Prison Planets

[Josh]

I would've figured it's obvious no real military power would want a bunch of criminals as a military force.

It would depend on the nature of the prisoners in question. If they're standard-issue scum, then they have no particular value. If they're politicals, on the other hand, they could be a real boon.

[Robert Walper]

Meanwhile, consider: if you're putting people in space stations anyway, and stations hold much smaller groups of people, why not just have each star system put their criminals in a space station and let everyone else live on the planets?

Depending on the specific planets in question, living on the station could be far more preferable.

Why consolodate all the criminals onto one world with virtually no supervision?

The same reason we currently consolidate criminals into prison buidings. To keep them out of the way and out of general society. Not needing constant and intsense supervision is a step towards efficiency...the primary point of the OP.

Is there no chance for parole?

I don't see why there couldn't be.

No laws against cruel and unusual punishment?

If you're referring to the fact of prisoner on prisoner brutality, that happens nowadays. Considering a prison planet would allow individuals to keep their distance from others if need be, doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

And ultimately, I'm not too concerned about prisoner on prisoner brutality. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good motive to stay out of prison in the first place. What better way to drive the point home? "Live in society by it's laws and rules, or you can live in one without any. Your choice."

[Robert Walper]

I would've figured it's obvious no real military power would want a bunch of criminals as a military force.

It would depend on the nature of the prisoners in question. If they're standard-issue scum, then they have no particular value. If they're politicals, on the other hand, they could be a real boon.

An interesting point. However, I've never suggested said prison world(s) would be completely unsupervised. You could have military patrols routinely checking the planet, giving it a "once over" kind of approach. And naturally, there has to be some type of security system in place. As I've suggested, a planetary shield would keep inmates in and potential 'rescuers' out. Throw in a sensor network that alerts authorities on any suspicious activities in the area, and you have a pretty secure system.

[Hotfoot]

1. If you make it so the planet is completely barren, you're going to need constant supply drops. This will also require guards on the surface to ensure that everyone gets their share, and that nobody is withheld food. This means there is potential for riots killing guards and allowing prisoners to escape during a supply drop when the shields are down.
2. How much do these shields block? Do they reduce the overall power of incoming sunlight? If so, that could make living conditions even worse, to the point where the planet is no longer reasonably livable.
3. If the planet can support farms, crops, harvests and the like, in order to feed the inmates, who runs these farms? Other inmates? Guards? Where do they get the tools in order to plow the fields, fertelize the ground, and so on?
4. What is to stop them from forming their own industrialized society, with the potential to reach space on their own? Orbital bombardment of factories? Guard invasions? Unlike real prisons, guards aren't there to watch the social structure and keep it from getting out of hand, according to the current model. You can't throw an instigator in solitary for organizing something, in fact, you have no direct control for behavior modification at all.

The "dump them and forget them" model does not serve a serious purpose. Maybe if you make the argument that all the prisoners of such a planet are murderers, but that's simply not going to be the case. The vast majority of criminals are in jail for much lesser crimes. When their sentence is up, how will you pull them out? Go city to city, calling out his prisoner identification number? I can see it now..."I'm Spartacus!"

What about rehabilitation? If you're dumping these people on a planet, you're not seriously doing anything that would make them better members of society. You're not teaching them any relevant skills that would be useful in a high-tech interstellar society. In fact, you're just endangering them for a percieved sense of ease in dealing with the growing prison population.

Endangering? Damn right. What do you get when you throw in murderers, drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, petty thieves, white-collar criminals, and a few wrongfully accused on the same planet with no way of keeping them seperate.

Why, good golly gosh, it's a veritable killing field! Assuming low-level gang mentality control, it's nonstop wars and killing, along with rape, and unless you've got a seperate planet for male and female prisoners, well, it's only going to get worse.

Eventually, that gang mentality will hike itself up to warlord. Prisoners will fight over control of women and "smart" prisoners, who will be used in making weapons, defenses, and presumably farms if at all possible. I can already see a scenario where a group of guards get jumped in the night on a patrol or mission to break up a major inmate stronghold, and all of a sudden prisoners getting guard weapons. Uh-oh, spagetti-o's.

Even if the prisoners don't get off world, anything short of a full military invasion would almost certainly fail to restore order, and all that's being done is shoving humanity's worst aspects into a little pocket so they can fester and grow to their heart's content.

[Hotfoot]

Depending on the specific planets in question, living on the station could be far more preferable.

If the planet is difficult to live on, it will be difficult to supply prisoners with the means to live. Think of the distribution problems we had in Somalia.

The same reason we currently consolidate criminals into prison buidings. To keep them out of the way and out of general society. Not needing constant and intsense supervision is a step towards efficiency...the primary point of the OP.

The problem is that the example falls on its face when you consider that there isn't one giant federal/international prison where we send ALL of our criminals. We've got low security prisons, medium security prisons, high security prisons, maximum security prisons, women's prisons, and so on. By making a prison planet, you're balling all of those into one general prison that has all the makings of a disaster on it, one way or another.

I don't see why there couldn't be.

How are you going to reasonably extract someone? What measures are being made to prevent this person from being murdered prior to his parole?

If you're referring to the fact of prisoner on prisoner brutality, that happens nowadays. Considering a prison planet would allow individuals to keep their distance from others if need be, doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Yes. You can run. Until you run into another group of prisoners. No, this is a BAD IDEA. You seriously mean to tell me that one man on the run on a barren world can actually survive for very long? I'm calling bullshit on that. Even if this guy was special fucking forces before he went to jail, he can't live off the land, it's barren. Which means he's got to go where everyone else goes to get food and water. Which means the people who want to kill him are going to find him and there are most likely not going to be guards to break up the fight like there are in modern jails.

And ultimately, I'm not too concerned about prisoner on prisoner brutality. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good motive to stay out of prison in the first place. What better way to drive the point home? "Live in society by it's laws and rules, or you can live in one without any. Your choice."

So petty theft is giving the death penalty in your world? Nice.

[Robert Walper]

1. If you make it so the planet is completely barren, you're going to need constant supply drops.

If the planet is completely barren, true enough.

This will also require guards on the surface to ensure that everyone gets their share, and that nobody is withheld food.

Not true. Just make the drops regular, high volume packages spread out over a large area. Prisoners get their own food. So long as there is enough to go around and it's available everywhere, there shouldn't be a problem food wise. Even the most insane criminal (or group of them) can't waste their time chasing down every one of thousands of food packages. And why would they even bother? Plenty to go around.

This means there is potential for riots killing guards and allowing prisoners to escape during a supply drop when the shields are down.

Problem solved above.

2. How much do these shields block? Do they reduce the overall power of incoming sunlight? If so, that could make living conditions even worse, to the point where the planet is no longer reasonably livable.

Even if the planet's sunlight intake is significantly reduced, I fail to see how that's an issue on a already barren planet.

3. If the planet can support farms, crops, harvests and the like, in order to feed the inmates, who runs these farms? Other inmates? Guards? Where do they get the tools in order to plow the fields, fertelize the ground, and so on?

Food drops as illustrated above.

4. What is to stop them from forming their own industrialized society, with the potential to reach space on their own? Orbital bombardment of factories? Guard invasions? Unlike real prisons, guards aren't there to watch the social structure and keep it from getting out of hand, according to the current model. You can't throw an instigator in solitary for organizing something, in fact, you have no direct control for behavior modification at all.

Seeing as it took cooperative (ie: generally not a criminal population) humans thousands of years to establish our current civilization on a resource rich planet, I'd assume the answer to this question is pretty bloodly obvious.

The "dump them and forget them" model does not serve a serious purpose. Maybe if you make the argument that all the prisoners of such a planet are murderers, but that's simply not going to be the case. The vast majority of criminals are in jail for much lesser crimes. When their sentence is up, how will you pull them out? Go city to city, calling out his prisoner identification number? I can see it now..."I'm Spartacus!"

Identification transmitter that could be something as small as a internal implant to wristwatch size.

What about rehabilitation? If you're dumping these people on a planet, you're not seriously doing anything that would make them better members of society. You're not teaching them any relevant skills that would be useful in a high-tech interstellar society. In fact, you're just endangering them for a percieved sense of ease in dealing with the growing prison population.

Endangering? Damn right. What do you get when you throw in murderers, drug dealers, rapists, child molesters, petty thieves, white-collar criminals, and a few wrongfully accused on the same planet with no way of keeping them seperate.

Why, good golly gosh, it's a veritable killing field! Assuming low-level gang mentality control, it's nonstop wars and killing, along with rape, and unless you've got a seperate planet for male and female prisoners, well, it's only going to get worse.

Eventually, that gang mentality will hike itself up to warlord. Prisoners will fight over control of women and "smart" prisoners, who will be used in making weapons, defenses, and presumably farms if at all possible. I can already see a scenario where a group of guards get jumped in the night on a patrol or mission to break up a major inmate stronghold, and all of a sudden prisoners getting guard weapons. Uh-oh, spagetti-o's.

Guards are not needed as illustrated above.

Even if the prisoners don't get off world, anything short of a full military invasion would almost certainly fail to restore order, and all that's being done is shoving humanity's worst aspects into a little pocket so they can fester and grow to their heart's content.

It sounds like this prison world will be one serious shithole to be dumped in.

No problem here, since that's the idea.

[Hotfoot]

Not true. Just make the drops regular, high volume packages spread out over a large area. Prisoners get their own food. So long as there is enough to go around and it's available everywhere, there shouldn't be a problem food wise. Even the most insane criminal (or group of them) can't waste their time chasing down every one of thousands of food packages. And why would they even bother? Plenty to go around.

What are you smoking? You're putting criminals on a planet and then you're telling me they are going to ensure that everyone gets treated equally? Bullshit. We are going to see ganglords rise up and take over shipments, forcing others to do what they tell them to in order to get food. Do you know what happened in Somalia, Walper? Maybe see Black Hawk Down, paying attention to the parts that didn't involve blood and gore? That's a disaster waiting to happen as people starve to death on your planets.

Problem solved above.

By killing prisoners through starvation. Why don't you just simplify the process? Death penalty to anyone caught breaking the law? It's more humane that way.

Even if the planet's sunlight intake is significantly reduced, I fail to see how that's an issue on a already barren planet.

Heat. Now you're going to be freezing the prisoners to death as WELL as starving half the population.

Food drops as illustrated above.

Patently stupid idea as illustrated above.

Seeing as it took cooperative (ie: generally not a criminal population) humans thousands of years to establish our current civilization on a resource rich planet, I'd assume the answer to this question is pretty bloodly obvious.

Except that there's a massive difference. Criminals will recognize the need for intelligent people, so while there is going to be a sort of Feudal society in place, science won't be opressed, it would be encouraged. Might take a while, but they're getting plenty of materials from orbit that are capable of spaceflight in your supply drops. So they've got their hulls, after that, all they need is fuel.

Identification transmitter that could be something as small as a internal implant to wristwatch size.

Implants can be damaged/removed and wristwatches can as well. It doesn't change the fact that you're sending a reclamation team down to a hostile zone in a spacecraft capable of escape, unless you've got teleporters. Never mind that the guy could be dead by this point. What if someone tampers with the devices? There's no effort being made to stop tampering once they're on the planet, after all.

Guards are not needed as illustrated above.

Still doesn't address the fact that this amounts to cruel and unusual, especially for female prisoners, jackass.

It sounds like this prison world will be one serious shithole to be dumped in.

No problem here, since that's the idea.

Except the only way for it to be needed is if you dump all of your prisoners there, which is a monumentally stupid idea.

[Robert Walper]

Depending on the specific planets in question, living on the station could be far more preferable.

If the planet is difficult to live on, it will be difficult to supply prisoners with the means to live. Think of the distribution problems we had in Somalia.

I'm not familiar with that example, although I think there is a flaw in comparing it to a planetary example with as yet undefined technological means at the disposal of said civilization.

The problem is that the example falls on its face when you consider that there isn't one giant federal/international prison where we send ALL of our criminals. We've got low security prisons, medium security prisons, high security prisons, maximum security prisons, women's prisons, and so on. By making a prison planet, you're balling all of those into one general prison that has all the makings of a disaster on it, one way or another.

I don't think there a reason to dismiss handling minor crimes through other means.

But as to the rest of the bunch, I still don't see a problem with the system. Claiming it's a "disaster in the making" concerns the criminals point of view. The concept is a brutal enviroment where serious offenders are sentenced. If they don't like it...don't commit the crime.

How are you going to reasonably extract someone?

Armed forces going in and doing so, with full authority to use deadly force in protecting themselves primarily, and their subject of extraction second.

What measures are being made to prevent this person from being murdered prior to his parole?

None. If you're sentenced to the planet, potentially being killed doesn't bother me.

If you're referring to the fact of prisoner on prisoner brutality, that happens nowadays. Considering a prison planet would allow individuals to keep their distance from others if need be, doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

Yes. You can run. Until you run into another group of prisoners. No, this is a BAD IDEA. You seriously mean to tell me that one man on the run on a barren world can actually survive for very long? I'm calling bullshit on that. Even if this guy was special fucking forces before he went to jail, he can't live off the land, it's barren. Which means he's got to go where everyone else goes to get food and water. Which means the people who want to kill him are going to find him and there are most likely not going to be guards to break up the fight like there are in modern jails.

Naturally people will end up sticking together in groups based upon certain criteria. Protection, similiar traits, etc. No one is disputing this is going to be a very dangerous enviroment and place to live. That's the point.

And ultimately, I'm not too concerned about prisoner on prisoner brutality. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good motive to stay out of prison in the first place. What better way to drive the point home? "Live in society by it's laws and rules, or you can live in one without any. Your choice."

So petty theft is giving the death penalty in your world? Nice.

Petty theft isn't something I'd sentence someone to this planet for. As I said, I don't see a problem with having systems in place to deal with minor offences.

[Hotfoot]

I'm not familiar with that example, although I think there is a flaw in comparing it to a planetary example with as yet undefined technological means at the disposal of said civilization.

People in Somalia were starving. UN sent food in to feed everyone. As soon as the shipments came in, they were grabbed by warlords, given to their troops, and the average Somalian couldn't do shit about it. I don't think I have to mention that a lot of people died horribly.

I don't think there a reason to dismiss handling minor crimes through other means.

Bullshit. There's only so much you can issue citations for. Where you going to put DUI's? Burgalers? Pickpockets? Scam artists? Drug dealers? Drug users? Smugglers? Embezzlers? The list goes on. There are a huge number of offences that people are jailed for that are not rape and murder, despite what CSI tells you.

But as to the rest of the bunch, I still don't see a problem with the system. Claiming it's a "disaster in the making" concerns the criminals point of view. The concept is a brutal enviroment where serious offenders are sentenced. If they don't like it...don't commit the crime.

Not serious offenders: All offenders. The entire point to this is you're creating a planet to send pretty much all of your criminals to.

Armed forces going in and doing so, with full authority to use deadly force in protecting themselves primarily, and their subject of extraction second.

Which is SO much more convenient than, say, calling a prisoner out of his jail cell.

None. If you're sentenced to the planet, potentially being killed doesn't bother me.

Wow. Nice, Walper, real nice. Glad to know you're not in any sort of position of authority on the matter. What you're proposing is worse than some Communist jails.

Naturally people will end up sticking together in groups based upon certain criteria. Protection, similiar traits, etc. No one is disputing this is going to be a very dangerous enviroment and place to live. That's the point.

And you're an idiot for arguing it's justifiable.

Petty theft isn't something I'd sentence someone to this planet for. As I said, I don't see a problem with having systems in place to deal with minor offences.

Okay smart guy, you've just talked yourself into a corner. Provide information that rape and murder (or other major violent crimes) are the most prevalent crimes for existing prison populations. Otherwise, show me a civilization size which would produce enough rapists and murderers to warrant a planetary population.

[Robert Walper]

Not true. Just make the drops regular, high volume packages spread out over a large area. Prisoners get their own food. So long as there is enough to go around and it's available everywhere, there shouldn't be a problem food wise. Even the most insane criminal (or group of them) can't waste their time chasing down every one of thousands of food packages. And why would they even bother? Plenty to go around.

What are you smoking? You're putting criminals on a planet and then you're telling me they are going to ensure that everyone gets treated equally? Bullshit.

No, it's not a matter of anyone ensuring that anyone else gets their food. That's up to every individual to get their own.

We are going to see ganglords rise up and take over shipments, forcing others to do what they tell them to in order to get food.

Seeing as the individuals concerned will all equally have the ability to acquire said food, how do these "ganglords" convince anyone to do something in the first place?

Do you know what happened in Somalia, Walper? Maybe see Black Hawk Down, paying attention to the parts that didn't involve blood and gore? That's a disaster waiting to happen as people starve to death on your planets.

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the example. So referencing it will not get you anywhere.

Problem solved above.

By killing prisoners through starvation. Why don't you just simplify the process? Death penalty to anyone caught breaking the law? It's more humane that way.

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea for the more serious crimes. Although it would be slightly more complicated than simply "guilty=death". But that's off topic.

Even if the planet's sunlight intake is significantly reduced, I fail to see how that's an issue on a already barren planet.

Heat. Now you're going to be freezing the prisoners to death as WELL as starving half the population.

Depends how the shield works and if this is even an issue. Furthermore it depends upon the planet's attributes. It could be a hotter planet where such reduction actually reduces it to a more comfortable temperature.

Seeing as it took cooperative (ie: generally not a criminal population) humans thousands of years to establish our current civilization on a resource rich planet, I'd assume the answer to this question is pretty bloodly obvious.

Except that there's a massive difference. Criminals will recognize the need for intelligent people, so while there is going to be a sort of Feudal society in place, science won't be opressed, it would be encouraged.

Barren planet, remember?

Might take a while, but they're getting plenty of materials from orbit that are capable of spaceflight in your supply drops. So they've got their hulls, after that, all they need is fuel.

Food packing crates counts as material required to achieve spaceflight?

Identification transmitter that could be something as small as a internal implant to wristwatch size.

Implants can be damaged/removed and wristwatches can as well.

True. So if your eligible for parole, better keeps tabs on that.

It doesn't change the fact that you're sending a reclamation team down to a hostile zone in a spacecraft capable of escape, unless you've got teleporters.

Hence, my "heavily armed readily applying deadly force" team suggestion. It would be the in the best interests of any individuals to stay the hell out of the way of said landing party.

Never mind that the guy could be dead by this point.

Tough luck.

What if someone tampers with the devices? There's no effort being made to stop tampering once they're on the planet, after all.

If they screw with their device, they hurt no one but themselves. If someone else screws with their tampering device...well, just another reason to not want to go to said planet.

Guards are not needed as illustrated above.

Still doesn't address the fact that this amounts to cruel and unusual, especially for female prisoners, jackass.

This prison planet is harsh and brutal in concept. I never disputed that.

It sounds like this prison world will be one serious shithole to be dumped in.

No problem here, since that's the idea.

Except the only way for it to be needed is if you dump all of your prisoners there, which is a monumentally stupid idea.

That's like saying maximum security prisons would only be needed if you dump all prisoners there.

[frigidmagi]

Seeing as the individuals concerned will all equally have the ability to acquire said food, how do these "ganglords" convince anyone to do something in the first place?

No Walper if history has shown us anything it's that they won't have the equal ability to acquire food if left on their own. The bigger, stronger guys will get first dibs if nothing else.

Also you forget that in this situation food would be power, convince a group of guys that all of ya would be better off (we'll get bigger shares of food, people working for us, more women, etc, etc) if they banded togather to control access to the food and you're a ganglord. This isn't something Hotfoot yanked out his ass, it's happened and Solimila is just the most recent overt example.

[Comrade Tortoise]

If the planet is completely barren, true enough.

Even a barren planet has to be habitable, and considering thef act that the population density on this planet will necessarily have to be lower than a main world, it will require more of them. If the planet is as barren as you say it is, you may very well need oxygen artificially pumped in.

Also, there are no barren planets. They are made from iron, carbon and silica. All of which is highly valuable if it is to inhospitable to put your actual population.

Not true. Just make the drops regular, high volume packages spread out over a large area. Prisoners get their own food. So long as there is enough to go around and it's available everywhere, there shouldn't be a problem food wise. Even the most insane criminal (or group of them) can't waste their time chasing down every one of thousands of food packages. And why would they even bother? Plenty to go around.

When resources are as tight as they would be on that planet, and with no control, that planet will decend into anarchy. No amount of supply will stop that. The strong will form gangs and horde food, extorting the other criminals for everything from sex, to other services. Non-violnt criminals will either become violent, or starve.

Criminals are not decent people Walper, they will not work together and if they do, they will fight among other groups.

Problem solved above.

lets use concentration camps while we are atit. it is much quicker. Oh, I know, make the process much cheaper by shipping the prisoners in giant freighters, and blow all the airlocks.

Food drops as illustrated above.

WOuldnt work

Also, if it cant support crops, then it probably wont support human life.

Even if the planet's sunlight intake is significantly reduced, I fail to see how that's an issue on a already barren planet.

A shielding system that would actually work would have to be at least opaque. In order to do things liek block out visible light lasers and the like.

You plannoing on heating the planet too Walper?

Seeing as it took cooperative (ie: generally not a criminal population) humans thousands of years to establish our current civilization on a resource rich planet, I'd assume the answer to this question is pretty bloodly obvious.

They had to start from scratch. These prisoners wont.

And there are no barren planets. unles syou are putting them on a gas giant, there are going to be enough metals and silicates to mine and construct ship hulls.

Identification transmitter that could be something as small as a internal implant to wristwatch size.

And you expect a prisoner to be able to go back into society? After living on a prison planet, being sold as a sex slave for the equiavelent of a pack of cigarettes? What about the non-bviolent offenders who become violent after living in that society?

You need to lay off the drugs Walper.

Guards are not needed as illustrated above.

Good job dodging the point, idiot.

No problem here, since that's the idea.

What about non-violent offenders.

Shit man, just space them all. it would be more cost-effective if that is what you are going for.

Depending on the specific planets in question, living on the station could be far more preferable.

And trillios of small stations are ven more of an economic net drain and technical nightmare than using planets.

If you're referring to the fact of prisoner on prisoner brutality, that happens nowadays. Considering a prison planet would allow individuals to keep their distance from others if need be, doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

No moron, Putting them on a freezing (due to lack of sun) iceball with no food and massive rape-gangs.

It would depend on the nature of the prisoners in question. If they're standard-issue scum, then they have no particular value. If they're politicals, on the other hand, they could be a real boon.

People with a grudge can be galvanized into effective first wave troops.

Like I said, pick some worthless mudball planet that has little or no value.

No such thing. If it is even marginally habitable. it cn be used for food production if nothing else.

How the fuck is food being produced for a civilization which requires prison worlds? Each person requires TONS of food per year. And a wide variety. From fruits to grains to cattle and dairy. You would have a cow population that is an order of magnitude larger than your human poplation, and they will require planets to live on.

Also note, that aprison world is going to have a much lower population limit than on a main line core world. No high rises and a limited habitable area, no filling the oceans with concrete or creating underwater cities.

Also, the natural resources on an uninhabitable world that is terraformed into a marginally livable prison world, are also valuable. E\You say it i a mudball, but there is no such thing as worthless planet. Even gas giants have things that such a civilization would need. Entire world woulds would need to be stripmined on a daily basis to provide for the resource needs of this population.

Very expensive. Especially since you don't need to build a planet. They're already there.

That made no sense...

Here is my response to what I think you mean, two options

1) I was not refering to prison ships)
2) in order to retrieve prisoners when their term is up, you will need to send down a ship to get them. No teleporters. That whole, Heisenberg uncertainty principle thing. In order to drop food, the containers have to be spaceworthy. And there WILL be smart people on this world. And those people will be VALUABLE. Think of your standard high-charisma mob or gang boss like a medieval feudal baron. They patroned smart people to do things like design weapons.

Da Vinci for example, spent time as a military engineer designing siege weapons IIRC.

CT, are you trying to be this dense? Do you have any idea what kind of infrastructure and level of technology is required to build a city? Nevermind the fact I have previously mentioned the planet in question should have little to no resources capable of being utilized in such a way. Furthermore, the people being put on these planets are criminals. Those who couldn't obey an advanced civilization's rules or operation beforehand. But now we're supposed to expect them to hold hands and build advanced cities out of dirt and rock?

The aussies did it you dipshit. The American colonies managed it. Have you heard of mudbrick? Mudbricks arent hard to make.

Also, there are rules even in prisons. They create their own ethical codes, they are often tiwsted and evil, but there will be a feudal society that develops on such a world. If filled the power vacuum left after the fall of rome, and it is the natural system to develop on such a world. You can see elements of feudal systems in moder prisons for fucks's sake.

The shield secures and guards the planet. All you'd need on top of that is some pretty basic monitoring of systems and the system as a whole. I'm not suggesting a "dump them and forget them" approach.

And every time you open up the shield grid for maintainence, you open the planet to a prison break. And if you don think a massive crime sindicate, which you will have in such a society, does not posess the resources to take out a picket fleet, you are on more drugs than I thought you were.

So it took humans on a resource rich planet Earth thousands of years to build society as it is today...yet you think that a large population of criminials are going to hold hands together, and build vast cities and advanced technology on a planet that has already been established as resource poor or non existent? Just what the hell are you smoking?

Addressed above

Rolling Eyes We haven't even established where and how such shield generators function, CT. What if the generators are in low orbit? Going to take them out by hand then? Even if on the surface, what if they are buried under a few kilometers of the planet's crust? What if the shield generators themselves are also shielded so no individual could get near them?

It's not like it's rocket science to put a few basic security measures in place, CT.

You forget abotu maintaining the powr cables. those will need to be dug up and replaced periodically. The shield generators will have to have their shields dropped and they will need to be refuele, regardless of where they are. Opening them up to attack.

No, I don't. A planet as submitted would require, most likely, far less maintaince than the asteroid prison idea. An asteroid is going to require guards, atmosphere shipments, artificial gravity, etc. Not to mention many such asteroids for large populations.

They an produce their own food and oxygen (synethesized proteins and carbohydrates, and massive vats of membrane-grown algae for oxygen air recycling), and large asteroids can house a lot of people because they can be housed in a multi-level facility. I would submit that artificial gravity is not even possible, but meds used to prevent problems are going to be fairly cheap.

They wouldnot be comfortable, but it would be a hell of a lot more efficient than using planets. Also, in the event of an attack, or riot the population can be controlled with blast doors and spacing. If the facility is attacked in order to release prisoners, the facility can be self-destructed, or better yet, the population can be spaced. Hell they can be spaced in controlled sections. And through all of this they can be separated, and controlled, thus resulting in less systemic cruelty to non-violent criminals.

[Robert Walper]

I'm not familiar with that example, although I think there is a flaw in comparing it to a planetary example with as yet undefined technological means at the disposal of said civilization.

People in Somalia were starving. UN sent food in to feed everyone. As soon as the shipments came in, they were grabbed by warlords, given to their troops, and the average Somalian couldn't do shit about it. I don't think I have to mention that a lot of people died horribly.

So where are the ganglords on this prison world getting their "troops" from?

I don't think there a reason to dismiss handling minor crimes through other means.

Bullshit. There's only so much you can issue citations for. Where you going to put DUI's? Burgalers? Pickpockets? Scam artists? Drug dealers? Drug users? Smugglers? Embezzlers? The list goes on. There are a huge number of offences that people are jailed for that are not rape and murder, despite what CSI tells you.

Obviously. I'd personally suggest a system where warnings and punishment are dependent upon the nature of the crime and number of offences.

But as to the rest of the bunch, I still don't see a problem with the system. Claiming it's a "disaster in the making" concerns the criminals point of view. The concept is a brutal enviroment where serious offenders are sentenced. If they don't like it...don't commit the crime.

Not serious offenders: All offenders. The entire point to this is you're creating a planet to send pretty much all of your criminals to.

I've not see any indication that this prison planet idea was a "all criminals or none" concept.

Armed forces going in and doing so, with full authority to use deadly force in protecting themselves primarily, and their subject of extraction second.

Which is SO much more convenient than, say, calling a prisoner out of his jail cell.

Actually, it could provide experience to said forces on dealing with hostile enviroments and mission objectives.

None. If you're sentenced to the planet, potentially being killed doesn't bother me.

Wow. Nice, Walper, real nice. Glad to know you're not in any sort of position of authority on the matter. What you're proposing is worse than some Communist jails.

You're moral objections don't concern me. Obviously we have different perspectives on the morality of the concept. I'm concerned about making it work, not with appeasing people because they don't like the idea. Some people are all for execution, others want lifetime confinement. I'm basically picking a "middleground" from my perspective.

Naturally people will end up sticking together in groups based upon certain criteria. Protection, similiar traits, etc. No one is disputing this is going to be a very dangerous enviroment and place to live. That's the point.

And you're an idiot for arguing it's justifiable.

See above.

Petty theft isn't something I'd sentence someone to this planet for. As I said, I don't see a problem with having systems in place to deal with minor offences.

Okay smart guy, you've just talked yourself into a corner. Provide information that rape and murder (or other major violent crimes) are the most prevalent crimes for existing prison populations.

No need, since I never asserted so.

Otherwise, show me a civilization size which would produce enough rapists and murderers to warrant a planetary population.

Define "planetary population". It could range from thousands to billions. I have not asserted any specific number. The only thing I've asserted is that the planet prison idea would be more efficient given enough criminals to deal with.

[Robert Walper]

Seeing as the individuals concerned will all equally have the ability to acquire said food, how do these "ganglords" convince anyone to do something in the first place?

No Walper if history has shown us anything it's that they won't have the equal ability to acquire food if left on their own. The bigger, stronger guys will get first dibs if nothing else.

My earlier point was that there would be enough resources spread out over a large enough area that any individual will have a reasonable chance to acquire some.

Also you forget that in this situation food would be power, convince a group of guys that all of ya would be better off (we'll get bigger shares of food, people working for us, more women, etc, etc) if they banded togather to control access to the food and you're a ganglord. This isn't something Hotfoot yanked out his ass, it's happened and Solimila is just the most recent overt example.

It's would be a pretty shitty and brutal place to live, no qualms there.

But as to controlling access to the food, I fail to see how any gangs can control that since they do not control the frequency, abundance or locations of drops.

[Comrade Tortoise]

No, it's not a matter of anyone ensuring that anyone else gets their food. That's up to every individual to get their own.

And the non-violent offeners will starve to death

Seeing as the individuals concerned will all equally have the ability to acquire said food, how do these "ganglords" convince anyone to do something in the first place?

Force, you fucking moron. You dont know how criminals work do you? There is this thing called a prison rep. You beat up a couple people, and you gain a following of people who have a twisted respect for you. Your followers will themselves have minions and bitches who will do their, and by extension, your, bidding

It is a feudal system

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the example. So referencing it will not get you anywhere.

Then educate yourself you ignorant 'tard

Depends how the shield works and if this is even an issue. Furthermore it depends upon the planet's attributes. It could be a hotter planet where such reduction actually reduces it to a more comfortable temperature.

Not likely. Depending on the planet's makeup, you could have any number of problems. Not the least of it is oxygen. on a barren planet, you have to deal with morethan heat. you have to deal with aq distinct lack of breathable O2 after a while with nothing to recycle it.

Barren planet, remember?

No such thing walper

Food packing crates counts as material required to achieve spaceflight?

If you are dropping them from orbit, yes

True. So if your eligible for parole, better keeps tabs on that.

What if you are smart (not that you are) and it is removed by force to keep you under a prison-baron's control?

Hence, my "heavily armed readily applying deadly force" team suggestion. It would be the in the best interests of any individuals to stay the hell out of the way of said landing party.

Overwhelmed by sheer numbers

Tough luck

Have you ever thought that you are a sociopath?

If they screw with their device, they hurt no one but themselves. If someone else screws with their tampering device...well, just another reason to not want to go to said planet.

yes, yes you are a sociopath

[Comrade Tortoise]

So where are the ganglords on this prison world getting their "troops" from?

The rest of the prison population you tard.

Here, let me get you a helmet so you dont hurt yourself.

Obviously. I'd personally suggest a system where warnings and punishment are dependent upon the nature of the crime and number of offences.

Good luck with designing such a system

Actually, it could provide experience to said forces on dealing with hostile enviroments and mission objectives.

And they would be overwhelmed and their shit taken

You're moral objections don't concern me.

because you are a scum sucking sociopath.

Define "planetary population". It could range from thousands to billions. I have not asserted any specific number. The only thing I've asserted is that the planet prison idea would be more efficient given enough criminals to deal with.

If it is in the thousands to millions you may as well not wast a planet and build your prisons into the standard human population, or on a single to several 6 KM asteroid(s).

[Robert Walper]

No, it's not a matter of anyone ensuring that anyone else gets their food. That's up to every individual to get their own.

And the non-violent offeners will starve to death

Funny how they'll starve to death when said food sources will be dropped all over the place.

Seeing as the individuals concerned will all equally have the ability to acquire said food, how do these "ganglords" convince anyone to do something in the first place?

Force, you fucking moron. You dont know how criminals work do you? There is this thing called a prison rep. You beat up a couple people, and you gain a following of people who have a twisted respect for you. Your followers will themselves have minions and bitches who will do their, and by extension, your, bidding

It is a feudal system

Great. How does this translate to them being about to dictate where, when and how many food drops are distributed?

Like I said, I'm not familiar with the example. So referencing it will not get you anywhere.

Then educate yourself you ignorant 'tard

I haven't watched your "Black Hawk Down" movie. Sue me.

Not likely. Depending on the planet's makeup, you could have any number of problems. Not the least of it is oxygen. on a barren planet, you have to deal with morethan heat. you have to deal with aq distinct lack of breathable O2 after a while with nothing to recycle it.

Never said finding the right planet would be easy. Might even need to modify one or make it suitable for the purpose in mind.

Barren planet, remember?

No such thing walper

I'm using the term barren in a loose context. Meaning attempts to build an advanced society are going to be pretty futile.

Food packing crates counts as material required to achieve spaceflight?

If you are dropping them from orbit, yes

Modify the system so that space craft make aerial drops rather than "orbital" ones. I wasn't thinking of dropping food from orbit in the first place.

True. So if your eligible for parole, better keeps tabs on that.

What if you are smart (not that you are) and it is removed by force to keep you under a prison-baron's control?

If you're smart, you'll stay away from gang lands and stick around people you get along or at least can co exist with.

Hence, my "heavily armed readily applying deadly force" team suggestion. It would be the in the best interests of any individuals to stay the hell out of the way of said landing party.

Overwhelmed by sheer numbers

Yeah, right. Gangs armed with sticks and stones will really be a match for advanced military forces given permission to wipe out any serious opposition.

If they screw with their device, they hurt no one but themselves. If someone else screws with their tampering device...well, just another reason to not want to go to said planet.

yes, yes you are a sociopath

Thanks for pointing out we have different moral perspectives. Anything else?

[Robert Walper]

So where are the ganglords on this prison world getting their "troops" from?

The rest of the prison population you tard.

And what makes their groups superior to any others? I was interpreting your comment to mean they will have some sort of distinct advantage over the others.

Actually, it could provide experience to said forces on dealing with hostile enviroments and mission objectives.

And they would be overwhelmed and their shit taken

Yeah, right. Gangs armed with sticks and stones will really be a match for advanced military forces given permission to wipe out any serious opposition.

You're moral objections don't concern me.

because you are a scum sucking sociopath.

Save your moral objections. The OP said nothing about the prison planet having to be moral in design or nature. Never minding we obviously have different moral perpsectives.

Define "planetary population". It could range from thousands to billions. I have not asserted any specific number. The only thing I've asserted is that the planet prison idea would be more efficient given enough criminals to deal with.

If it is in the thousands to millions you may as well not wast a planet and build your prisons into the standard human population, or on a single to several 6 KM asteroid(s).

Like I've said previously, the criminal population would have to justify such an expenditure, or the prison planet design being more efficient. Large construction concepts can be cheaper depending on scale and necessity.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Funny how they'll starve to death when said food sources will be dropped all over the place.

If dropped all over the place, how will prisoners find them?

Great. How does this translate to them being about to dictate where, when and how many food drops are distributed?

They dont need to. All they need is local control over who gets the damn food. if you drop the food all over the place, even more will starve.

I haven't watched your "Black Hawk Down" movie. Sue me.

If you dont understand a reference to an internation conflict, there is this thing called google. Use it.

Never said finding the right planet would be easy. Might even need to modify one or make it suitable for the purpose in mind

And terraforming a planet is more efficient than modifying an asteroid and onstructing a honeycomb like structure of cells...how?

I'm using the term barren in a loose context. Meaning attempts to build an advanced society are going to be pretty futile.

Then it wont be livable at all

You vant have your cake and eat it too walper.

Modify the system so that space craft make aerial drops rather than "orbital" ones. I wasn't thinking of dropping food from orbit in the first place.

Making the shield useless
Congrats walper, you are an idiot

If you're smart, you'll stay away from gang lands and stick around people you get along or at least can co exist with.

Then the gangs, including yours, start fighting over resources and territory.

Yeah, right. Gangs armed with sticks and stones will really be a match for advanced military forces given permission to wipe out any serious opposition.

In sufficient numbers, they will be. You are an idiot. And all this to retrieve one prisoner... And this is more efficient than locking down the prison and getting a guy out of his cell...how?

Thanks for pointing out we have different moral perspectives. Anything else?

There is a difference between differing moral perspectives and being an unfeeling sociopath.

[Comrade Tortoise]

And what makes their groups superior to any others? I was interpreting your comment to mean they will have some sort of distinct advantage over the others.

Numbers, organization, primitive weapons at the least, weapons stolen from guards who died trying to free people who's sentences were up.

Save your moral objections. The OP said nothing about the prison planet having to be moral in design or nature. Never minding we obviously have different moral perpsectives.

If you are going to look at a prison system, you have to look at the whole thing. And you are one to talk about what the OP says Walper

Like I've said previously, the criminal population would have to justify such an expenditure, or the prison planet design being more efficient. Large construction concepts can be cheaper depending on scale and necessity.

If it isnt self-suficient, like a prison asteroid of my design would be, it wont be more efficient.

[Robert Walper]

Funny how they'll starve to death when said food sources will be dropped all over the place.

If dropped all over the place, how will prisoners find them?

How will they not find them?

Great. How does this translate to them being about to dictate where, when and how many food drops are distributed?

They dont need to. All they need is local control over who gets the damn food.

Kinda hard to do since it will be impossible for them to intercept all food packages.

if you drop the food all over the place, even more will starve.

Why? What is it about "food all over the place" that makes people starve?

I haven't watched your "Black Hawk Down" movie. Sue me.

If you dont understand a reference to an internation conflict, there is this thing called google. Use it.

Actually, instead you could just make your point without referencing the movie at all or insisting I watch it.

Never said finding the right planet would be easy. Might even need to modify one or make it suitable for the purpose in mind

And terraforming a planet is more efficient than modifying an asteroid and onstructing a honeycomb like structure of cells...how?

Depends on the cost to benefit ratio, and what you have to work with. Which requires more work will depend on what you have to work with.

I'm using the term barren in a loose context. Meaning attempts to build an advanced society are going to be pretty futile.

Then it wont be livable at all

Where livable is isn't a "on/off" proposition, CT. It's a matter of degrees. People live in harsh and unforgiving climates all over the place, and can live much easier if receiving outside (though restricted) resources.

Modify the system so that space craft make aerial drops rather than "orbital" ones. I wasn't thinking of dropping food from orbit in the first place.

Making the shield useless
Congrats walper, you are an idiot

How does the spacecraft being capabe of aerial drops make the shield useless? Whether you drop from orbit or air, the shield can still exist and still needs to be dropped initially (assuming technological means doesn't make even that unnecessary).

If you're smart, you'll stay away from gang lands and stick around people you get along or at least can co exist with.

Then the gangs, including yours, start fighting over resources and territory.

If gangs want to sqaubble over who pisses where, that's their problem. After all, it's a planet we're talking about.

Yeah, right. Gangs armed with sticks and stones will really be a match for advanced military forces given permission to wipe out any serious opposition.

In sufficient numbers, they will be. You are an idiot. And all this to retrieve one prisoner... And this is more efficient than locking down the prison and getting a guy out of his cell...how?

Yes, mobs of hundreds of criminals will charge at machine gun armed soldiers who could mow them down at will.

Are you aware of the concept that a man with a gun can control a crowd with a pistol? Why do you think that is, even if he only has only eight bullets?

Thanks for pointing out we have different moral perspectives. Anything else?

There is a difference between differing moral perspectives and being an unfeeling sociopath.

So Comrade Tortoise thinks I'm an unfeeling sociopath. I'll be sure to let you know when I give a shit.

[SirNitram]

This has to be a joke. No one can be so dumb as to think you can drop food across the surface of a barren, desolate wasteland planet and think there will be no problem finding this stuff and distributing it. 5.104E14 M^2 surface area, folks! Even with a modern infrastructure created, the effort to collect a random distribution of food supplies and return it to any urban centres would astonishing. Assuming there is no such.. IE, it's just a barren prison world with mininal technology.. They're history.

[Hotfoot]

So where are the ganglords on this prison world getting their "troops" from?

It starts with one guy. He says, "Do as I say or I'll beat the hell out of you." Some people are intimidated, some people see a strong leader and follow. Some people resist and get the hell beaten out of them, and perhaps even killed. After a while, it stops being "I'll beat the hell out of you," and being "my boys will beat the hell out of you." It goes from there. How the fuck do you think Feudal society got started? Strength comes in numbers, and the people who start forming groups get power.

Obviously. I'd personally suggest a system where warnings and punishment are dependent upon the nature of the crime and number of offences.

Okay, you get off this time, but the next time you pick a pocket, to the death world!

Yeah, real great solution for making the punishment fit the crime, shithead.

I've not see any indication that this prison planet idea was a "all criminals or none" concept.

Well what the hell are you doing with the VAST MAJORITY of your offenders? The reason you're setting aside a whole damn planet is because of a huge prison population, and you don't have that without minor offenders.

Actually, it could provide experience to said forces on dealing with hostile enviroments and mission objectives.

Bullshit. Such retrievals wouldn't be near as frequent enough for training purposes and the prisoners would lack (most likely) modern weaponry. This is like saying that random incursions into Haiti would be good training for our troops.

You're moral objections don't concern me. Obviously we have different perspectives on the morality of the concept. I'm concerned about making it work, not with appeasing people because they don't like the idea. Some people are all for execution, others want lifetime confinement. I'm basically picking a "middleground" from my perspective.

Middle ground? Seriously, what the hell? The world you've described IS a death trap. In fact, the whole concept you've devised is so ludicrious as to be entirely worthless. According to you, everyone will get along just fine and the planet will never be overcrowded or have any problems at all. Just clap your hands on your ears and scream as loud as you can.

No need, since I never asserted so.

The fact that you seem to think that an ENTIRE PLANET is viable (and in fact, necessary) to hold these people, this means there's got to be a LOT of them. In which case, you're looking at a society that has, on average, about one to ten billion murderers and rapists for each penal colony. The number of lesser offenders, I don't think I have to say, would be staggering. Such a society would be phenomenally large, and it would quite possibly cost more just to ship offenders to these colonies than to just build local high security prisons for them.

Define "planetary population". It could range from thousands to billions. I have not asserted any specific number. The only thing I've asserted is that the planet prison idea would be more efficient given enough criminals to deal with.

Let's just say one billion, for now.


Meanwhile, let's take a closer look at the factors involved. CT is right, the world CAN'T be completely barren and still support life. It needs something to convert CO2 to O2. That means, generally speaking, plant life. If this world is terraformed, or capable of supporting our type of life, that means it can be farmed. This means the cheapest, most efficient method is to give new prisoners a bag of seeds and some basic tools and tell them to live out the rest of their lives.

Guess what this leads to, folks. You got it! Fuedalism! Newbies will be inducted into work farms by gang leaders (You're the Boss of New York! A-Number-One!) and forced to comply by enforcers. You'd have to be fucking retarded not to realize that people who were friends outside the prison will most likely be friends inside the prison, and any gangs or organized crime syndicates will carry over respectively.

Guess what? Give people tools, and they'll make more tools. Hell, they'll make tools with just their hands to make more tools. It's not that hard. Got a rock? Hey, now it's a hammer. Now you can smash another rock and make an axe, or a knife. Eventually metal deposits will be found (or left behind), and more advanced tools will be created. Not that you need terribly advanced tools to make spears, bows, and arrows, given that there will be plant matter abundant in the area, including, very likely, trees.

Wars on the ground will follow, of course. One group that went far away to live in peace as Walper suggested might one day find themselves attacked, all the men killed and all the women kidnapped and gang raped. Anyone unfortunate enough to find especially fertile land had better rally enough people to defend it, and find some way of maintaining loyalty, because it will be fought over.

Eventually, a general moral code will evolve. Different groups will rise to power. Children will be born on a planet with child molestors skulking in the shadows (unless you neuter EVERYONE, children will be born).

There is literally no way for an inmate to communicate with his council concerning an appeals process or parole. Neutering everyone becomes impossible in the case of individuals with limited sentences. You still have the issue of extracting the wrongly accused, the paroled, and the pardoned.

If this punishment is exclusively reserved for violent crimes and the like, it does little if anything to actually RELIEVE the pressures on the total prison population, since the majority of inmates are not murderers and rapists, meaning that there then have to be even MORE planets for lesser offenders, which brings us back to absurdly huge societies.

Going back to Walper's example, here's the fucking hilarious part:
-He wants a barren system, so the inmates are reliant on the guards for sustinance
-He wants a magical shield system to keep the inmates from escaping
-He wants perfect distribution of critical supplies to all inmates

Essentially, he wants a domed colony on an airless moon or (gasp) a hollowed out asteroid or space station. Just without the pesky business of needing people to be with the prisoners to control them if they get out of hand and to keep everything functional.

New flash: It doesn't work. Walper, you can bitch and moan about those opposing you resorting to appeals to emotion, but the simple fact remains that your system is logically inconsistant. It doesn't work, end of story. On TOP of that, it has a total disregard for any sort of punishment = crime system, which, I would like to point out, you really don't have any system at all presented.

[Hotfoot]

Kinda hard to do since it will be impossible for them to intercept all food packages.

Which indicates that there would be drops that are lost completely. Genius! Tell me, why WOULDN'T there be designated drop zones for food and supplies, and why WOULDN'T people congregate there?

[Ra]

What disturbs me is that in this little scenario the males and females aren't separated at all. AT ALL. Why the fuck do you think they have seperate prisons for men and women? On this happy little prison world, the life expectancy of a female convict would be six minutes; just long enough to rape, stab, and mutilate the corpse. And Hotfoot's already adressed the fact that everyone's being tarred with the same brush here. A total disregard for punishment suiting the crime is tantamount to fascism. Everyone gets sent to this deathtrap planetary gulag for any crime. That flies in the face of a free, just society.
- Ra