LibriumArcana.Games

Word of warning: I'm recently started going through my B5 DVDs aigain so there may be several more of those to come.

In TG, Kosh is poisoned by having a injection patch slapped on his wrist when reaching out to shake hands with Cmdr Sinclair.
1) The encounter suit doesn't have arms to reach out with, at least not that we've ever seen. Whenever he needed to physically grab something Kosh extends a small pincer/claw thingy from the front of the suit. So how do you slap something on a wrist that isn't there?
2) Even assuming there are arms on the suit to reach out with, shouldn't they be covered by the suit and thus protected?
3) As nobody has ever seen a Vorlon leave alone knows anything about their physiology how did the assassin know the poison would do any good?
4) If the Kosh/Ulkesh confrontation in S4 is any indication Vorlons don't HAVE physical bodies. How in Valen's name do you poison an 'energy' being?

Batman wrote:1) The encounter suit doesn't have arms to reach out with, at least not that we've ever seen. Whenever he needed to physically grab something Kosh extends a small pincer/claw thingy from the front of the suit. So how do you slap something on a wrist that isn't there?
2) Even assuming there are arms on the suit to reach out with, shouldn't they be covered by the suit and thus protected?

He exposed his real hand to honour his friend Sinclair.

3) As nobody has ever seen a Vorlon leave alone knows anything about their physiology how did the assassin know the poison would do any good?

Unknown, AFAIK.

4) If the Kosh/Ulkesh confrontation in S4 is any indication Vorlons don't HAVE physical bodies. How in Valen's name do you poison an 'energy' being?

JMS, and the show, both indicate that they are physical. The lack of the exit of GlowKosh from Sheridan burning a hole in his shirt is a budget thing, and should be considered a gaffe. They have to vape holes in the ceilings to pass through. There's something physical there alright.

JMS, and the show, both indicate that they are physical. The lack of the exit of GlowKosh from Sheridan burning a hole in his shirt is a budget thing, and should be considered a gaffe. They have to vape holes in the ceilings to pass through. There's something physical there alright.

As a point of fact, we know they are capable of directly interacting with the world around them, as per Kosh saving sheriden. In order to do this, they MUST have a physical body

) The encounter suit doesn't have arms to reach out with, at least not that we've ever seen. Whenever he needed to physically grab something Kosh extends a small pincer/claw thingy from the front of the suit. So how do you slap something on a wrist that isn't there?

I would assume Kosh begin using the pincer claw as a precaution. The experience of being posioned making him a little leery of exposing himself and all...

The Necrontyr Messenger wrote:They have to vape holes in the ceilings to pass through. There's something physical there alright.

Why? Energy can't effortlessly pass through solid matter either. The only way to get a laser beam past a wall is to burn through it. Does that mean lasers are matter, too?
I don't know what JMS said but the show is at best ambiguous about the nature of Vorlon physiology, and the Kosh/Ulkesh altercation clearly shows they don't have solid bodies no matter what, and the intent seems to be the stereotypical SciFi 'energy' being.

Comrade Tortoise wrote: As a point of fact, we know they are capable of directly interacting with the world around them, as per Kosh saving sheriden. In order to do this, they MUST have a physical body

Um-no. Kosh displayed telekinetic abilities on several occasions. He does NOT need a physical body to interact with his surroundings unless you can show that was a feature of the encounter suit.

Batman wrote: Why? Energy can't effortlessly pass through solid matter either. The only way to get a laser beam past a wall is to burn through it. Does that mean lasers are matter, too?

It means there is no evidence for them being intangible. Sure, they glow. My lightbulb glows, I can still smack you with it.

The Necrontyr Messenger wrote: It means there is no evidence for them being intangible. Sure, they glow. My lightbulb glows, I can still smack you with it.

Ah, okay. Seems I looked at that one the wrong way round.
That being said, what evidence is there for them being tangible?

Batman wrote:

Comrade Tortoise wrote: As a point of fact, we know they are capable of directly interacting with the world around them, as per Kosh saving sheriden. In order to do this, they MUST have a physical body

Um-no. Kosh displayed telekinetic abilities on several occasions. He does NOT need a physical body to interact with his surroundings unless you can show that was a feature of the encounter suit.

Then why did he need to physically reveal himself when saving John? He could have done it at a distance.

Also, in order to generate telepathic or telekinetic forces, he has to have some osrt of physical method to do so. That requires energy

Also, when Kosh was killed by the shadows... well, shadows are physical, so for that to happen, he would have had to have been physical.

Comrade Tortoise wrote: Then why did he need to physically reveal himself when saving John? He could have done it at a distance.

Presupposes he can do it at an arbitrary distance,

Also, in order to generate telepathic or telekinetic forces, he has to have some sort of physical method to do so. That requires energy

But not a physical body, at least not in SciFi,

Also, when Kosh was killed by the shadows... well, shadows are physical, so for that to happen, he would have had to have been physical.

Garbage. Physical bodies CAN affect energy. Happens every time something blocks a ray of light. Plus, Station Security used PPGs on Ulkesh. They didn't apparently DO much of anything but unless you can show us HOW the Shadows took down Kosh that isn't particularly conclusive.

Garbage. Physical bodies CAN affect energy. Happens every time something blocks a ray of light. Plus, Station Security used PPGs on Ulkesh. They didn't apparently DO much of anything but unless you can show us HOW the Shadows took down Kosh that isn't particularly conclusive.

Light is a wave-like particle, it has a semi-physical form.

At any rate, in order for Kosh to give off light, or reflect it, which he does in order to be seen, he has to have a physical surface to reflect the light, or chemical reactions need to be ongoing in order to produce it. That requires a physical form.

We know he generates sound, which means that there needs to be something physical going on to create the sound.

Hell, when he saved SHeriden, and was emmiting light, in order to be non-corporeal he would have had to use telekinesis to excite the air molecules around him enough emmit light. That requires a lot of energy, that he would have to produce somehow.

But not a physical body, at least not in SciFi

In order to release energy, he has to harness it, that requires a physical body.

Comrade Tortoise wrote: We know he generates sound, which means that there needs to be something physical going on to create the sound.

Did he ever generate sound OUTSIDE his encounter suit? (Honest question, I haven't made my way that far yet, and I don't remember from last seeing it).

Hell, when he saved Sheridan, and was emmiting light, in order to be non-corporeal he would have had to use telekinesis to excite the air molecules around him enough emmit light. That requires a lot of energy, that he would have to produce somehow.

That would be true if it actually happened. Which it didn't. The viewers percieved it that way on account of being programmed to react to Vorlons a certain way. Remember what Londo saw? Nothing. On the physical level Kosh was apparently invisible.

Batman wrote: That would be true if it actually happened. Which it didn't. The viewers percieved it that way on account of being programmed to react to Vorlons a certain way. Remember what Londo saw? Nothing. On the physical level Kosh was apparently invisible.

That is an incorrect conclusion. What we know is that Vorlons can influence how people percieve the, i.e play tricks with their minds. Londo seeing nothing isn't proof of invisibility, its proof that the Vorlons can influence what he sees. Now if there is visual recording of a Vorlon and it shows nothing, then we can deduce that a Vorlon isn't visible in the spectrums that the recorder uses.

Fair enough, change 'Kosh was' to 'for all we know Kosh might have been'. Though that begs the question of why the Vorlons modified the Centauri to not see them at all, as opposed to doing what they did with everybody else, i.e. make them appear as some sort of angel figure.

Batman wrote:Fair enough, change 'Kosh was' to 'for all we know Kosh might have been'. Though that begs the question of why the Vorlons modified the Centauri to not see them at all, as opposed to doing what they did with everybody else, i.e. make them appear as some sort of angel figure.

Londo was fairly heavily Shadow touched by that point. If it is mental influence, it could have nothing to do with him being Londo and everything to do with him being in bed with the Shadows.

Episode 1 of the first season. There was light seen from Kosh indpendant of anyone's perceptions. He was casting light from behind a blind and when Commander Sinclair turned his back, he cast a frigging shadow on the wall as he moved to his encounter suit.

That was not a case of seeing him with anyone's perceptions but the camera's

As for sound, also season 1 episode 1

He is not in his suit, and is talking to Sinclair.

There's no evidence for the Shadows doing anything to Londo besides giving him what he thought he wanted and eventually maneuvering him into a corner. No mention of any kind of mental manipulation/shielding whatsoever that I can recall.

Batman wrote:There's no evidence for the Shadows doing anything to Londo besides giving him what he thought he wanted and eventually maneuvering him into a corner. No mention of any kind of mental manipulation/shielding whatsoever that I can recall.

I wasn't speaking of an alteration of Londo, but rather him being punished by association.

Cynical Cat wrote: I wasn't speaking of an alteration of Londo, but rather him being punished by association.

So you're basically saying Kosh denied Londo the vision because he had been a bad boy? I find that a lot harder to swallow than the Vorlons never messing with the Centauri in the first place.
Does the series ever come out and say one way or the other?

Batman wrote:

Cynical Cat wrote: I wasn't speaking of an alteration of Londo, but rather him being punished by association.

So you're basically saying Kosh denied Londo the vision because he had been a bad boy? I find that a lot harder to swallow than the Vorlons never messing with the Centauri in the first place.
Does the series ever come out and say one way or the other?

Interesting, coming from the guy who twists the laws of reality so that a being doesnt have to actually generate energy

Batman wrote: So you're basically saying Kosh denied Londo the vision because he had been a bad boy? I find that a lot harder to swallow than the Vorlons never messing with the Centauri in the first place.

Really? You believe that he can control how everyone else percieves him, but have difficulty believing that he can control how Londo percieves him? Especially given the Vorlons fondness cryptic communications and messages and the fact that Londo was in bed with the Shadows for a while by this point.

The control of what the viewers see is NOT up to Kosh, it is something genetically programmed into the viewers. Kosh is NOT deliberately projecting an image, the people who see him percieve him a certain way because they have been conditioned to do so.
Which to me indicates that for whatever reason the Centauri simply weren't tampered with.

Batman wrote:The control of what the viewers see is NOT up to Kosh, it is something genetically programmed into the viewers. Kosh is NOT deliberately projecting an image, the people who see him percieve him a certain way because they have been conditioned to do so.
Which to me indicates that for whatever reason the Centauri simply weren't tampered with.

My memories of this part are fuzzy (its been a while). References? In any case, it just means the Londo can't see him. Even genetic programming doesn't mean that Kosh can't alter what he sees. A Vorlon agent was able to alter Sheridan's perceptions so this is not beyond Vorlon capacity. Londo's realized he has made a devil's bargain with the Shadows before the fall of Narn. He's wracked by guilt he can't admit to. If genetic programming is influencing how he precieves Vorlon's, then it could alter how those who deal with the Shadows percieve them. The Vorlon's know he's been making deals with the Shadows. He's a tainted subject. Now if any other Centauri (such as Vir) were to witness the same thing, then we would have better grounds for coming to that conclusion.

Also, I would point out that Vorlons are powerful telepaths, and that he could very easily fuck with Londo's perceptions that way

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Episode 1 of the first season. There was light seen from Kosh indpendant of anyone's perceptions. He was casting light from behind a blind and when Commander Sinclair turned his back, he cast a frigging shadow on the wall as he moved to his encounter suit.

All of which may have been done from his encounter suit and I noticed no shadow.

That was not a case of seeing him with anyone's perceptions but the camera's
As for sound, also season 1 episode 1
He is not in his suit, and is talking to Sinclair.

No evidence for a) him not being in the suit and b) not making use of the suit.