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I've picked the Minbari because of the all the younger races, they are suppose to be the most advanced, having artifical gravity of their own and stealth techonolgy that distorts sensors, along with effective armor.

I've also chosen the TOS Federation from Star Trek due to the fact while less techonolgically advanced, it is better at warfare than anyother version of the Federation expect perhaps the late DS-9 one, which in my humble opinion would mop the fucking floor with the Minbari. I would expect a Sovergen class to eat 2 or 3 Minbari crusiers without any real trouble, unless the crew was a pack of idiots.

So my question is can the Minbari wage war on the TOS Federation in any meaningful fashion?

Nah, even though they have been preparing for a thousand years to fight the next Shadow war, they just don't have enough infrastructure to absorb the retalitory attacks.

Albert Green, trekie he is, pretty much plots out how they would perform in his story.

OK, firstly admitting I'm a B5 ignorant individual...

Couldn't the Minbari call upon allies against the Federation, say perhaps even the humans? Or would they most likely side with the Federation?

The Bab-5 races aren't much given to alliances. Also the Minbari are the most advanced of the 'younger' races and know it.

As for Bab-5 humans... Walper in Babylon 5 the Minbari almost wiped out humanity before the series started. The Earth Alliance is not gonna be running to their recuse any time soon.

EA would also be eaten alive by Starfleet. No artificial gravity, which means accelleration and therefore maneuverability are going to suck. They'd be sitting ducks for the Feds.
Offhand I'd have to say 'insufficient data'. We know little to nothing about the infrastructure of both combattants-no numbers on fleet strength, industrial capacity etc. While individually the Starfleet ships have an advantage thanks to shields they're matched closely enough that even moderate numerical superiority could give it to either side.

OK: We know that beam weapons on a Minbari war cruiser havea firepower in the mid-high kiloton range (85k TW upper limit from Babtech, I will be conservative and cut it down a few orders of magnitude, even though it is probably in the low mt range) while from the calcs on SDN we know the TOS phasers have a yield in the single digit kiloton

Now, we also know that the Minbari warcruisers carry 6 missile launchers which carry 20 metagon yield missiles (again, from babtech) and the feds have torpedoes of at most tripple, and probably closer to double that yield.

ADvantage: beam weapons: Minbari
Advantage: Torps: Feds

Now, defenses. No shields vs. shields.

However, Fed shields, while handy, may not be able to sustain multiple missile AND fusion cannon hits. While the Minbari would be fairly able to shrug off phasers on their hull, and can intercept with neutron cannons and tractor beams, any incoming torpedoes, of which the federation ships cannot fire a particlarly large number at any given time.

Fed torps are FTL and real space and unlike nukes, will blow full force when you kill them with point defence. See the Black Star for how well Minbari handle proximity blasts. We don't know how well Minbari hulls will handle chain reaction phaser weaponry, although we do know it handles DET beam weapons decently.

The Feds can crank out photons at a good rate and have withstood close range nuke blasts multiple times.

I rate the Minbari's chances as poor.

Cynical Cat wrote:Fed torps are FTL

When launched FTL. Evidence for FTL shots at STL targets would be?

and real space and unlike nukes, will blow full force when you kill them with point defence.

Evidence for that if you please.

See the Black Star for how well Minbari handle proximity blasts

And of course Minbari PD will let a PT (which is a fraction of the yield of that blast) equally close.

The Feds can crank out photons at a good rate and have withstood close range nuke blasts multiple times.

Omnidirectional KT range nukes vs KT range DEW. Yeah, that's exactly the same thing.
The E-nil was in danger from a 20th century air-to-air nuke.

Batman wrote:EA would also be eaten alive by Starfleet. No artificial gravity, which means accelleration and therefore maneuverability are going to suck. They'd be sitting ducks for the Feds.
Offhand I'd have to say 'insufficient data'. We know little to nothing about the infrastructure of both combattants-no numbers on fleet strength, industrial capacity etc. While individually the Starfleet ships have an advantage thanks to shields they're matched closely enough that even moderate numerical superiority could give it to either side.

On the TOS side there are about a hundred member worlds in their Federation. Some are like Earth, Vulcan, and Andor; some are just agro worlds. These might just be the homeworlds, though, there is some contention on that. This is also not too long after that fake war that they had with the Klingons, the one that the evolved aliens said was giving them a headache and put a stop to. I think I remeber there being a cold war-esque build up to that war. Take that as you will.

On the Minbari side, one of the better estimates puts them at about 40 worlds that have been extensively developed for atleast a thousand years. They have also been preparing for the next Shadow War. This is big, their entire society is geared to fight it, though the belief that the Shadows will return is waning in the B5 era, they possibily have a huge reserve fleet of older ships. Their social system puts a bit of a damper on how quickly they can find crews, but the ships seem to have a good degree of automation, so if they're willing to skimp on damage control, they can put massive fleets into action.

I don't know. Maybe this comes down to commanders more than anything else. Kirk versus Neroon, any takers?

Edit: Spelling and grammar.

I think Kirk is the more flexible and on his feet commander. However Neroon may be more able to send others to die than Kirk.

Batman wrote: When launched FTL. Evidence for FTL shots at STL targets would be?

Torpedoes are FTL weapons fired by ships with FTL sensors. Use your brain. STL targets are easier to hit.

and real space and unlike nukes, will blow full force when you kill them with point defence.

Evidence for that if you please.

Antimatter warheads.

And of course Minbari PD will let a PT (which is a fraction of the yield of that blast) equally close.

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

The Feds can crank out photons at a good rate and have withstood close range nuke blasts multiple times.

Omnidirectional KT range nukes vs KT range DEW. Yeah, that's exactly the same thing.

Don't evade the fucking issue. 2 megatons at a distance, omindirectional, took at the Minbari flagship. The Minbari have demonstrated great vulnerability to such weapons.

The E-nil was in danger from a 20th century air-to-air nuke.[/quote]
Direct quote? Because I recall their shields being non functional at the time.


And a new point. Speed. Minbari speed is merely superior to Earthforce ships, which have no internal compensators of any kind. Compared to Trek ships, they crawl.

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

If they cant, it would be a suprise. They have tractor beams and weapons which are capable of easily intercepting fighters and presumably earthforce torps and missiles.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

If they cant, it would be a suprise. They have tractor beams and weapons which are capable of easily intercepting fighters and presumably earthforce torps and missiles.

Vastly slower Earthforce gear. Fighters pulling single digit Gs versus FTL torps. And if they intercept at close range they still take damage from the anti-matter explosion.

Cynical Cat wrote:

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

If they cant, it would be a suprise. They have tractor beams and weapons which are capable of easily intercepting fighters and presumably earthforce torps and missiles.

Vastly slower Earthforce gear. Fighters pulling single digit Gs versus FTL torps. And if they intercept at close range they still take damage from the anti-matter explosion.

The torps arent always moving at FTL. Of course, the Minbari could always wait in hyperspace for the feds to come out of warp...

The E-Nil was in danger, Batman, from a Air to Air nuke AFTER it had undergone a never before attempted time-jump, and wound up heavily damaged in 1960's Earth atmosphere with no shields and minimal power.

Not exactly the same thing as them being fully powered, armed, and ready for battle.

Comrade Tortoise wrote: The torps arent always moving at FTL. Of course, the Minbari could always wait in hyperspace for the feds to come out of warp...

That's true. But Trek impulse is faster than B5 STL by a considerable margin. Even Minbari and Centauri who possess inertial compensators are in the same league as Earthforce ships (although superior). Inferior propulsion tech means the torps are going to be much harder to target, which will be aggravated by their small size. And one cannot hang in B5 hyperspace forever if you are a member of the younger races. The Minbari have a serious deficet in this area.

And evidence for high performing Minbari point defence please.

It is conceeded they will mop the floor with Starfleet security. I mention this only because I would really like to see the Narn wipe the floor with Starfleet security.

Cynical Cat wrote:

Batman wrote: When launched FTL. Evidence for FTL shots at STL targets would be?

Torpedoes are FTL weapons fired by ships with FTL sensors. Use your brain. STL targets are easier to hit.

Actually when you're launching from FTL they are far HARDER to hit thanks to the much greater relative velocity. Every instance of a PT launched at Warp was at another Target at Warp. Relative velocity being damn near nothing.

and real space and unlike nukes, will blow full force when you kill them with point defence.

Evidence for that if you please.

Antimatter warheads.

Which are hard pressed to achieve full reactivity even when working as designed. If intercepted a large part of the reactant will be scattered by the initial anihilation.

And of course Minbari PD will let a PT (which is a fraction of the yield of that blast) equally close.

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

The Battle of the Line, Endgame.

The Feds can crank out photons at a good rate and have withstood close range nuke blasts multiple times.

Omnidirectional KT range nukes vs KT range DEW. Yeah, that's exactly the same thing.

Don't evade the fucking issue. 2 megatons at a distance, omindirectional, took at the Minbari flagship. The Minbari have demonstrated great vulnerability to such weapons.

Which has what exactly to do with Fed shield resilience? Ability to withstand multi-KT omnidirectional warhead not neccessarily equals ability to withstand multi-KT DEW.

The E-nil was in danger from a 20th century air-to-air nuke.

Direct quote? Because I recall their shields being non functional at the time.

I withdraw the point because DS is right, those were unusual circumstances.

And a new point. Speed. Minbari speed is merely superior to Earthforce ships, which have no internal compensators of any kind. Compared to Trek ships, they crawl.

Numbers, please.

Batman wrote:
Actually when you're launching from FTL they are far HARDER to hit thanks to the much greater relative velocity. Every instance of a PT launched at Warp was at another Target at Warp. Relative velocity being damn near nothing.

Wrong. The relative velocity is higher if you are firing at a FTL target unless you share the same course. Once More Into the Breach, Kor turns a Bird of Prey around and fires a burst of torpedoes at pursuing Jem Hadar ships.

Which are hard pressed to achieve full reactivity even when working as designed. If intercepted a large part of the reactant will be scattered by the initial anihilation.

Yes, that's true. See Black Star for how effective those explosions can be.

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

The Battle of the Line, Endgame.

Against Earthforce, who can't fly their ships past single digit Gs because of lack of compensators. Even with superior engines and compensators the Minbari aren't that much faster. That's nothing like trying to hit a photon torpedo that is only 2 meters long and is capable of the speeds we saw in the funeral in "Wrath of Khan."

Don't evade the fucking issue. 2 megatons at a distance, omindirectional, took at the Minbari flagship. The Minbari have demonstrated great vulnerability to such weapons.

Which has what exactly to do with Fed shield resilience? Ability to withstand multi-KT omnidirectional warhead not neccessarily equals ability to withstand multi-KT DEW.

It means the Minbari will die by proximity blasts, which is my point. Fed shields have survived nuke blasts, lasers, anti-matter explosions, hard radiation, and asteroid base wrecking Romulan plasma best. The can take multi KT DEW. For how long is another issue and the lack of firm numbers on Minbari and Star Trek weapons make that tricky.

And a new point. Speed. Minbari speed is merely superior to Earthforce ships, which have no internal compensators of any kind. Compared to Trek ships, they crawl.

Numbers, please.

.8 light speed very quickly, going to warp scene in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture."

Cynical Cat wrote:

Batman wrote: Actually when you're launching from FTL they are far HARDER to hit thanks to the much greater relative velocity. Every instance of a PT launched at Warp was at another Target at Warp. Relative velocity being damn near nothing.

Wrong. The relative velocity is higher if you are firing at a FTL target unless you share the same course.

Bullshit. What the course is is irrelevant for the relative velocity.

Once More Into the Breach, Kor turns a Bird of Prey around and fires a burst of torpedoes at pursuing Jem Hadar ships.

TNG, inadmissible evidence. Unless those ships flashed past one another in a microsecond relative velocity was well below c anyway.

Which are hard pressed to achieve full reactivity even when working as designed. If intercepted a large part of the reactant will be scattered by the initial anihilation.

Yes, that's true. See Black Star for how effective those explosions can be.

Which were nukes/thermonukes working as designed. Not M/AM going off prematurely. Care to make a point anytime soon?

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.

The Battle of the Line, Endgame.

Against Earthforce, who can't fly their ships past single digit Gs because of lack of compensators.

Um-missiles aren't crewed last time I checked.

Even with superior engines and compensators the Minbari aren't that much faster.

You know that because?

That's nothing like trying to hit a photon torpedo that is only 2 meters long and is capable of the speeds we saw in the funeral in "Wrath of Khan."

A speed that curiously enough is never evidenced in combat. Not that speed is particularly important, of course. Accelleration and by extension maneuverability is. Accelelration and maneuverability of a photorp are nothing to brag about. Not that their combat speed is.

Don't evade the fucking issue. 2 megatons at a distance, omindirectional, took at the Minbari flagship.

2 2MT nukes damaged it to the point where it died of secondary explosions.
To achieve the same with, say, 500KT PTs already requires 16 torpedoes. When was the last time we saw a Fed ship stand up to sixteen torpedoes?

The Minbari have demonstrated great vulnerability to such weapons.

As have Fed ships every time they're taken down by photorps.

It means the Minbari will die by proximity blasts, which is my point.

Which PTs may or may not be able to achieve, and which require a rather largish number of torpedoes (and 500KT is generous for TOS torpedoes the observable yield of which ranges from none whatsoever (ST V) through cannonball (ST VI) and TNT level (ST II, III) to probably KT level (ST TMP).

And a new point. Speed. Minbari speed is merely superior to Earthforce ships, which have no internal compensators of any kind. Compared to Trek ships, they crawl.

Numbers, please.

.8 light speed very quickly, going to warp scene in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture."

Where they were using Warp drive. Not that they ever quantified the speed in any meaningful way. Since the Warp scale isn't linear beyond Warp 1 there's no reason to assume it is linear below it.

Batman wrote: Bullshit. What the course is is irrelevant for the relative velocity.

No it isn't. If I'm going 5X towards a someting that coming at me at 8C, we are closeing at 13X. Basic physics.

Once More Into the Breach, Kor turns a Bird of Prey around and fires a burst of torpedoes at pursuing Jem Hadar ships.

TNG, inadmissible evidence. Unless those ships flashed past one another in a microsecond relative velocity was well below c anyway.

It's fucking Trek with Parsec range sensors. The were both at warp. And completely relevant.

Which were nukes/thermonukes working as designed. Not M/AM going off prematurely. Care to make a point anytime soon?

Both omnidirectional blast weapons that release most of their energy in the form of hard radiation in space. Do you care to address the point?

Torpedo yield has been shown to be highly variable. Since 2mt at a distance is deadly, the Minbari can't snear at them. Demonstrate Minbari ability to intercept and kill a PT.[/quote]

The Battle of the Line, Endgame.

Against Earthforce, who can't fly their ships past single digit Gs because of lack of compensators.[/quote]
Um-missiles aren't crewed last time I checked.[/quote]
Inferior propulsion technology and I don't recall seeing any impressive missle speeds in B5. Even the Shadow Planet killer missles were slow enough that other ships to move into place and shield Sheridan's white star.

A speed that curiously enough is never evidenced in combat. Not that speed is particularly important, of course. Accelleration and by extension maneuverability is. Accelelration and maneuverability of a photorp are nothing to brag about. Not that their combat speed is.

Speed we see in warp combat, firing from orbit to circle half a planet in seconds. That's doman good. Star Trek VI for maneuverbility. Not that the Minbari are going to be able to dodge it.

Don't evade the fucking issue. 2 megatons at a distance, omindirectional, took at the Minbari flagship.

2 2MT nukes damaged it to the point where it died of secondary explosions.
To achieve the same with, say, 500KT PTs already requires 16 torpedoes. When was the last time we saw a Fed ship stand up to sixteen torpedoes?

The Minbari have demonstrated great vulnerability to such weapons.

As have Fed ships every time they're taken down by photorps.

It means the Minbari will die by proximity blasts, which is my point.

Which PTs may or may not be able to achieve, and which require a rather largish number of torpedoes (and 500KT is generous for TOS torpedoes the observable yield of which ranges from none whatsoever (ST V) through cannonball (ST VI) and TNT level (ST II, III) to probably KT level (ST TMP).

Where they were using Warp drive. Not that they ever quantified the speed in any meaningful way. Since the Warp scale isn't linear beyond Warp 1 there's no reason to assume it is linear below it.

Wrong. At that point they were at impulse. They got up to .8C turned on the warp drive and then the wormhole happened because the warp drive was malfunctioning.

Cynical Cat wrote:

Batman wrote: Bullshit. What the course is is irrelevant for the relative velocity.

No it isn't. If I'm going 5X towards a someting that coming at me at 8C, we are closeing at 13X. Basic physics.

Extremely inadequate wording on my part. Differing courses not NECCESSARILY matter much to relative speed.. If you're going 269 degrees at Warp 7.999 and he's going 270 degrees at Warp 8 relative velocity is still going to be below c.

Once More Into the Breach, Kor turns a Bird of Prey around and fires a burst of torpedoes at pursuing Jem Hadar ships.

TNG, inadmissible evidence. Unless those ships flashed past one another in a microsecond relative velocity was well below c anyway.

It's fucking Trek with Parsec range sensors.

Evidence for Parsec range targeting sensors.

They were both at warp.

Evidence for relative velocities being FTL.

And completely relevant.

TNG. Not relevant.

Which were nukes/thermonukes working as designed. Not M/AM going off prematurely. Care to make a point anytime soon?

Both omnidirectional blast weapons that release most of their energy in the form of hard radiation in space. Do you care to address the point?

The point being that a prematurely detonated M/AM device will spread most of its reactants all across empty space with most if not all of it reacting piecemeal/not at all. Unlike a nuke.

Against Earthforce, who can't fly their ships past single digit Gs because of lack of compensators.

Um-missiles aren't crewed last time I checked.

Inferior propulsion technology and I don't recall seeing any impressive missle speeds in B5. Even the Shadow Planet killer missles were slow enough that other ships to move into place and shield Sheridan's white star.

Which doesn't say beans without knowing the performance of those ships and the distance they where from Sheridan's White Star.

Speed we see in warp combat,

Which is irrelevant against STL targets,

firing from orbit to circle half a planet in seconds.

Which one would that be?

That's doman good. Star Trek VI for maneuverbility.

Which is easily outdone by modern day missiles.

Not that the Minbari are going to be able to dodge it.

Why should they? If that's the limit of photorp agility they can shoot them down with impunity.

Where they were using Warp drive. Not that they ever quantified the speed in any meaningful way. Since the Warp scale isn't linear beyond Warp 1 there's no reason to assume it is linear below it.

Wrong. At that point they were at impulse. They got up to .8C turned on the warp drive and then the wormhole happened because the warp drive was malfunctioning.

They were using Warp drive unless you have evidence to the contrary. And they NEVER stated 0.8c. Sulu kept calling out Warp factors.

Batman wrote: Evidence for relative velocities being FTL.

The Jem Hadar are pursuing at maximum speed. Kor turns the ship to face them and fires PTs at them. Most definitely a very high combined speed.

The point being that a prematurely detonated M/AM device will spread most of its reactants all across empty space with most if not all of it reacting piecemeal/not at all. Unlike a nuke.

Evasion. A nuke won't even detonate with a point defence kill, an antimatter warhead will. Some of the antimatter will react there and the rest will be scattered along with hard radiation (and some plasma). Some of that will hit the Minbari, especially with conservation of momentum carrying it forward. Close range PD kills (and we see B5 fight at very close ranges) are still hazardous.

firing from orbit to circle half a planet in seconds.

Which one would that be?

Funeral, Wrath of Khan. Also hitting a D-7 warp strafing while at impulse in "Elaan of Troyus".

Star Trek VI for maneuverbility.

Which is easily outdone by modern day missiles.

Which can't go FTL or engage targets at 70,000km (Elaan again) and hit almost instantaneously. More than good enough to hit a warcruiser, which fights in visual range most of the time. And yes, fighting outside of visual range is something TOS Trek does often.

Not that the Minbari are going to be able to dodge it.

Why should they? If that's the limit of photorp agility they can shoot them down with impunity.

Evidence of them hitting 2 meter long objects travellling at great speed? Something much smaller than a B5 fighter and much, much faster? Oh, that's right, none.

They were using Warp drive unless you have evidence to the contrary. And they NEVER stated 0.8c. Sulu kept calling out Warp factors.

Yes, Warp 1 is C. Star Trek measures speed in warp factors. They were using impulse, go up to .8 Warp or .8 C and turned on the warp drive. Then wham wormhole because it was malfunciton.

Elaan, huh?

Did you listen to the ranges as they were called out? They weren't dropping enough for 1c, let alone above it. Lord Poe handily eviscerated this a while ago guys, sorry.

The only observations of P-Torps fired from a FTL ship and hitting a target are against large, stationary opposition.. In the Voyager era.

Still, with kt-ranged torps with decent ranges, the Feds have a notable advantage. But there's just one problem: How many ships do they have? Not many; they had 12 Constitution classes and we saw very few other capital ships.

SirNitram wrote:Elaan, huh?

Did you listen to the ranges as they were called out? They weren't dropping enough for 1c, let alone above it. Lord Poe handily eviscerated this a while ago guys, sorry.

Do you have a link to that? It would make interesting reading.

Still, with kt-ranged torps with decent ranges, the Feds have a notable advantage. But there's just one problem: How many ships do they have? Not many; they had 12 Constitution classes and we saw very few other capital ships.

Numbers pre movie era for the Feds are definitely low. Do we have good numbers on the Minbari?

Cynical Cat wrote:

Batman wrote: Evidence for relative velocities being FTL.

The Jem Hadar are pursuing at maximum speed. Kor turns the ship to face them and fires PTs at them. Most definitely a very high combined speed.

Garbage. If both were visible in the same frame relative velocity was well below c. If the engagement took longer than a microsecond relative velocity was well below c.

The point being that a prematurely detonated M/AM device will spread most of its reactants all across empty space with most if not all of it reacting piecemeal/not at all. Unlike a nuke.

Evasion. A nuke won't even detonate with a point defence kill,

So? The Black Star nukes weren't killed by PD.

an antimatter warhead will. Some of the antimatter will react there and the rest will be scattered along with hard radiation (and some plasma). Some of that will hit the Minbari, especially with conservation of momentum carrying it forward. Close range PD kills (and we see B5 fight at very close ranges) are still hazardous.

You do realize how infinitesimal a fraction of the original yield that constitutes.
And since we also see B5 fight at very long ranges what has that to do with anything?

firing from orbit to circle half a planet in seconds.

Which one would that be?

Funeral, Wrath of Khan.

IOW not in combat.

Also hitting a D-7 warp strafing while at impulse in "Elaan of Troyus".

See Nit's reply.

Star Trek VI for maneuverbility.

Which is easily outdone by modern day missiles.

Which can't go FTL or engage targets at 70,000km (Elaan again) and hit almost instantaneously.

PTs can't go FTL either. Elaan was decidedly STL.

More than good enough to hit a warcruiser, which fights in visual range most of the time.

Define 'most of the time', please. We see BVR combat in B5 as often as we see knifefighting ranges. And unlike Trek ships the warcruiser has PD.

Not that the Minbari are going to be able to dodge it.

Why should they? If that's the limit of photorp agility they can shoot them down with impunity.

Evidence of them hitting 2 meter long objects travellling at great speed?

Evidence for said speed in a combat situation? Because the TOS era movies sure as hell don't show that.

Something much smaller than a B5 fighter and much, much faster?

See above.

Oh, that's right, none.

For PTs actually being that fast. Yup, that's right.

They were using Warp drive unless you have evidence to the contrary. And they NEVER stated 0.8c. Sulu kept calling out Warp factors.

Yes, Warp 1 is C. Star Trek measures speed in warp factors. They were using impulse, go up to .8 Warp or .8 C and turned on the warp drive. Then wham wormhole because it was malfunciton.

Evidence for
a)them using impule when the whole purpose of the operation was to test the Warp drive, and
b) Warp .8 being .8c as the Warp scale is NOT linear?