LibriumArcana.Games

In honor of the Clone Wars cartoon that I finished watching the sixth (and final) season of recently, coupled with expectation of the Star Wars RPG some of us are looking forward to playing (once the Jedi & Sith book comes out next year), as well as a prospective fanfic I'm thinking of, I present this thread to you, the reader with a jaundiced and cynical eye.

This is some conceptual stuff that I'd either like to get more clear on in my own mind, or inspire a discussion on. I'm spoilerizing them so I don't assault people unintentionally with word wave attacks.


1. Shades of the Force
2. Lightsaber Crystals
3. CapShip Design Philosophy post-ROTJ

Did you ever play KoToR II? Yeah, it's a mess and all, but it gets into the Force dynamics pretty good.

Josh wrote:Did you ever play KoToR II? Yeah, it's a mess and all, but it gets into the Force dynamics pretty good.

I never have played KoToR 1 or 2, unfortunately. I've heard many good things about both, but I think I heard of them too late, since I couldn't get KoToR 1 to run on my PC, so I never tried 2.

All I do know about them is that those games inspired some of the places and events (such as the Rakghoul shenanigans) in the SW:ToR MMO game, which I know isn't much at all.

In KoToR 2 there's a Sith named Darth Traya who thinks the Force is evil and wishes to destroy it, to forever remove its malign influence from the Galaxy. Unfortunately there is no ending where you agree with her and do so, sparing the Galaxy all the death and destruction wrought by the never ending warfare between the Dark and the Light.

Lys wrote:In KoToR 2 there's a Sith named Darth Traya who thinks the Force is evil and wishes to destroy it, to forever remove its malign influence from the Galaxy. Unfortunately there is no ending where you agree with her and do so, sparing the Galaxy all the death and destruction wrought by the never ending warfare between the Dark and the Light.

That's an interesting concept, I have to admit.

In KoToR 1 or 2, were any of the issues I posted about in the OP addressed?

Yeah, that's why I recommended it- Traya goes into the whole light/dark dichotomy and the nature of the Force at some length. It's been too many years since I played the game for me to quote it properly, but I'd definitely recommend grabbing a copy and trying it out. It'll piss you off for how much potential it had that got pissed away by a forced early release, but I understand there's a couple of decent fan mod restoration patches out these days.

Nitram was kind enough to give me a link to an unofficial DLC which purported to fix the beta-ishness inherent in KoToR 2, from what I've read.

You both have made me curious enough to try it again, so I'll see what I can do. Is playing KoToR 1 necessary to understand all the events in 2, as it seems to be?

It certainly helps, and KOTOR 1 is an awesome game to begin with. I'd suggest it.

I have a hard time recommending Knights of the Old Republic because the combat is pretty awful. Encounters are by and large dreadfully boring, except for a few particularly challenging ones which are frustrating and boring. Unfortunately, combat is major gameplay element and I couldn't finish the game on account of it being so damn terrible. If you can get past that though, the story and dialogue are indeed excellent, and I loved all the parts that didn't involve shooting at people.

This does make me wonder if I can just find a Let's Play of it on Youtube or something. KoToR 1 and my PC didn't get along at all the last time I tried running it.

Well, I'm pretty sure the combat in KoToR 2 is the same as in the first game, so you wouldn't really be solving the problem by skipping straight to it.

Lys wrote:Well, I'm pretty sure the combat in KoToR 2 is the same as in the first game, so you wouldn't really be solving the problem by skipping straight to it.

What I was implying was that if KoToR 1 didn't work at all on my PC, then KoToR 2 would likely have the same issues. So, I'll have to find another way of finding out what happens during the events of those two games. And that, in my mind, means watching someone else play it on Youtube, as much as I'd like to have the experience of playing it myself.

The combat isn't spectacular in KOTOR, but it's hardly enough to torpedo the entire game. I thought it was serviceable, no more. But KOTOR is a game I unhesitatingly recommend despite that, and if you let the combat drive you off a game you're playing because it plays with force philosophy, then I don't know what to tell you.

Besides, a Let's Play won't do the trick for this one. Playing a full run through KOTOR 1, particularly a dark side one, is a thing that must be experienced yourself.

General Havoc wrote:...a Let's Play won't do the trick for this one. Playing a full run through KOTOR 1, particularly a dark side one, is a thing that must be experienced yourself.

That's the impression I'm getting, yes. I'll see what I can do, but if it cannot get along with the hardware I have, then I may be forced to experience both games through someone else's gameplay.

But meanwhile though, these questions are why I made this thread, not my experiences with older games.

Man, I had a blast with KoToR combat. Maybe it was just the gosh-wow factor of "I'm playing a Jedi and I'm whoopin' some ass and the Force is with me, bitches!" but it was easily manageable. Some of the levels in KoToR can get tedious (FUCK the Tatooine desert and also that endless circle run on that floating city) but there were other times that shit just got awesome. The underwater stuff fucking rocked, zappin' the sharks and shit, and back before they started having everyone just bop around on the surface of Kashyyk going down there was some awesome shit. I just nerded out the first time I played that part out.

Man, I played the shit out of that game. Good times.

Josh wrote:Man, I had a blast with KoToR combat. Maybe it was just the gosh-wow factor of "I'm playing a Jedi and I'm whoopin' some ass and the Force is with me, bitches!"

For me, KoToR got off to a poor start when it became clear every single character in the game graduated from the Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy. I made a scoundrel pistol duelist and she couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from inside of it! Getting a lightsabre didn't improve things because combat with it failed to look or feel anything like what lightsaber combat should, which lead me to forsake the damn thing in favour of just blaster pistol + force powers. Really the only time I distinctly remember having fun was in the Tarsis duelling arena.

Josh wrote:FUCK the Tatooine desert

That would be the exact point where I quit. After Dantooine I went to Manaan and did everything there short of the part where you go underwater and try to find the plot device. I really needed a change of scenery, and I decided what better change than a desert planet? So I went to Tatooine, did a bunch of things in the town, followed by a few things in the desert, then I finished off the town stuff, acquired HK-47, and set off into the desert again. I had HK-47 with me because he's the translator, and Mission because she had a sidequest thing going on, and then we all died six times in a row to the first Tusken Raider party we encountered. It was at this point that the fun-frustration ratio finally tipped all the way into frustration and I gave up, because fuck it, I'm not playing a game when doing so feels like a chore.

You didn't even get the full effect of Tatooine, then. Because you're running running running across endless desert, and every thirty seconds or so you get the cutscene for another fucking batch of Tuskens. I probably ran up a Tusken kill count exceeding Anakins, albeit not as effortlessly.

Also HK was awesome for dialogue but mostly useless in battle.

And even after you make piece with the Tuskens the scene triggers still have them jumping you all over the map. Tatooine was the worst fucking level.

The funny thing is that the plot device portion of Manaan was actually the good part. No more endless circle city bullshit, you go down and kill shit and cruise around in a deep sea suit. Probably my favorite portion this side of the Star Forge.

After finding a novelization of KOTOR 1, I at least have a better idea of what ya'll are alluding to, though apparently none of you wanted to talk about it directly. ;)

Revan's path in KOTOR 1, from what I can tell, swayed from light, to dark, and then either dark, light, or "grey," depending on what you choose. In the story, Revan as a person has a unique opportunity, based on circumstances and his experiences, to have knowledge of both sides before he makes a choice of which to follow.

I'm still looking for a novelization of KOTOR 2, so I can see what happened there, so I'll leave that for another time.

It does actually support a suspicion I have regarding the Force, and how it works. What Bioware was hinting at in KOTOR 1 (from what I'm inferring through author's bias of the game itself) was that there really isn't a Dark or Light side of the force at all. The Force... just is. It's how conscious beings perceive and think of it that changes how it takes shape and has influence. In other words, one's intent (whether conscious or subconscious; more or less whether you acknowledge those things within yourself or try to ignore them) tends to shape one's perspective of what the Force can do, and what it's capable of.

With this in mind, the dogma of either Sith or Jedi becomes visible as just that - dogma built up over thousands of years of warfare and conflict, and an unwillingness to ask difficult questions when one has the chance to do so. After all, it's easy to say "I was tainted by the Dark side" to pretend that all the desires and fears within you that were played on somehow aren't your fault - that you're a victim of it's influence.

Which is bullshit, in this perspective.

With this view, it isn't the Dark side's evil influence or the Light's soothing influence that are really at work, ever - as stated, the Force tends to take shape according to the desires and perceptions of those sensitive to it, and with that view, it's very easy to see that it can end up being a mirror for yourself. Since most people would do anything to avoid having to look at themselves in the mirror, it's pretty easy to see how mythos would build up about all the influence the Force has over people.

What makes it tricky is that since the Force responds to your intent and will (whether you're conscious of it or not, which is why those who avoid self-examination tend to be those most easily influenced by it), it can be easy to mistake the influence that minds have on the Force, and mistake it for the Force having influence on minds. The Force acts as a magnifier, not just for one's will, but also for one's strengths and faults both.

It can be easy to see how some older Jedi, unwilling to get into the nuances of these things with the new kids they're teaching, just stuck with "Dark side = bad" and left it at that, falling prey to the sin of expediency instead of getting into the subtleties of the Force's effects, as well as how conscious minds can tend to influence how the Force flows in a given area or place. Over time, because "previous generations thought of it this way", this becomes dogma to the point where people are unwilling to question it, fearing it's dark influence even in questions.

If a bunch of Sith tortured and mutilated people in a single spot for a while, it's fairly easy to infer that the place in which they did those things would be considered "tainted by the Dark side," their intent and will leaving strong traces behind of how it was used. By the same token, if a bunch of Jedi meditated and planted trees in a given area, their intent and will would also leave strong traces behind of how it was used, though with more peaceful effects. But in either case, one's will and intent are what is at play the most, and how the Force responds to that - not any inherent bias within the Force.

With this explanation, it's easy to liken the Force itself to water. Water itself is colorless and formless, flowing where it can. It can be tainted, carrying toxins and sickness where it flows, or it can be purified, bringing nourishment and life where it flows. Either way though, the nature of it does not change - only what it carries along with it.

The upshot is that to a degree, both the Jedi and the Sith are right. The Jedi are right in that one's attachments can inspire you to do stupid shit out of fear of loss of those attachments, but they're incorrect that one's passions and emotions should be stifled. The Sith are right in that passion is important for one's will, but they're wrong about using it to benefit only yourself at the expense of others.

Beneath both philosophies is fear. On the Jedi's side, it's a fear of one's own stronger emotions, preferring to simply avoid and stifle them rather than face the roots of why they appear within you. On the Sith's side, there's always the underlying fear that you're too weak or not good enough, and that you should take what you can before someone does it to you.

In both the Jedi & the Sith's case, it's avoidance of the real root of the problem on either side.

Now, the fun part about this view is that it still allows for the Jedi and Sith to exist, though in different forms. The Jedi would simply re-organize so that if you wanted to get married & have kids, etc., you can, but you just won't reach the rank of Master while you still have a foot in the "normal" world due to your real-world obligations of family. They'd mostly act as we envision and have seen Jedi act, but I'd imagine they'd be far more willing to face their inner demons.

The Sith would likely get somewhat less overtly moustache-twirlingly & puppy-kickingly evil, and instead be a bit more like the sorts of Jedi who journey alone through the wilds of the galaxy in search of knowledge and enlightenment. Some of them would reach the conclusion that the only obvious path to knowledge is to torture and enslave an entire world's population, sure, but others wouldn't. With this understanding in place, they also would have no issues rejoining the Force upon death, either.

Because mortal beings use and feel the force, those same mortal beings must be mindful that they are mortal and flawed, and that your understanding of how things are has a strong influence on what you see as possible in a given situation.

Josh wrote:You didn't even get the full effect of Tatooine, then. Because you're running running running across endless desert, and every thirty seconds or so you get the cutscene for another fucking batch of Tuskens. I probably ran up a Tusken kill count exceeding Anakins, albeit not as effortlessly.

Oh no, I did get the full effect of Tatooine. We died to the first Tusken Raider party we encounterd on our second desert trip. I had already killed way too many of the bastards during our first foray into the sands of Tatooine, along with large numbers of angry local wildlife. It's just that I levelled up while in town, and instead of the Raiders becoming easier because I was higher level, they instead started deploying battle priests and became immeasurably harder.

Any discussion of KoToR has to include the best of HK-47, perhaps the best RPG supporting character of all time.

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While Selfishness/Selflessness is a good angle from which to divide the Sith and the Jedi, I have a slightly different take on the whole Dark/Light nature of the Force. Do take in mind that this is my opinion on the matter and may be contradicted by varying levels of Canon, but I'm trying to construct it with the way things have been presented in the Movies and the EU I like.

Quite simply, it is about Balance versus Excess. It is being in control of your emotions versus letting your emotions control you. It's easy to give in to rage and anger, fear and desperation, hate and fury. It, similarly, is easy to give into joy and contentment. To a Sith, the emotions are pure, and there is strength in them. There is, this is true, and their connection with the Force allows them to tap into that power and use it, but there is almost always a cost. It's a shortcut that is easier, but not more powerful than true understanding and enlightenment. To a Jedi, understanding emotions and using them to guide you is essential, but only the first step it is, yes.

To a Force user, one of the most basic things one can do is move an object. How does that differ between the two? To Jedi, the force flows around and through every thing in the universe, living or not. The Force should not be made to do a thing, it must be convinced to do it. A Jedi reaches out with their feelings, and sees which of them resonates with the desire to move the most, and then uses that.

A Sith, however, will simply fill the area with their own emotions to allow them to then manipulate that into doing what they need to do. Sometimes the emotion they use will be the "Right" one, but not always or even often.

I've always been partial to the idea that extended use of the Dark Side of the Force has a pronounced effect on the body of the user, to reflect them putting additional strain upon themselves by using this type of power.

This does get into the question of "What about Happy Sith"? Or rather what about Sith who use "Positive" Emotions rather than negative. This is also likely a possibility, but I see it more as a recruiting tool than a sustainable method of application. Force powers require concentration, and while arguments can be made about adrenaline or anger focusing a person, joy tends to do the opposite. A Jedi who taps into Love or Joy can likely get some phenomenal returns, and through that perhaps get the idea that using one's Emotions in such a way might even be better/more direct than the normal methods. It's also likely the emotional high that Sith are exposed to that makes the rest of the Dark Side feel so good.

The Selflessness and Selfishness parts come into play here as well, because the Sith are mostly concerned with what they get out of the deal, while Jedi are more concerned with the overall balance of the Force and the emotional well-being of the Universe around them.

I'm rambling a bit here and I do need to leave soon, but these are some of my core thoughts on the whole Light/Dark Jedi/Sith side of things.

First of all Hotfoot, thank you for posting your view. It has subtle differences in the view I posted, but it certainly is no less valid, and fits the available evidence equally well. Moreover, it seems we agree on the Jedi vs. Sith dichotomy of awareness vs. desire.

As an additional point, both my view and Hotfoot's view, while they view the Jedi & Sith in terms of opposite perspectives on the Force and it's use, both views do certainly allow for other groups of Force users to form, which can get very interesting, particularly in light of how the Force is seen by it's adepts.

This does make me want to do something about Dathomir, since the Force Witch thing is... really dumb. I'd like to find a way to make the Force users of Dathomir interesting, as well as different from both Jedi and Sith both, but without the "double, double, toil and trouble, fire burn and cauldron bubble" nonsense I usually see about them.

I really like Hotfoot's take, and what it brings out for me is just how much the Jedi and Sith are militant orders that evolved by their competition. Love isn't exactly a useful emotion to focus on in a fight, so in order to be effective basically one has to go either dispassionate or angry.

What that conjures for me is an interesting side concept, a sect of Force users who do work through positive emotion, which would pretty much by nature make them a non-militant group. What makes the concept interesting to me is that they could catch the flak from the Jedi, due to using emotion to tap into the Force.

A group that channels the Force through positive emotions would likely be healers, probably focusing on dealing with mental traumas and emotional pains given that Star Wars healing tech can deal with physical ailments pretty well. They might also be more adept at some pure Force usages such as telekinesis, empathic sense, extrasensory perception, and the like.

My favorite character ever from a Star Wars game was a Sith Acolyte who began asking these exact questions about what would happen if he began channeling other emotions besides the old standbys of hate and anger and tried to manipulate the force with them. He theorized that only by learning to do so would he be able to achieve the holistic and complete understanding of the Dark Side of the Force required to become the one, true, Lord of the Sith. And that the only way for him to learn these things was to find a Jedi and force him to teach all he knew on the subject.

Things got somewhat insane from there.