Silly Weapons (or technology) of Sci-Fi

[Batman]

And why in Valen's name should the ship fly apart the moment it touches an asteroid?

Structurally, they're not the most stable of vessels. A very crappy design which looks, and probably is, very, very flimsy and impractical.

You have canon numbers on the structural strength of Starfleet materials? DO present them.

[Cynical Cat]

Btech game ranges don't represent in universe range according to the more recent game materials, which deals with one of Btechs more annoying weapon problems.

[Batman]

Btech game ranges don't represent in universe range according to the more recent game materials, which deals with one of Btechs more annoying weapon problems.

In that case they still don't because the later game materials are still game ranges.

[Hotfoot]

Btech game ranges don't represent in universe range according to the more recent game materials, which deals with one of Btechs more annoying weapon problems.

One of a legion of problems, unfortunately. A full solution will not present itself unless they rewrite a huge amount of material which will no doubt alienate fans (many of whom seem to think that the way things are now is "realistic"), and thus be a bad move, monetarily speaking.

Speaking of crazy technologies and Battletech: Hey, how about that armor? Strong enough to withstand a Merkava's main weapon without so much as a scratch, but weak enough to fall to repeated 20mm cannon fire.
:Joshua:

[Narsil]

And why in Valen's name should the ship fly apart the moment it touches an asteroid?

Structurally, they're not the most stable of vessels. A very crappy design which looks, and probably is, very, very flimsy and impractical.

You have canon numbers on the structural strength of Starfleet materials? DO present them.

You honestly mean to suggest that this is a structurally sound design? Seriously? I mean, just look at it, it's not reinforced properly, it's too... wide, taking up too much space but not enough actual bulk.

It's not the materials in question, bats, it's the design.

[Cynical Cat]

In that case they still don't because the later game materials are still game ranges.

Wrong, because its mentioned in the latter game materials that these are just game play conventions, just as 40K bolters really don't have ranges of less than 100 meters despite their crappy table top range. Stop being a dipshit in my forum.

And yes, Battletech still has a wide variety of problems we could talk about endlessly. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy one of them being fixed.

[Hotfoot]

Very true. Slightly off topic, I've given serious thought to revising battletech so that it retained much of the original spirit, but got a swift kick in the ass from my buddy Physics. Maybe we could make a list over in another section of things to fix if you wanted to get into a homebrew?

[Batman]

You honestly mean to suggest that this is a structurally sound design?

As it survived everything thrown at it throughout three seasons worth of harm, yes.

Seriously? I mean, just look at it, it's not reinforced properly,

Why would it NEED to be reinforced?

it's too... wide, taking up too much space but not enough actual bulk.

As per which benchmark? And what has any of this to do with the design being structurally unsound as opposed to inefficient?

It's not the materials in question, bats, it's the design.

Bullshit. The materials are canonically up to supporting the design therefore it's structurally sound.

[Stofsk]

With Star Trek, there are different issues vis a vis penetration. It's established time and again that hull integrity isn't maintained by structural strength, but rather by integrated force fields. Furthermore, phasers are supposed to have adjustable intensity, and given the number of shootouts Starfleet personnel get into around loading areas, I'd figure that somebody would recommend a 'blow through crate' setting.

This wasn't a problem in TOS, where Phasers could disintegrate those crates.

Once again, TOS did it first and did it right.

Oh yeah, and any science fiction series that has ship design which includes a prominent, easily-targeted bridge. Star Trek and Star Wars both fall into that category.

So does B5. C&C is right below the central docking tunnel. We saw in "Severed Dreams" a couple of Thunderbolts make a run for it, but it was guarded by some quad cannon.

Of course, why they (meaning Clark's forces) didn't just target all weapons onto that point beats the hell out of me.

The White Star bridge is also exposed. I'm not sure where exactly the bridge of an Omega is, but given the stupid design in the Omegas it has to be at the ends of the rotating sections. Again, why they don't target the rotating sections is a mystery (although at the start of "Severed Dreams" Major Ryan is fleeing a Hyperion class cruiser, which scores a hit on the rotating section - this is presumably where General What's-his-name was when he was killed).

Anyway to Star Wars' credit, should the shields go down the ship has a survival expectancy of seconds if you're generous, with the amount of firepower casually being thrown about in that universe. It's the same with Star Trek, if the shields go down you're fucked anyway it doesn't matter where the bridge is. (see "Wrath of Kahn" how important shields are to Star Trek combat)

In Battlestar Galactica the ship's bridge and sickbay are in the centre of the ship where presumably it is far better armoured and protected. However, BSG is a gritty, 'realistic' sci-fi show and it doesn't use imagined technology like shields or forcefields.

However, realistically it doesn't matter where you put the bridge or command ops centre, because you're going to use nukes in these fights - a proximity hit by one nuke ought to be more than enough to finish any ship. Putting the bridge on the top of the vessel isn't necessary and it would be better to bury it deep and layer some armour to protect against ionising radiation - but the object would be don't get hit at all.

[Stofsk]

You honestly mean to suggest that this is a structurally sound design?

The points of failure are the support struts for the nacelles, yet they serve the purpose of keeping the warp drives away from the crew areas. Given warp drives use antimatter for fuel, this is prudent. In an emergency explosive bolts could separate the nacelles from the ship. From a maintenance perspective you could pull into any starbase and take prefab nacelle units and install them.

TOS made sure to show us all spacefaring races used the same engine-nacelle design. The Klingon D7 and the Romulan Bird of Prey stand out. The only ship which didn't fit here was the Klingon Bird of Prey, and the Tholian ship from "The Tholian Web". The latter gets a free ride though, since the Tholians are completely different to Humanoids in terms of biology that they probably don't have to worry about radiation from warp engines. The Klingon Bird of Prey could land on a planet, so they were designed with aerodynamics taken into account.

Seriously? I mean, just look at it, it's not reinforced properly, it's too... wide, taking up too much space but not enough actual bulk.

What are you talking about?

As for the design, cylinders and saucers are sound designs for spacecraft, as are wedges, cones, spheres and cubes. Probably the worst design I can think of for a spaceship was the Omega from B5. It's boxy - so it's more like a rectangular cube than anything else - but that goddamn rotating section drives me up the wall.

[Comrade Tortoise]

As for the design, cylinders and saucers are sound designs for spacecraft, as are wedges, cones, spheres and cubes. Probably the worst design I can think of for a spaceship was the Omega from B5. It's boxy - so it's more like a rectangular cube than anything else - but that goddamn rotating section drives me up the wall.

Oh gods yes. WHy it doesnt shake itself apart when hit with heavy weapons is beyond me. Now, the hyperion and the Nova, those are sound EA ships... but... the Omega? good god. Not to mention the massive blind spot in heavy weapon coverage caused by that rotating section...

Of course, why they (meaning Clark's forces) didn't just target all weapons onto that point beats the hell out of me.

Acceleration. The jumpgate they came through was situated broadside to the station. And Omegas dont accelerate very fast. They couldnt get into a position where they could accuratly fire on it, and had to deal with two other Omegas, in addition to the station's fighters and defensive weaponry. In order to be able to get to that spot, they would have had to turn themselves broadside to the station and both other Omega's, increasing their target profile, and eliminating their ability to target their heavy weapons on the enemy ships. It would have been suicide.

As it stands, B5 was hurting just from the fighters. Presumably they were able to intercept incoming fire from the Omegas and the Hyperions, which we can only assume were made short work of.

[Stofsk]

The Hyperion has the benefit of actually fitting in with B5 in terms of colouring scheme, which is why I love it. The Nova is also excellent because it is the same fucking thing as the Omega but it doesn't have those rotating sections. Both the Nova and Hyperion are solid, boxy designs that look like they can fight and sustain damage.

The Omega looks like shit, both from an aesthetic point of view and a practical one as well. The rotating section only provides gravity at the bottom, everywhere else has low to neglible gravity. Furthermore when we see the insides of the Omega they are woefully ill-prepared for zero gee. During the intro battle in "Severed Dreams" Ryan's 2IC warned how another hit amidships and the ship's rotating section might fail and they'd be in zero-gee. Does this cause alarm bells to sound off? Were they strapped into acceleration couches? Hell no, they were standing and walking around none the wiser.

This is only repeated in season four with the Earth Civil War when it seems to be a function of the design to have everybody stand as they operate consoles.

[Hedgecore]

How about Star Wars: Clone Wars, animated series, season 1: [super awesome] Mace Windu episode.

A giant freaking hovering ship with a huge cylinder inside it that it raises and then slams down into the ground. That's all it does. But its freaking huge. If anyone has seen that episode, you'll know what i'm talking about. Ridiculous.

That aside, all the Windu action was sweet.

[Dark Silver]

the Seismic tank!

Man that was goofey...."we're just gonna float around and groundpound this planet till all the hummies go bye bye!"

Then Mace does up and lightsabers it....

[Cynical Cat]

Very true. Slightly off topic, I've given serious thought to revising battletech so that it retained much of the original spirit, but got a swift kick in the ass from my buddy Physics. Maybe we could make a list over in another section of things to fix if you wanted to get into a homebrew?

I'll start on in Out of Character.

[Narsil]

You honestly mean to suggest that this is a structurally sound design?

As it survived everything thrown at it throughout three seasons worth of harm, yes.

Via shields, and structural integrity fields. Not its own structural stability.

Seriously? I mean, just look at it, it's not reinforced properly,

Why would it NEED to be reinforced?

Because it's the logical thing to do.

it's too... wide, taking up too much space but not enough actual bulk.

As per which benchmark? And what has any of this to do with the design being structurally unsound as opposed to inefficient?

... Big targetable engines that can break off, a 'neck' between the engineering sections and the main hull... Both inefficient and structurally unsound.

It's not the materials in question, bats, it's the design.

Bullshit. The materials are canonically up to supporting the design therefore it's structurally sound.

... You don't build a bridge with one or two long poles supporting it, bats. There is a reason for that. No matter how tough the materials are, it's not as good as proper reinforcement.

I'm not the most smart of people, but even I know that you don't attach two faster-than-light engines to a ship by glorified poles. And don't give me the 'radiation' crap, as I'm sure that by the 23rd Century, they'll have heard of radiation shielding.

[Dark Silver]

Narsil, I'm sure even YOU are aware of the fact that no Radiation Shielding is perfect, some radiation will seep through.

Hell, considering the power those engines require, I'm pretty sure those engines require a assload of radiation shielding (which is more than likely already in there). But...to be honest? Why the FUCK would you want to be next to those things even with radiation shielding? It makes more sense to have them as far away as possible, while still connected to the ship. Especially if those engines have a chance to go critical, it'd be easier to jettison them out in the current configu.