LibriumArcana.Games

Alright, which one is more powerful? Which one will come up as the winner if those two Empires clash each other in a full-scale war?

As has been done over and over again, the Empire has the edge. While the two are in the same ballpark, the Galactic Empire has an FTL, STL, communications, and slight firepower advantage in space, and probably a strategic industrial and economic advantage as well.

On the ground they're more equal, and I would wager the Imperium has a slight edge there, but with the Empire's space superiority it's pretty moot.


In short, it's not the one-sided gang rape that SWvST is, but the Imperium will be fighting a constant losing battle and ultimately get worn down by attrition.

So... more or less how it is in WH40K anyhow? lol

Fighting a constant losing battle and getting slowly worn down to attrition.

Actually, in 40K, the Imperium is very much not losing. It's fairly stable as far as the war goes; the Orks are largely occupied by the Hive Fleet that was detoured into their territory, the Tau are sitting tight, and after the Eye of Terror Campaign the Chaos forces were more or less beaten back. Ghazakull Mag Uruk Thrakka was defeated yet again in the Third War for Armageddon, and is currently on the run back to Ork territory.

The biggest worry right now is the Tyranids. They've got more Hive Fleets on the way; plus, given how both Nids and Orks evolve, they're going to end up with either gigantic, super-powered Orks or enormously powerful, massive floods of Nids coming out of that part of the Galaxy.

And the Necrons? Who knows what the hell they're up to... in-universe at least

It's the long-term position of the Imperium that's unsustainable, so yeah, it is eroding away. The prospect of the hive fleets just being another layer of scouting is the big threat on the horizon, with the prospect that the real tyranid forces have yet to enter the fray.

The one wildcard in all of this is how the GE deals with chaos and the warp. Their ruthless internal bureaucracy is rife with precisely the sort of backstabbing that would make for a chaos playground. However, that's outside the purview of a direct GE/Imperium confrontation, which the GE wins handily on the basis of space superiority.

I would argue the GE is precisely the wrong folks for Chaos corruption. They simply don't fit any of the Chaos powers.

Khorne: Nope. They aren't bloodthirsty killers. Even Stormtroopers are numb about it all.

Slaanesh: The Hutts would coked out pleasure heads, but again, this doesn't fit the GE's military at all.

Nurgle: Fear? Stormtroopers stride numbly into battle. Officers stand calmly on deck while nuclear-level explosions go on outside.

Tzeetch: New knowledge, magic? Not at all. The lack of innovation in GE tech shows the former isn't a worry, and no one beleives in the Force anymore.

In short, the GE is quite safe from Chaos corruption, particularly as they have to willingly choose to fall.

Tzeentch is the god of ambition. The Empire is swamped with it.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Tzeentch is the god of ambition. The Empire is swamped with it.

I've purused quite a bit of 40k fluff and seen not a thing pointing to that. What would be the reference?

Nitram, couldn't much of that also be said about the Space Marines? Hell, if anything I'd say that using that logic it would be impossible that there are traitor legions, but there are.

Not at all.

Space Marines are bloodthirsty as fuck; they rush into combat bloodthirstily, screaming and ranting.

Slaanesh: They have hyper-senses. Overindulgence is part and parcel.

Tzeetch: The Chapter in question was, indeed, swamped in desire for sorcerous power.

Nurgle is a different question, I'd have to read about the specific legion there. But a Space Marine is a dangerous psychopath, a Stormtrooper an ice-cold sociopath, or more accurately, a fucking flesh and blood automata. They just don't feel.

Nurgle corrupted space marines appear to be corrupted simply by din of exposure to his corruption. Or at least this has been the case in the few stories I've read covering them.

His disease and pestilence seem to eat away at both the physical and mental of the marines, leading to dementia, halucinations, and other mental infirmities. Following with this he corrupts the minds and with it the spirits of the marines and then takes them as his own.

SirNitram wrote:

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Tzeentch is the god of ambition. The Empire is swamped with it.

I've purused quite a bit of 40k fluff and seen not a thing pointing to that. What would be the reference?

I'd say Captain Piett going over the Admiral's head to get favor with Vader would be one example. If nothing else we do know that a number of the navy captains are arrogant as all hell. That has to count for something.

Nitram, couldn't much of that also be said about the Space Marines? Hell, if anything I'd say that using that logic it would be impossible that there are traitor legions, but there are.

Not at all.

Space Marines are bloodthirsty as fuck; they rush into combat bloodthirstily, screaming and ranting.

Slaanesh: They have hyper-senses. Overindulgence is part and parcel.

Tzeetch: The Chapter in question was, indeed, swamped in desire for sorcerous power.

I was just figuring that because of their undying loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind that even with those failing unless there was some serious power behind the Chaos Gods the Marines wouldn't falter.

Nurgle is a different question, I'd have to read about the specific legion there. But a Space Marine is a dangerous psychopath, a Stormtrooper an ice-cold sociopath, or more accurately, a fucking flesh and blood automata. They just don't feel.

What are the references for this. I know the Clones seemed that way but since Stormtroopers are at least partly enlisted men I'd figure they wouldn't be. For example the whole "Hey, you seen that new VT-16?" "No, what do they say?" "They say it's, it's something else." as well as some other novels giving stormtroopers emotions that at the very least a good number of them could be converted.

B4UTRUST wrote:Nurgle corrupted space marines appear to be corrupted simply by din of exposure to his corruption. Or at least this has been the case in the few stories I've read covering them.

His disease and pestilence seem to eat away at both the physical and mental of the marines, leading to dementia, halucinations, and other mental infirmities. Following with this he corrupts the minds and with it the spirits of the marines and then takes them as his own.

They don't call him 'Father Nurgle' for nothing... they view him as being a caring, blessing god, one that bestows the gift of oblivion upon his followers, said oblivion coming from letting yourself be consumed by his blessing of plague... so yes. They're definitely balls-crazy.

SirNitram wrote:

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Tzeentch is the god of ambition. The Empire is swamped with it.

I've purused quite a bit of 40k fluff and seen not a thing pointing to that. What would be the reference?

Source wrote:Tzeentch is the Great Sorcerer, the god of magic and master of the mutable time stream. He is known as the Changer of the Ways, the one who directs the fate of the universe. Tzeentch guides unwitting mortals along paths destined to increase his own power , though they may never realise their part in his plan. He shows favour to those who use intelligence to control the world, especially to wizards and magical creatures. He takes delight in the plotting and politicking of men, and favours the cunning over the strong, the manipulative over the violent. Tzeentch is the Great Conspirator, the master of plot and intrigue. Few of Tzeentch's plots are simple, and many appear contradictory to others, or against Tzeentch's own interests. Only Tzeentch can see the trails of potential futures weaving forward in time like multicoloured threads. Tzeentch's plans reach through time and space and can carry through untold centuries. For what is a mere hundred years to a god who existed before the dawn of time and will exist long after the world is no more.

Source wrote:In the Empire and the other kingdoms of Man, worshippers of Tzeentch gather in secret covens by which they use every means to increase their own personal standing and to expand the influence of their patron. The ones who are most vulnerable to the lure of the Great Mutator are wizards, scholars and other educated individuals who thirst for more knowledge and ultimately for power.

And regarding Stormtroopers, the Empire, and Chaos: Connor, BlackAdmiral, myself, and I think a few others came to the general consensus that Stormtroopers would be resistant to corruption, but hardly immune. Much like Marines.

And somehow I don't find it too farfetched to see a politically-struggling ISD captain agree to a pact or two -- this "magic" might have interesting uses during the next promotion review.

Charon wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Tzeentch is the god of ambition. The Empire is swamped with it.

I've purused quite a bit of 40k fluff and seen not a thing pointing to that. What would be the reference?

I'd say Captain Piett going over the Admiral's head to get favor with Vader would be one example. If nothing else we do know that a number of the navy captains are arrogant as all hell. That has to count for something.

.....I mean what's the reference for Tzeetch gaining power from ambition. It's obvious Imperials are ambitious.

Nitram, couldn't much of that also be said about the Space Marines? Hell, if anything I'd say that using that logic it would be impossible that there are traitor legions, but there are.

Not at all.

Space Marines are bloodthirsty as fuck; they rush into combat bloodthirstily, screaming and ranting.

Slaanesh: They have hyper-senses. Overindulgence is part and parcel.

Tzeetch: The Chapter in question was, indeed, swamped in desire for sorcerous power.

I was just figuring that because of their undying loyalty to the Emperor of Mankind that even with those failing unless there was some serious power behind the Chaos Gods the Marines wouldn't falter.

Not really. They were made with the same fundamental failing as the Eldar: They were too emotional.

Throw in Horus being supremely fucking arrogant, and you had a recipe for disaster.

Nurgle is a different question, I'd have to read about the specific legion there. But a Space Marine is a dangerous psychopath, a Stormtrooper an ice-cold sociopath, or more accurately, a fucking flesh and blood automata. They just don't feel.

What are the references for this. I know the Clones seemed that way but since Stormtroopers are at least partly enlisted men I'd figure they wouldn't be. For example the whole "Hey, you seen that new VT-16?" "No, what do they say?" "They say it's, it's something else." as well as some other novels giving stormtroopers emotions that at the very least a good number of them could be converted.

When they're doing their job, they're not showing any major emotions we associate with battle. They don't cower or charge; they walk into firing positions and calmly blast away. EU denotes they simply don't care; they die for the Emperor as gladly as they continue fighting. They still have emotional capacity, and I apologize if I gave the impression that was gone, but I meant in battle they are as automata: They just don't care.

Throw in the point Necronlord has pointed out often over on SDN, that you can't fall to Chaos unless you do so willingly. They can infect you, they can carve you up, they can hunt you.. But unless you accept them, you won't fall. Given the contempt the Force is held in by the officers we see, there's little danger.

I will mention one thing: The Dark Jedi running around under Palpy's cloaks are going to be magnets for Chaos corruption, but I suspect a Comissar-style 'It's For Your Own Good!' execution there.

For Tzeentch as the master of ambition The Realm of Chaos, The Lost and the Damned, pg 30, second paragraph of the description of Tzeentch:

Tzeentch feeds upon the need and desire for change that is an essential part of human nature. It is also a part of dwarven and elven natures, but not to the same extent as mankind is a far more volatile and ambitious species. All men dream of wealth, freedom and a better tomorrow. Nor are these dreams the preserve of the impoverished or powerless as even rich men dream of further riches, or of an end to their responsibilities. All these dreams create a powerful impetus for change, and the ambitions of nations create a force which can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiement of that force.

Any information on the Chaos Gods can readily be found in the Liber Chaotica which contains the Liber books on all four gods plus chaos undivided.

Weighing in at several hundred pages long it covers everything from the histories, the powers, the methods and desires of corruption, forms, influence, daemons, minions, etc.

Damned good read, highly recomended.

Fortunately, it wouldn't take the GE's Inquisition long to turn into a 40K style anti-chaos agency.

Indeed. Considering the descriptions of the Dark Side of The Force, I would actually say the Force is very similar to the Warp, in that both are generated by living things, and the level of turmoil changed by the emotions of individuals. The upside to this theory is the Empire knows how to deal with the Force. The downside is that Palpatine may end up a Daemonhost for either Tzeentch or The God-Emperor of Mankind(Tz because of ambition, but GEoM because he's got that whole High Human Society thing, along with intolerance.).

To be fair, if some of the hypothetical requirements of a Divine Avatar given in the Thorian sourcebook turn out to be true, Palpatine's just not up to the task. He'd make a good normal demonhost though.

A daemonhost is simply a daemon bound into a host body to make it easier to control. I assume you mean thrall or possession fodder?

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:A daemonhost is simply a daemon bound into a host body to make it easier to control. I assume you mean thrall or possession fodder?

Ah, yes. Sorry, I thought Daemonhosts were those with big psykker doorways in their heads and a compatible mindset.