LibriumArcana.Games

What the thread title asks.

The Borg Collective is portrayed and often referred to as 'evil', or at the least a 'very bad' civilization.

Do you think this label is justified?

I personally don't think the issue is as clear cut as some might suggest.

There's no question the BC forcibly assimilates other cultures and people, and wreaks destruction on a large scale. However, that can be said about many civilizations.

The Borg Collective has, in itself, eliminated crime, starvation, hate, etc. Every person in the Collective is assigned and equipped according to their specific aptitudes, working towards the common good (for the Borg).

In some ways, they have achieved a perfect society. Powerful, cooperative and lacking a great deal of the bad aspects of other individuality oriented societies.

So, what say you?

Evil.

They just happen to believe that they're doing you a favour. But they're still evil, enslavement always is.

they also remove autonomy, which makes the afformentioned removal of hunger and crime meaningless

Robert Walper wrote:What the thread title asks.
The Borg Collective is portrayed and often referred to as 'evil', or at the least a 'very bad' civilization.
Do you think this label is justified?

Yup.

I personally don't think the issue is as clear cut as some might suggest.

Gee, that comes a a surprise.

There's no question the BC forcibly assimilates other cultures and people, and wreaks destruction on a large scale. However, that can be said about many civilizations.

'Others do it too so it's okay for them to'-what was the name of that fallacy again?
How pray tell is that NOT evil?

In some ways, they have achieved a perfect society.

You gotta be shitting me.

Powerful, cooperative and lacking a great deal of the bad aspects of other individuality oriented societies.

And they completely lack each and every GOOD aspect of those.
Borg society is opressive, conformist, brutally expansionist, and completely and ruthlessly self-centered (WRT the society).
Sounds evil to me.

Crime and hate in the Borg civilization removed by one means only. The removal of choice. The sapients enslaved by the collective (yes enslaved, they are taken against their will and forced to serve) are stripped of everything that makes them thinking beings and remade into tools. It is a living death, locked away in the depths of your mind while an outside force controls your every action. It is not that they have elimated crime or hate, it is that they have taken away the ability of indiviuals to choice to do good or evil, the fact that no crime exist, that there is no hate is merely a side effect of the enslavement process. The Borg take sapients to serve Borg and for no other reason.

This makes the Borg a soceity of slavers. A soceity that activity seeks out fresh victums to enslave, to rob of even the basic control of their own body. I submit for your considerations that if the US government were to do such a thing to terror suspects the outcry would be great. Indeed the US as not even done a fraction of what the Borg have done but as attracted great protest. How then can the actions of the Borg looked over?

Also, there is noone who can enjoy the benefits of no crime or hate or hunger. The drones are simply incapable of doing anything but mindlessly doing their assigned task. What does it matter that there is no crime when no one realizes it? What does it matter that there is no hate when all other emotion has been banished because of it? When no one realizes they require food, who cares that there is no hunger?

I reject the idea that they are the perfect society. The perfect society is not built on the backs of beings who are robbed of their freedom, will and even their very bodies. The perfect society does not prey on soceities who military weaker than itself. The perfect society is not a cruel self serving soceity who sees all others has fodder for it's own will. The society of the Borg in so far it exist (which it can be agrued that it does not exist, as it is a group of mindless slaves serving a single or small group of masters, this is not a soceity, a society requires thinking beings capable to making choices).

The Borg are perhaps the crueliest of powers in Science Fiction. While many civilizations will rob you of your life, your dignity and property. They at least don't make your very mind and body a prison. They do not rob you of your very will. The Borg do and do it often and without a second thought.

I suppose that the borg are only ever outdone by the Daleks or the Cybermen...

Because even those two have a similar modus operandi, they just go about doing it a little better

This is very possible but I've never seen Doctor Who.

This is very possible but I've never seen Doctor Who.

The Borg are simply Cyberman ripoffs... right down to the chanting of "Resistance is Futile" and wanton assimilation of every living being in its path. But the cybermen are optimised for being challenging to the one-and-only Doctor Who.

The Daleks, as of Parting of the Ways have been indulging in 'DNA Harvesting', killing human vagrants, killers and criminals and then using their DNA to genetically engineer Dalek mutants.

They are both extremely good at their jobs of slaughtering, killing and assimilating, utilizing the most efficient method possible: Overwhelming Firepower, then harvest the corpse. A single Dalek managed, single-plungeredly, to kill hundreds of people in a single episode, each of them were high-tech futuristic mercenaries with advanced assault rifles... and the Dalek barely got scratched.

That's what makes them outdo the Borg... the borg don't harvest corpses, but the Daleks care little for the state of your pulse. And the cybermen don't use the vampire technique, and just assimilate you outright. But they also have another neat trick: you retain conscious action, you just so happen to be a brainwashed servant who'll do the bidding of your master to the best of your ability. The borg don't do that, and when they do, they don't do it nearly as well.

They have none of the negative aspects of society--hate, hunger, crime etc--but they also lack the good parts of a society. In a certain kind of sense they do not even have a culture; I'm not even sure I could call them a civilization...

*looks up precise definition of civilization*

Dictionary.com wrote: 1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.
3. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
4. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.
5. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

n 1: a society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations); "the people slowly progressed from barbarism to civilization" [syn: civilisation] 2: the social process whereby societies achieve civilization [syn: civilisation] 3: a particular society at a particular time and place; "early Mayan civilization" [syn: culture, civilisation] 4: the quality of excellence in thought and manners and taste; "a man of intellectual refinement"; "he is remembered for his generosity and civilization" [syn: refinement, civilisation]

Not counting those definitions that use civilization as part of the definition a common idea seems to be the inclusion of arts and complex political and social constructions. The Borg do not have any form of art and any politics they have are neutered into something I would barely pass off as a viable example of the word. They might call their 'each drone to its specific task' a social institution, but I would find that lackluster...

Now all that gibberish said, I find it hard to call anything evil, but their actions are hailed by many as being evil. Who am I to challenge an entire system of morals? So I suppose they are evil, in that they remove all choice, all individuality, for such paltry gains as removing crime and discrimination and supplying basic wants. Whoopi!

*********

What I find more interesting is how this very question would be answered in a more classically Eastern civilization; over here in the West individual rights and freedoms are taken for granted and people look at you funny if you suggest there are other ways to go about life--but in the East things are a 180 flip. The goal in such collectivist cultures is to better the group, period. They find our Western idea of self esteem to be a curious one; where we try to express our differences, they value fitting in.

So of course people in western cultures will condemn the Borg if for no other reason than the forced removal of individualism--but how might other cultures look at this? I suspect they might condemn the Borg--if at all--for their methods, but not for their goals, where we in the West condemn for both their methods AND their goals. But I of course cannot know for sure, it just is an interesting thought my psychology class has inspired...

The Borg are an attrocity under so-called Eastern values as well. The so-called Eastern values (which are far from confined to the East) stresses the virtues conformity and obediance to legitimate authority so society is well has at its heart the assumption that if this is the case, the individual will prosper, an implicit quid pro quo. The army will protect him, the bureaucrats will run public services correctly, the police will protect him, his neighbors will behave properly, and his family and business will prosper. The individual, to the Borg, is nothing but a disposable instrument. It is totalitariansim devoid of even the pretence of heroic and noble trappings that both facism and communism employed. The individual, his family, his people, they all are slaves to the hive.

For the sake of clarity, I should point out I'm not suggesting the BC is any type of "perfect" society. I was merely pointing out that certain aspects (ie: lack of crime, hunger, unemployment, hate, etc) are a goal that many societies would (should) strive for.

Although obviously others have pointed out in doing away with these they are doing away with a great deal other aspects as well (love, choice, etc).

In case anyone is interested, what sparked this line of thought and questioning is the Voyager episode "Unity". A group of Borg survivors, having been disconnected from the Borg mind, actually wanted to re initiate a Collective hive mind to bring peace and cooperation among all their members, since their group had divided into many seperate factions fighting with eachother.

According to them, the Borg hive mind was actually the least offensive aspect of assimilation, and actively wanted to go back to that way of life, seeing it as the best choice for peace and cooperation amongst themselves. They eventually did so.

The Borg are about as "evil" as a hive of ants. Granted, technologically superior ants, but insects nonetheless. "Evil" is a side-effect of free will, which for the most part the Borg entirely seem to lack; which, in fact, they seem to do their damndest to squash. They are not malicious for its own sake; they take no pleasure from their actions; they are simply unrelentingly efficient about maximizing available resources when they can, just like any lower order organism does unthinkingly.

--The Elder Dan

elderdan wrote:The Borg are about as "evil" as a hive of ants. Granted, technologically superior ants, but insects nonetheless. "Evil" is a side-effect of free will, which for the most part the Borg entirely seem to lack; which, in fact, they seem to do their damndest to squash. They are not malicious for its own sake; they take no pleasure from their actions; they are simply unrelentingly efficient about maximizing available resources when they can, just like any lower order organism does unthinkingly.

--The Elder Dan

*nods* That's almost word for word on how I'd describe their existence.

Robert Walper wrote:*nods* That's almost word for word on how I'd describe their existence.

Problem is, people aren't ants. People can reason, while ants can't.

Plus, ants don't go and make war on, say, bees because they want to turn them into ants. Unlike the Borg or religious fundies.

The Collective attacks people without provication and subjects them to a form of slavery more total than anything in human history. Evil.

I would point out that the Borg are unlike the ant hive in that they are not ruled by instinct. They have a directing intellgence and are able to craft intellegent members of the Collective to direct the whole.

Examples are Loctius of Borg and the Borg Queen.

The directing personnalities freely chose to enslave their neighbors for the gain of the Borg. Evil.

The Cleric wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:*nods* That's almost word for word on how I'd describe their existence.

Problem is, people aren't ants. People can reason, while ants can't.

No one said people are ants, nor was it claimed they are capable of reason. Regardless, the analogy is sound.

Batman wrote:Plus, ants don't go and make war on, say, bees because they want to turn them into ants. Unlike the Borg or religious fundies.

Ants, however, will in fact utilize other species of insects for their own purposes (the exact example I don't recall, but it's a form of harvesting and milking the other species for food). Furthermore, ants do in fact make war, as it's been observed ants will engage other colonies in large scale attacks.

Walper...

Why are you arguing that the Borg aren't evil? Why does 'lack of malicious intent or pleasure' equate that it isn't evil? There's a clear difference between evil and intent. Hitler believed that he was in the right when he massacred the jews, that still doesn't make him a good person.

Cynical Cat wrote:The Collective attacks people without provication

Untrue. The Borg only attack anything if said target has something of value they desire, or in self defense. Otherwise, they literally ignore you.

This is no different than a grizzly bear which attacks another for food or self defense.

and subjects them to a form of slavery more total than anything in human history. Evil.

Actually, modern society also forces people to work to live as well, if they wish the benefit of proper food, housing, luxuries, etc.

So far, the only arguement for the Borg as being evil is pointing out they eliminate individuality and choice. Which, while I find undesireable myself, I do not see as evil. I don't desire to die either, however I do understand death is not evil.

Dakarne wrote:Walper...

Why are you arguing that the Borg aren't evil?

Because I've seen no evidence they are.

A rabid dog is dangerous to humans, and must be dealt with accordingly. Including the option to kill it . This does not make the dog evil.

Why does 'lack of malicious intent or pleasure' equate that it isn't evil?

See above dog analogy.

There's a clear difference between evil and intent. Hitler believed that he was in the right when he massacred the jews, that still doesn't make him a good person.

That's because his reasoning was irrational, illogical and based upon prejudice.

Because I've seen no evidence they are.

I've thought it many times, I've said it a few, and I'm going to say it now:

You're a bloody moron.

The Borg are knowingly, and willfully, killing, slaughtering, and worst of all: fully enslaving millions upon millions of people. The Borg queen, the one in control of the collective, is sentient, and she orders each and every assimilation, each and every murder, each and every sickening thing that the Borg collective has done.

If that isn't evil, Walper, then I probably have no freaking clue what actually IS evil.

Or, alternately: You're a bloody moron, like I said before.

Dakarne wrote:

Because I've seen no evidence they are.

The Borg are knowingly, and willfully, killing, slaughtering, and worst of all: fully enslaving millions upon millions of people.

I take it then you consider ants evil, as they do the same thing on a relative scale?

The Borg queen, the one in control of the collective, is sentient, and she orders each and every assimilation,

Not true. Assimilation is a default action of Borg forces.

each and every murder,

The only time the Borg have killed is in response to others trying to attack them first. Otherwise they prefer to either ignore others or incorperate others into their Collective, giving them all available benefits.

each and every sickening thing that the Borg collective has done.

A lot of things ants do is sickening to many people, while I subscribe it's just nature. So you assert they are evil?

If that isn't evil, Walper, then I probably have no freaking clue what actually IS evil.

Humor me. Define what evil is.

I take it then you consider ants evil, as they do the same thing on a relative scale?

It's their nature.

There's nothing natural about the borg. They are a creation, not an evolution.

Not true. Assimilation is a default action of Borg forces.

Proof. Last time I checked, the: "I've heard those same words from thousands of species across thousands of worlds, since long before you were created..." quote still rang true.

The only time the Borg have killed is in response to others trying to attack them first. Otherwise they prefer to either ignore others or incorperate others into their Collective, giving them all available benefits.

There is no benefit to being a Borg Drone, Walper.

A lot of things ants do is sickening to many people, while I subscribe it's just nature. So you assert they are evil?

The Borg are controlled by a single cyborg woman with megalomania. There is nothing natural about that, and there is nothing natural about a race of cyborgs, as, need I remind you, cyborg parts need to be created, and are too complex for such things as ants to develop.

Humor me. Define what evil is.

Anything that knowingly, and willfully, harms life without a greater purpose.

A scientist using animal blood to develop a cure for a disease: not evil.

The borg collective assimilating and enslaving millions of unwilling lives, only to further their own goal of conquest: evil.