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Yes, I'm talking about those Changelings.

See, I'm not familiar with Star Trek; I missed a lot of episodes (including that one with naked Janeway :( ), but IIRC, we have two instances of Borg inability to assimilate:

(1) Species 8472. It was explained by some kind of antibody that fucked up with Borg nanoprobes, so the Borg could not assimilate them.

(2) Data (Star Trek: First Contact). The Borg could not assimilate him so the Borg Queen needed to *sexually* seduce him to give her the (IIRC?) access to E-E computer (too bad Data resisted the seduction). Probably because Data is NOT organic ("pure" android), and the Borg can only assimilate living things?


But is there any direct/indirect evidence (or the lack thereof) to safely conclude whether the Borg can or cannot assimilate a Changeling?

If no such evidence exist, can we analyze through physics/chemistry/biology/whatever?

Here's my two cents: in order to assimilate the host, the nanoprobes need to physically interact with the host, don't them? Now what if the Changeling changes its physical properties into something the nanoprobes cannot interact with? Say, a liquid form? Or pure gaseous or the likes? (alright, it's probably a bad analysis but I'm still recovering from flue; gimme' some slack! :P )

Anyone?

I doubt the borg nanoprobes could do it. They can change into inert objects like rocks and not be detected by tricorders. That seems to be a little much for the borg. They would probably just disintigrate them and assimilate Vorta scientists.

What I'm curious about is if they could assimilate the Jem'Hadar. After all, the built-in deification of the Founders would likely make the mental aspect of assimilation highly problematic.

The only reason the Borg couldnt assimilate 8472 was their unbelievable immune system that destroyed the nano-probes.

The founder would almost certainly get assimilated adding great new distinctiveness to the collective. (The mental aspect of assimilation is irrelevant )

Dark lord of the megas wrote:The only reason the Borg couldnt assimilate 8472 was their unbelievable immune system that destroyed the nano-probes.

Well, that too, but the Borg inability to assimilate Data shows limitation to Borg assimilative capability: they cannot assimilate non-living things.

Alright, that would be irrelevant regarding to Changeling, but furthermore, Borg nanoprobes need to physically and/or chemically interact with the assimilation target, don't them?

What if a Founder changes into something the probes cannot interact with? Super-dense materials? Gas? Etc?

What is the limit of Borg assimilation capability? What is the limit of changeling shape-shifting capability?

Dark lord of the megas wrote:The founder would almost certainly get assimilated adding great new distinctiveness to the collective. (The mental aspect of assimilation is irrelevant )

Petro was talking about Jemmies, not Founders.

Jem'Hadar sure. Several episodes show Jem'Hadar that have rebelled against the Founders.

Someone who can turn themselves into a rock or an eagle. The nanoprobes get stymied by a strong immune system aren't likely up to that kind of challenge. It's a creature way beyond their ability to handle. We've only seen them handle humanoids with a definable anatomy. How are those nanoprobes going to deal with something that doesn't even have a definable brain? Now, if they assimilate some Vorta specialists in Founder physiology and create a specialized batch of nano, then they have a chance.

The interesting thing about Borg nanoprobes is that they can assimilate organic and non organic targets, suggesting impressive versatility in their assimilation capabilities. Therefore blood cells is one means of assimilation by nanoprobes, but most certainly not a limiting factor.

Arguements in regards to Species 8472 should note that they are a highly unusual exception to the rule of assimilation by the Borg. And this was due to their incredible immune system, which was extremely fast aggressive, immediately targeting and destroying any foreign material in their bodies, be it biological, chemical or technological in nature.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: (1) Species 8472. It was explained by some kind of antibody that fucked up with Borg nanoprobes, so the Borg could not assimilate them.

Not a specific anti body. Species 8472's immune system is extremely fast and aggressive. It targets and destroys any foreign material in their bodies (and their ships), whether it was biological, chemical or technological. That's an extremely difficult system to beat.

(2) Data (Star Trek: First Contact). The Borg could not assimilate him so the Borg Queen needed to *sexually* seduce him to give her the (IIRC?) access to E-E computer (too bad Data resisted the seduction). Probably because Data is NOT organic ("pure" android), and the Borg can only assimilate living things?

This is refuted by Borg nanoprobes routinely assimilating computer systems and consoles. Furthermore, the Borg did turn Data into a cyborg, and via methods beyond his understanding. (as learned by his line of questioning of what they were doing to him)

My theory is that Data was by no means immune to assimilation, but instead merely possessed the capability to destroy the information the Borg needed far faster than they could forcibly extracted it, and they knew it. Even direct assimilation of targets by nanoprobes takes many seconds to accomplish. Presumeably Data's ability to delete and purge information from his storage devices is significantly faster.

This is further credited by how the Voyager crew prevented the Borg from assimilating them in STVOY "Scorpion". They threatened to destroy vital information the Borg wanted, and thus were able to force the Borg into a position of negotiation. However, this is by no means an indication Voyager is immune to assimilation (the ship was later assimilated on a limited basis with the crew's assistance).

But is there any direct/indirect evidence (or the lack thereof) to safely conclude whether the Borg can or cannot assimilate a Changeling?

If no such evidence exist, can we analyze through physics/chemistry/biology/whatever?

Here's my two cents: in order to assimilate the host, the nanoprobes need to physically interact with the host, don't them? Now what if the Changeling changes its physical properties into something the nanoprobes cannot interact with? Say, a liquid form? Or pure gaseous or the likes? (alright, it's probably a bad analysis but I'm still recovering from flue; gimme' some slack! :P )

Anyone?

One question that comes to mind is if the changelings are really turning into an object or other form of matter, or merely mimicking it.

Robert Walper wrote:Not a specific anti body. Species 8472's immune system is extremely fast and aggressive. It targets and destroys any foreign material in their bodies (and their ships), whether it was biological, chemical or technological. That's an extremely difficult system to beat.

Yup.

Robert Walper wrote:This is refuted by Borg nanoprobes routinely assimilating computer systems and consoles. Furthermore, the Borg did turn Data into a cyborg, and via methods beyond his understanding. (as learned by his line of questioning of what they were doing to him)

The problem is; why the Borg didn't simply assimilate E-E computer in First Contact?

Furthermore, what is the definition of 'assimilation'? Yes, Borg nanoprobes may infiltrate computer system and hack into it, but does it count as "assimiliation"? My impression is assimilation is a process of making another species into a Borg drone; by injecting nanoprobes into their system, thus corrupting their organic.

Can the Borg assimilate a pure robot, a battle droid, for instance, and making it a Borg?

Robert Walper wrote:My theory is that Data was by no means immune to assimilation, but instead merely possessed the capability to destroy the information the Borg needed far faster than they could forcibly extracted it, and they knew it. Even direct assimilation of targets by nanoprobes takes many seconds to accomplish. Presumeably Data's ability to delete and purge information from his storage devices is significantly faster.

There is still problem: they decided to 'take time' to surgically implant the organic skin into Data. Would it be faster to use nanoprobes for that purpose? (giving him organic skin so the Queen can sexually seduce him)

Robert Walper wrote:This is further credited by how the Voyager crew prevented the Borg from assimilating them in STVOY "Scorpion". They threatened to destroy vital information the Borg wanted, and thus were able to force the Borg into a position of negotiation. However, this is by no means an indication Voyager is immune to assimilation (the ship was later assimilated on a limited basis with the crew's assistance).

Wait, the ship was assimilated? So the Borg can assimilate non-living things, I guess. Although maybe it's a different definition from "assimilating" other species to make them Borg.

But probably we're straying too far from the point. See, why I came up with the idea on the first place because my impression is the nanoprobes need to interact with the host somehow, to change them into Borg. However, since a Changeling is basically nothing more than liquids... That's if I'm correct about them, of course.

Robert Walper wrote:One question that comes to mind is if the changelings are really turning into an object or other form of matter, or merely mimicking it.

But the problem is; (IIRC) by the very nature the Changeling is nothing more than liquid, blobbish life-form without any defineable 'organs' or 'tissues' or even 'cells' (the Great Link?). Would the nanoprobes capable of actually interacting with the Changeling (to turn them into Borg), or they would be just 'swimming' inside the liquid and fail to do anything?

Is there any evidence or hints to support or contradict this? Episodes? Character quotes?

:scratch

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: The problem is; why the Borg didn't simply assimilate E-E computer in First Contact?

They were beginning to until Data locked out the computer with some type of encryption, hence the Borg's interest in him afterwards.

It's not surprising the Borg couldn't hack the E-E's computer after it had been encrypted. Advanced modern day encryption would take even networks of super computers decades to break.

Furthermore, what is the definition of 'assimilation'? Yes, Borg nanoprobes may infiltrate computer system and hack into it, but does it count as "assimiliation"? My impression is assimilation is a process of making another species into a Borg drone; by injecting nanoprobes into their system, thus corrupting their organic.

Assimilation is generally defined as the Borg acquiring and altering anything to service the Collective. This ranges from technology, ships and individuals (usually organic in nature).

Be definition, Data was assimilated by the Borg by virtue of them turning him into a cyborg. They clearly understood his workings enough to modify him in ways beyond his understanding, despite decades of personal experience including the help of his engineer friend and docters.

Can the Borg assimilate a pure robot, a battle droid, for instance, and making it a Borg?

I don't see why not, so long as the target in question has basic aspects Borg assimilition techniques can recognize and exploit. If we can determine that the Founders do indeed have identifiable cells...they're screwed.

There is still problem: they decided to 'take time' to surgically implant the organic skin into Data. Would it be faster to use nanoprobes for that purpose? (giving him organic skin so the Queen can sexually seduce him)

I'd say the ability for nanoprobes to convert artificial components into biological matter is questionable.

Furthermore the drones on the Enterprise were working with an obviously inferior technology base and limited resources on hand, therefore their displayed capabilities should account for this.

Wait, the ship was assimilated? So the Borg can assimilate non-living things, I guess. Although maybe it's a different definition from "assimilating" other species to make them Borg.

A more direct example of the capabilities of Borg nanoprobes in this regard would be from ENT "Renegeration". We see a drone's tubules inject a console/bulkhead and re arrange the controls and structure to resemble a Borg interface.

But probably we're straying too far from the point. See, why I came up with the idea on the first place because my impression is the nanoprobes need to interact with the host somehow, to change them into Borg.

With normal crew members (ie: such as humans), Borg nanoprobes are injected into the blood stream. They then begin to re write the victim's DNA and construct small implants throughout the body. Larger and more extensive implants are added physically later on.

However, since a Changeling is basically nothing more than liquids... That's if I'm correct about them, of course.

We should keep in mind that humans (and presumeably most comparable Trek humanoids) are in fact mostly liquid as well, and that the nanoprobe's target the liquid aspects of the body (ie: blood cells).

But the problem is; (IIRC) by the very nature the Changeling is nothing more than liquid, blobbish life-form without any defineable 'organs' or 'tissues' or even 'cells' (the Great Link?). Would the nanoprobes capable of actually interacting with the Changeling (to turn them into Borg), or they would be just 'swimming' inside the liquid and fail to do anything?

There has to be more to the changeling's physical makeup than just loosely defined "liquid". Humans are mostly "liquid" as well, and nanoprobes assimilate them easily enough.

Is there any evidence or hints to support or contradict this? Episodes? Character quotes?

:scratch

One example that might prove quite useful is STVOY "In the Flesh". Voyager stumbles across a Species 8472 training facility that is mimicking Starfleet Command. The relevent part of this episode is that we find out that Species 8472 can also in fact change their physical form to mimick humans (although their ability seems more based upon their technological abilities. But since their technology is biologically based in the first place...)

And modified Borg nanoprobes (modified solely to evade detection by the immune system) can assimilate a Species 8472 specimen.

Well I know humans are basically liquid, but at first I imagined the Founder is a different type of "liquid". At first I imagined assimilating a Founder is as pointless as assimilating water or such...

By the way you mentioned about the Feds virus against the Founder. In what episode it was depicted?

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:Well I know humans are basically liquid, but at first I imagined the Founder is a different type of "liquid". At first I imagined assimilating a Founder is as pointless as assimilating water or such...

Well, considering Borg nanoprobes already assimilate liquid based lifeforms, including ones capable of changing shape/size (ie: Species 8472), the Founder's immunity does not sound promising.

By the way you mentioned about the Feds virus against the Founder. In what episode it was depicted?

Was during the Dominion war in the Deep Space Nine series. Can't say I know which episode it was off hand...

The virus was depicted in several late DS9 episodes, but a lot about it was featured in Tacking Into The Wind and the next one, where Bashir and Miles go digging in Sloan's head. It was a "mutigenic" virus that accelerated as a Founder shapeshifted more often.
- Ra

Fed sensors can't detect shapeshifted changelings as being anything other than what they are. Considering that fed sensors can analyze molecular structures, this is ridiculous but it is canon. I don't see standard nanoprobes dealing with this.

The virus was given to Odo at Starfleet medical where he underwent extensive testing. As I said, once the Borg assimilate some Vorta founder experts, they have a chance.

Cynical Cat wrote:Fed sensors can't detect shapeshifted changelings as being anything other than what they are. Considering that fed sensors can analyze molecular structures, this is ridiculous but it is canon. I don't see standard nanoprobes dealing with this.

Unfortunately, it is also canon that Federation sensors can be fooled into detecting something that isn't actually there, or miss detecting things for a multitude of reasons. So this doesn't qualify as evidence that Founders actually exist as such objects rather than mimicking them and just tricking sensors with their biology. The fact is that if you remove a piece of a Founder, regardless of their form, it reverts to it's organic liquid state. This wouldn't be the case if the Founder was truely changed into, say, a rock.