic, I can never oppose anything anyone wants to do on moral grounds. I am perfectly justified in spraypainting "Death to the Hook-Nosed Red Sea Pedestrians" all over my hypothetical door, because I own the hypothetical partment complex and anyoone who doesnt like it can leave.

So long as said occupants aren't paying for the privelage of being here, and don't need to be here, you're right. Notice how members here fit both criteria.

Or, alternatively, after people have already set up, I can mandate that everyone take part in an animal sacrifice to the blood god Gorflep, and anyone who doesnt comply will get evicted.

Fuck that. That is not a world where anyone wants to live.

Another false analogy, as no one needs to be here, and participation is entirely voluntary. All members here are to follow board policies and rules.

As a staff member you should know damn well this board can be changed in any way the owner sees fit at any time. It's stated in the board policies for fuck's sake.

Being nice is optional. Being considerate to others is optional. Just because we are roaming someone's private property at their discretion doesn't give us a right to dictate what can and cannot be done, or even what should or should not be done. And being asked our opinions does not change this, anymore than asking your friends what color your car should be painted obligates you to follow their wishes.

And don't feed me your utility or merits crap again, either. Again, both those are determined by the owner...not you.

[Charon]

"Satanism=Animal and people sacrifices"

Quite simply the most irrational, incorrect, and flawed view I've ever heard. Satanic rituals don't actually exist. Animal sacrifices were done in old religions (where they'd use a lamb, pig or cow, and then use it for food anyway, which I have no problem with).

Way to misinterpret what I said jack ass. That was in referance to what I believe most people think of when they see a Pentagram, I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet not. I said nothing about that shit actually happening, I said that is what is thought to be occuring.

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

Another false analogy. We are discussing what the implication of a symbol may mean, your analogy is involving statistically proven facts. And of course I may be wrong on this issue, but considering the number of religions with problems with pagan religions, I highly doubt it.

I don't think it is fair to compare Pentagram with Swastika (unless we're talking about Buddhist Swastika), since Nazi's atrocities is real compared to pop-culture depiction of Satanism.

I am not trying to use what events are factually proven with these symbols but what the general outlook on these symbols are, and as far as I'm concerned on a public level they aren't that far away from one another.

Another false analogy, as no one needs to be here, and participation is entirely voluntary. All members here are to follow board policies and rules.

As a staff member you should know damn well this board can be changed in any way the owner sees fit at any time. It's stated in the board policies for fuck's sake.

Being nice is optional. Being considerate to others is optional. Just because we are roaming someone's private property at their discretion doesn't give us a right to dictate what can and cannot be done, or even what should or should not be done. And being asked our opinions does not change this, anymore than asking your friends what color your car should be painted obligates you to follow their wishes.

And don't feed me your utility or merits crap again, either. Again, both those are determined by the owner...not you.

Yes, the board owner has the right to do whatever he wants. But if he wants to be in the least bit successful he needs to give in to the whims of the people. Yes he has the right to change it to something that will piss a lot of people off, but doing so is quite possibly the most retarded thing to do and will soon lead to the death of the board he has set up. There is a dichotomy of power here Walper, the owner doesn't do anything to upset the people (Notice I said nothing about doing any favors to the people, so do not attempt bullshit analogies) and they stay where they can discuss issues. In return the owner gets hits on his domain and it flourishes.

[Comrade Tortoise]

And don't feed me your utility or merits crap again, either. Again, both those are determined by the owner...not you.

Bullshit Walper. The idea is open for discussion which means that utility can be dtermined by anyone. You are to fucking dense to realize that there is a difference between a course of action being advisable/moral, and forcing a property owner to abide by it. I dont know if you are this obtuse intentionally, or if you are just stupid but I am fairly certain it is a combination of both.

Are you truely too dense to grasp that this board and every account is private property?

Is your fucking skull laced with neutronium? That is not the issue. The issue of whether or not the admins have a right to do such an action is not what is being argued. It is whether or not such an idea is good or advisable, and that simple concept fails to penetrate your self regenerating wall of ignorance.

[Charon]

If I may suggest to an admin that considering the change in topic and the vitriol that this be placed in the Down Below or possibly Philosophy and Theology?

[Robert Walper]

Too bad the majority of people's interpretations (or so you say) of the pentagram does not make them right, now does it? Or do you think that because the world's majority population thought the world was flat, they were right?

Another false analogy. We are discussing what the implication of a symbol may mean, your analogy is involving statistically proven facts. And of course I may be wrong on this issue, but considering the number of religions with problems with pagan religions, I highly doubt it.

If religions have a problem with the pentagram...that's the religion's problem, not the board's. This is not a religious board last time I checked, so why is the board's appearance being dictated by religious concerns?

Yes, the board owner has the right to do whatever he wants. But if he wants to be in the least bit successful he needs to give in to the whims of the people.

And according to the poll I created, 11 to 1 people don't have a problem with a pentagram. So why are we not implementing it? Because the board owner said so. How is this unclear?

Yes he has the right to change it to something that will piss a lot of people off, but doing so is quite possibly the most retarded thing to do and will soon lead to the death of the board he has set up.

Only if the change offends a majority of the board population. Again, I refer you to the poll on the symbol in question.

There is a dichotomy of power here Walper, the owner doesn't do anything to upset the people (Notice I said nothing about doing any favors to the people, so do not attempt bullshit analogies) and they stay where they can discuss issues. In return the owner gets hits on his domain and it flourishes.

And where does walking on egg shells around religious/ignorant perceptions factor in? It's one thing to not care about other's personal beliefs or religions. Quite another to have them dictating your own board's appearance when you don't subscribe to them.

[Charon]

If religions have a problem with the pentagram...that's the religion's problem, not the board's. This is not a religious board last time I checked, so why is the board's appearance being dictated by religious concerns?

And with that you shoot down your own arguement with what I started this with. This is not a religious board therefore it's appearance should not imply religiousness.

And according to the poll I created, 11 to 1 people don't have a problem with a pentagram. So why are we not implementing it? Because the board owner said so. How is this unclear?

Wow, I wonder how I knew where THAT thread was gonna go. For one, thank you thank you thank you for not being a retard and attempting to use that evidence on a general scale. For two, you're still stupid and know nothing of politics, congratulations they are not offended this does not mean that they want a pentagram. When declaring policy you want to go with what is not going to piss people off. The pentagram pisses people off therefore it is unusable

Only if the change offends a majority of the board population. Again, I refer you to the poll on the symbol in question.

However it offends enough people and could prehaps keep this board from expanding in a direction we would like.

And where does walking on egg shells around religious/ignorant perceptions factor in? It's one thing to not care about other's personal beliefs or religions. Quite another to have them dictating your own board's appearance when you don't subscribe to them.

I love how you so wonderfully tie in that you think religious perceptions are immediately ignorant. But anyway, they are not dictating the board's fucking appearance. Those that have gone on record as disliking having the pentagram said that they did not want to have it specifically put on THEM. Which we are bound to follow. They had no problem if others had the pentagram. My issues have been stated before as disliking the pentagram because of it's direct religious intent on a non-religion based board.

[Comrade Tortoise]

And according to the poll I created, 11 to 1 people don't have a problem with a pentagram. So why are we not implementing it? Because the board owner said so. How is this unclear?

Thank you very much

Walper, if you are going to be a fucking moron, at least try to be an intellectually honest fucking moron.

[Narsil]

And according to the poll I created, 11 to 1 people don't have a problem with a pentagram. So why are we not implementing it? Because the board owner said so. How is this unclear?

I find pentagram 'hatred' to be irrational and idiotic, true...

But there's always the fact that if I want to have a pentagram associated with me, I can use it as an Avatar.

[Robert Walper]

If religions have a problem with the pentagram...that's the religion's problem, not the board's. This is not a religious board last time I checked, so why is the board's appearance being dictated by religious concerns?

And with that you shoot down your own arguement with what I started this with. This is not a religious board therefore it's appearance should not imply religiousness.

I guess there lies our disagreement. I do not see the pentagram as a religious symbol, and therefore cannot understand a person's objections to it on a religious basis.

And according to the poll I created, 11 to 1 people don't have a problem with a pentagram. So why are we not implementing it? Because the board owner said so. How is this unclear?

Wow, I wonder how I knew where THAT thread was gonna go. For one, thank you thank you thank you for not being a retard and attempting to use that evidence on a general scale. For two, you're still stupid and know nothing of politics, congratulations they are not offended this does not mean that they want a pentagram.

Nobody requested stars either, they still got them. Nobody complained about them.

When declaring policy you want to go with what is not going to piss people off. The pentagram pisses people off therefore it is unusable

So the majority of people have no issue with the symbol, yet it pisses them off if used as just a standard decoration on the board. Am I the only one seeing a contradiction here?

Only if the change offends a majority of the board population. Again, I refer you to the poll on the symbol in question.

However it offends enough people and could prehaps keep this board from expanding in a direction we would like.

You mean making people leave because they have no problem with the symbol itself, but they get pissed off if it's a standard symbol of user accounts?

To use an analogy, this is like saying: "I have no problem with green paint, but I do have a problem if you paint your house green."

And where does walking on egg shells around religious/ignorant perceptions factor in? It's one thing to not care about other's personal beliefs or religions. Quite another to have them dictating your own board's appearance when you don't subscribe to them.

I love how you so wonderfully tie in that you think religious perceptions are immediately ignorant.

I'm saying there's no problem with the pentagram. You're pointing out I have a problem with religion (I don't like or subscribe to it). You say the pentagram has religious tones to it and that's it's problem. Do you see the flaw in your reasoning?

But anyway, they are not dictating the board's fucking appearance. Those that have gone on record as disliking having the pentagram said that they did not want to have it specifically put on THEM. Which we are bound to follow. They had no problem if others had the pentagram. My issues have been stated before as disliking the pentagram because of it's direct religious intent on a non-religion based board.

Considering I submitted the pentagram, and you pointed out I'm non religious, clearly the symbol has no religious intent.

So, any other valid arguement against it then?

[Ra]

Guys, guys, guys, this discussion is only going to get more fervered as time goes by. Let's suffice it to say that some people are OK with Pentagrams, some are not, and others don't like religious icons of any kind used for representing the Board. How about we drop this, accept that other people have differing opinions, and move on before we have another flamefest?

[Batman]

How about we let this discussion continue as long as it stays moderately civilized since everybody seems to agree 'I refuse to put up with the trouble so no presumably religious icons' is a perfectly valid response from the administration?
Assuming it's going to stay moderately civilized for any length of time, of course. I have been away a while.