Is the Borg Collective 'evil'?

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Robert Walper
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#51

Post by Robert Walper »

Batman wrote:The basis of my argument has been from the very beginning been that the Collective DENYING choice is what makes it evil.
The drones are not evil for being drones, the Collective is for making them drones.
Species pick-one-that-was-assimilated is not evil for having been assimilated, the Collective is for having forced assimilation on them.
Rob I know you're dense where the Borg are concerned but this is pushing it.
Being denied choice is undesireable, but you have yet to submit any reasoning to convince me this is evil.

Remember, death is also undesireable, yet it is not evil. Disease is undesireable, but it is not evil. Nor is lack of choice.

For the record and clarification, I'm not arguing the Borg Collective as either moral or immoral. But rather amoral, as in lacking morality or any consideration for it.
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#52

Post by Batman »

Death doesn't intentionally pick someone out and does him/her in.
Ebola doesn't intentionally infect people because it hates their guts.
The Borg DO intentionally assimiliate or murder shitloads of people.
Death does NOT have the ability to say 'Kill a kitten? What do I look like? Screw you!'
Ebola CAN'T decide not to infect someone youg because they've still got most of their life before them and that would be too cruel.
The Borg CHOOSE to run rampant (or try to) across the Trek galaxy.
Last edited by Batman on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#53

Post by Robert Walper »

Batman wrote:Death doesn't intentionally pick someone out and does him/her in.
Not death itself. I apologize for not being clear enough.

Lifeforms, human or otherwise, kill for their own purposes. Whether it's for food, self defence, hell, even sport. I've watched parental predators keep their prey live so their young can practice and hone their killing skills.

None of the above is evil, nor does it make said party evil. It's just life. Definitely unpleasant for the recieving party, but again, that's life.
Ebola doesn't intentionally infect people because it hates their guts.
True. Because it lacks morality...something I've now repeatedly stated the Borg also lack.
The Borg DO intentionally DOES assimilita or murder shitloads of people.
The Borg definitely intentionally assimilates beings, although I think murder is a inaccurate term. The Borg only kill if they have to (as in destroying enemy forces attempting to damage or destroy them), but never otherwise. Remember how the Borg ordered the Enterprise to escort them to Sector 001, even after they had attacked the Borg? The Borg obviously prefer to assimilate beings, not kill them. If they're not interested in you, they'll completely ignore you.
Death does NOT have the ability to say 'Kill a kitten? What do I look like? Screw you!'
Ebola CAN'T decide not to infect someone youg because they've still got most of their life before them and that would be too cruel.
The Borg CHOOSE to run rampant (or try to) across the Trek galaxy.
They don't 'run rampant' as you claim. They have very specific goals and objectives, again, something I've repeatedly pointed out.
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#54

Post by Narsil »

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Walper... Get a clue.
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#55

Post by Robert Walper »

For the record, I find it somewhat interesting people here are seemingly unable to comprehend what amoral means.

A grizzly bear attacking you for food, self defense or defending it's territory is not acting evil or immoral. Frankly, it's amoral. It's simply doing what it does to survive.

Giving the bear the trait of sentience or human "choice" does not suddenly condone it's actions as evil. I presume everyone realizes what that would imply...
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#56

Post by Robert Walper »

Dakarne wrote: *image*

Walper... Get a clue.
Don't spam my thread with irrelevent pictures or comments, Dakarne.
Last edited by Robert Walper on Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#57

Post by Narsil »

Don't spam my thread with irrelevent pictures, Dakarne.
She is in control of the Borg Collective.

She makes its decisions.

She is its leader.

She decides for them.

She makes them do what they do.

I suppose a picture reminding you of her existance would jog said memory...

But no... not really.
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#58

Post by Robert Walper »

Dakarne wrote:
Don't spam my thread with irrelevent pictures, Dakarne.
She is in control of the Borg Collective.

She makes its decisions.

She is its leader.

She decides for them.

She makes them do what they do.
The Borg has a limited hierarchy...proving they're evil...how again? Whoops. Another miss...wish I could say I'm surprised, really I do.
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#59

Post by Narsil »

The Borg has a limited hierarchy...proving they're evil...how again? Whoops. Another miss...wish I could say I'm surprised, really I do.
You completely ignored my point.

She makes them do what they do as a conscious decision.

Thus: It is a conscious (not a natural and instinctive) act.

Your inability to listen to that point leads me to say:

Concession Accepted, fuckwad.
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#60

Post by Robert Walper »

Dakarne wrote:
The Borg has a limited hierarchy...proving they're evil...how again? Whoops. Another miss...wish I could say I'm surprised, really I do.
You completely ignored my point.

She makes them do what they do as a conscious decision.

Thus: It is a conscious (not a natural and instinctive) act.

Your inability to listen to that point leads me to say:

Concession Accepted, fuckwad.
And you proved that conscious decisions equates being evil...how again?

Whoops again! Damn, this is hilarious. It's like watching a retard talking to a wall, but you make the retard look smart...
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#61

Post by Narsil »

And you proved that conscious decisions equates being evil...how again?


Because of WHAT they're doing, you TWIT!
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#62

Post by Robert Walper »

Dakarne wrote:
And you proved that conscious decisions equates being evil...how again?


Because of WHAT they're doing, you TWIT!
And you have yet to prove those actions are evil, twit. But damned if getting answers out of you isn't like squeezing water out of a rock...
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#63

Post by Narsil »

And you have yet to prove those actions are evil, twit. But damned if getting answers out of you isn't like squeezing water out of a rock...
And thus:

You prove your own immorality.

Killing and enslaving of sentient life for no reasons related to survival is evil. No matter which direction you look at it from. And thus:

Concession Accepted, Yet Again.
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#64

Post by Robert Walper »

Dakarne wrote:
And you have yet to prove those actions are evil, twit. But damned if getting answers out of you isn't like squeezing water out of a rock...
And thus:

You prove your own immorality.
Morality is subjective, kid. Get used to it.

And I've already argued the Borg are amoral, not moral or immoral.
Killing and enslaving of sentient life for no reasons related to survival is evil. No matter which direction you look at it from.
Evolution is survival. Organisms and civilization that do not evolve (that's 'change and adapt to survive better, for your puny mind) die out. The Borg evolve via assimilation.

Arguing with you is like shooting fish in a barrel...all too easy.
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#65

Post by Batman »

You know I'm probably the single richest individual in the DC universe and I doubt I have the money to buy Walper the clue he needs.
Robert Walper wrote:For the record, I find it somewhat interesting people here are seemingly unable to comprehend what amoral means.
I know exactly what amoral means. It's just that it is completely irrelevant wether or not the borg are amoral.
A grizzly bear attacking you for food, self defense or defending it's territory is not acting evil or immoral. Frankly, it's amoral. It's simply doing what it does to survive.
Notice the bolded. If isn't hungry, under attack, or giving you the ursine equivalent of 'GET THE FUCK OFF MY LAWN' it's going to leave you alone. The Borg would STILL try to assimilate you.
Giving the bear the trait of sentience or human "choice" does not suddenly condone it's actions as evil. I presume everyone realizes what that would imply...
BECAUSE IT'S STILL DEFENDING ITS HOME OR ITS LIFE YOU IMBECILE!
Please explain to me how Earth was threatening the Borg or encroaching on their territory.
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#66

Post by Narsil »

Right...

Walper.

I'm not going to bother responding after this...

But picture the following:

You are injected with assimilation tubes.

You are then under the control of the Borg Collective

Your own parents resist assimilation, and you beat your own mother into a pulp because you are now a mindless drone under the control of a megalomaniac cyborg bitch and then assimilate her

Apply the same for your father

Apply the same for every freaking person you encounter from here-on-in.

And they all have to undergo the same thing

If that doesn't strike you as an immoral action, you are obviously beyond redemption, and should be placed alongside Darkstar on the way to the bloody mental ward you bleeding lunatic.
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#67

Post by Batman »

A few more points while there's a lull.
Walper wrote:
Ebola doesn't intentionally infect people because it hates their guts.
True. Because it lacks morality...something I've now repeatedly stated the Borg also lack.
Bzzt. Wrong. Because it lacks the decision making capability.
If Ebola DID infected people in anything OTHER than life-or-death situations, especially if other options are available, we'd consider it evil, TOO.
The Borg definitely intentionally assimilates beings, although I think murder is a inaccurate term. The Borg only kill if they have to (as in destroying enemy forces attempting to damage or destroy them), but never otherwise.
You mean like they didn't at Wolf 359? Where they destroyed a whole fleet of UFP ships that couldn't so much as scratch their paint? When it would have been pathetically easy for them to simply disable those ships?
The Borg routinely destroy ships they can't assimilate wether those pose a threat or not.
I don't know what universe you live in, but here if a small child attacks you with a water balloon and you kill him for it we call that murder.
Especially if he does so in reaction to you announcing that you intend to kidnap and brainwash his family.
They don't 'run rampant' as you claim. They have very specific goals and objectives, again, something I've repeatedly pointed out.
:roll: Thanks for completely missing the point. Go buy yourself a new -ism detector. I can't remember which particular one it was but it should have been obvious that I did NOT mean that literally.
The point was that they do so intentionally.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
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#68

Post by frigidmagi »

Walper, you cannot claim amorality for everything you like.

The Borg Collective is capable of choice. They proved that by making an alliance with Voyger (There you happy? Now I am going to feel dirty as hell for even thinking of that series for the rest of the fucking week) instead of just assmiliating them.

The Collective fully understands that other beings do not wish to be assmilated. The Collective fully understands that it is attacking other beings instead of purposing peaceful methods to gain what they desire.

The Collective has the ability to chose a different action everytime it invades and enslaves other sapient beings. It does not.

Amorality would mean an unthinking process. Death is amoral. A storm is amoral. The fucking bloody Ocean is amoral. A sapent being cannot be amoral it has a choice. It has understanding of the effects of its actions.

On a seperate note, if you think the thread is being spamed whistle up the board mod and inform him and he'll make his call. That Cat's job, not yours since you are all of one side in this debate.
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#69

Post by Narsil »

There you happy? Now I am going to feel dirty as hell for even thinking of that series for the rest of the fucking week
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And, as an addition to my reply:
Evolution is survival. Organisms and civilization that do not evolve (that's 'change and adapt to survive better, for your puny mind) die out. The Borg evolve via assimilation.
Dude, where does evolution figure into a bunch of cyborgs?
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#70

Post by Batman »

Much as I hate to support Walper this one doesn't wash, Dakarne.
Dakarne wrote:
Evolution is survival. Organisms and civilization that do not evolve (that's 'change and adapt to survive better, for your puny mind) die out. The Borg evolve via assimilation.
Dude, where does evolution figure into a bunch of cyborgs?
Just because the Borg are not a purely organical species does not mean they do not evolve. No tool-using species is purely organic, in a sense. Learning to use tools and how to make the best use of them is part of evolution. The Borg just went a wee bit too far down the 'tools' road.
That being said, Walper's still wrong.
1) Organisms that do not evolve in the face of a changing environment and new threats die out. There are plenty of organisms on earth that remained unchanged for millions of years. Why? They didn't need to change. The challenge that would require the Borg to evolve would be?
2) The Borg NEED to assimilate to evolve, and they need to do so BY FORCE. The technological 'distinctiveness' they crave could easily be gained by peaceful exchange of information ('We give you Transwarp if you give us x') and the biological part could be gathered by ASKING people to join the collective.
I mean we're talking about a universe that has contaminated antimatter, fractured event horizons, and Janeway promoted to Admiral. People deciding of their own free will to join the Moron Colective seems downright benign by comparison.
Or how about handing over Death Row inmates in exchange for tech? They may be twisted but the basic biological information's still there.
'I wonder how far the barometer sunk.'-'All der way. Trust me on dis.'
'Go ahead. Bake my quiche'.
'Undead or alive, you're coming with me.'
'Detritus?'-'Yessir?'-'Never go to Klatch'.-'Yessir.'
'Many fine old manuscripts in that place, I believe. Without price, I'm told.'-'Yes, sir. Certainly worthless, sir.'-'Is it possible you misunderstood what I just said, Commander?'
'Can't sing, can't dance, can handle a sword a little'
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#71

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#72

Post by Comrade Tortoise »


I take it then you consider ants evil, as they do the same thing on a relative scale?
Ants and the insects and other animals they kill lack the rational capacity to care. Thus it is not evil.


The only time the Borg have killed is in response to others trying to attack them first. Otherwise they prefer to either ignore others or incorperate others into their Collective, giving them all available benefits.
By enslaving a sentient mind to a hive, you in effect, kill the person. The body is an empty organic automaton at that point. It is murder.
A lot of things ants do is sickening to many people, while I subscribe it's just nature. So you assert they are evil?
Again, ants and their victims lack rational capacity to feel and appreciate suffering and death. Humanshave that rational capacity, and considering the amount of psychological damage they did to Picard, it is a fair bet that the mind inside the automaton screams for release.
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#73

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

Let me clarify, Batman. Lacking choice is not evil, anymore than ants lacking choice is. The Borg strip their drones of individuality and the ability to make choices, but they do so in an amoral way.
Bullshit. It is impossible to strip a sentient being of autonomy and have it not be an immoral act. Using any moral system possible, from frminist ethics to utilitarianism to social contract and Kant.

Then ants would be evil by actions of killing, harvesting other insects and carnage on a massive scale (relatively). However, they are not evil by any definition I subscribe to. Nor are the Borg.
Again, the difference is a lack of rational capacity.

There's no disputing their actions are unpleasant from our perspective and choice of life. However, that does not make them evil. That just makes them something to be avoided. Like rabid dogs. Dangerous and unpleasant, but not evil.
They are directed by a hive mind, even if their want to assimilate is programmed, there still had to be a programmer who had that intent which serves as the effective mind for the collective. That being, because he willfully (with his or its rational capacity)strips sentients of their autonomy and rational capacity, even if he does it by proxy, is evil. And the collective is evil by extension

The BC simply takes this level of control to a higher level.
Bullshit Walper, they remove individuality and sapience itself.
Remember, death is also undesireable, yet it is not evil. Disease is undesireable, but it is not evil. Nor is lack of choice.
Being stripped of choice causes willfully, suffering and effective death to a sapient being from an unnatural and willfull causes. It does so without benefit to another being with rational capacity to appreciate said benefit save for whatever it was that programmed the borg to strip sapience from the victim. The victim's loved ones suffer as well.

There we go, a basic utilitarian calculus.

And here is Kant.

Assimilation violates the Categorical imperitive because it treats another being with rational capacity as a means, rather than an end unto itself; and fails to respect the inherent dignity of that sentient being.

Basic feminist ethics: Oppression=bad. Stripping a rational being ot its rationality is the ultimate in oppression

Social contract: You are stripping a being of its ability to consent to social and moral rules, without first getting it;s consent to do so. In other words, you violate the being's inherent right to autonomy.
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#74

Post by Cynical Cat »

Well, I think this has gone far enough. Robet's going to continue to do a song and dance to avoid admitting the Borg are evil and nothing is going to be gained by rehashing it. If you want to discuss the nature of good, evil, and amorality, you may go to Philosophy and Theology and do so. This discussion is closed.
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