LibriumArcana.Games

Watching A New Hope I am struck by a clear difference in rebel forces deployed in ANH and Return of the Jedi. All the rebels are human. Every last one of them.

I wonder if many of the aliens saw the early stages of the rebellion and the empire itself as a "human problem" and considered their best option to be that of keeping their heads down and staying at arm's length?

Not necessarily-- the Wookiees in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader saw the extermination of the Jedi, and took steps to protect those on Kashyyyk. As a result they were attacked and enslaved by the new Empire. The Marvel Star Wars comics from the '80s also depicts many aliens, including the Mon Calamari, coming to the assistance of the Rebellion shortly after Yavin. These are the only examples I can think of at the moment, though...

You'll note I'm discussing the make up of Rebel forces during the battle of Yavin, which is covered in A New Hope, being overwhelmingly human as opposed to aliens being there for the battle of Endor, in Return of the Jedi, Elheru.

And the fact of the wookies may only prove the theory, after seeing the enslavement of an entire specis the aliens may have felt there was simply to much risk to activity rebel. Does anyone have a reason for why there seems to be little to no non-human involvement in the Rebellion during the time of A New Hope or not?

I have a feeling it was more of a technical/filmmaking decision rather than a story-driven one.

It is probably easier from a production standpoint to have actors in the cockpits, rather than have to design, create and rig up a slew of characters.

frigidmagi wrote:And the fact of the wookies may only prove the theory, after seeing the enslavement of an entire specis the aliens may have felt there was simply to much risk to activity rebel. Does anyone have a reason for why there seems to be little to no non-human involvement in the Rebellion during the time of A New Hope or not?

It is possible that the Rebel cell on Yavin IV was principly made up of recruits from Alderaan, a world which was predominately human (it also had a large Caamasi population, but they were pacifistic to a fault, even after the Imperial annihilation of their homeworld); it is known that the Alliance, at least in its early years, was made up of numerous dispirate resistance groups. Mon Mothma's cell from Chandrilla, Ackbar's from Mon Calamari, the Sullustan Underground, Leia and Dodonna's forces, even Rogue Squadron were all relatively autonomous up until the planning of the Battle of Endor, and some, like Garm Bel Ilbis' primarily Corellian force, even after that. That would explain the absense of many aliens during the Battle of Yavin, without contradicting their existance elsewhere.

Hedgecore, we are operating under Suspension of Disbelief. That means you have to find an in universe reason for what you see on the screen. In Real Life, sure it may have been a budget decision. So what? That is not what I asked.

Ah, here's a question I can get into. First of all, when the tech and resources were developed, the only real alien additions that come to mind are Sy Snootles and Jow Yowzah's (sp?) little dance numer (Goo Nee Tay!), and Jabba getting a bad skin oil problem in ANH.

But all jokes aside:

The aliens of the Star Wars Universe who are -not- human-looking, (Correllion, Aderaanian, etc.) are excedingly self-interested, and usually operate on the shady side of the law. Look at the 'Wretched hive of scum and villany'. Or the Court of the Vile Gangster. Those are the two most alien-packed places in the entire original trilogy. And they're almost all scumbags to a T. Go ahead and throw your little 'good-aligned' aliens at me (Oola, Max Rebo, Muftak, Momaw Nadon) those are generally sketchy at best.

The Aliens, even in the Outer Rim, operated in the underground. Even Cloud City had shady dealings going on--just like any business. The Alien side of the coin in the Star Wars Universe was (dunno about any more.) run by crime, if you ask me. The Hutts had their own damn planet and pulled about as much water as any body in the galaxy. Gambling, smuggling, and bounty hunting were practically viable professions. Even The Empire acknowledges it: "Bounty Hunters! We don't need their scum." I believe it was Piett? Obviously intimidated by Bossk, btw.

More on this when I get home.

I contend that interpretation. If we're talking about the OT solely, then ROTJ shows us that the Ackbar were an integral Alliance member. So integral that they provided kilometers-long Star Cruisers and were involved in the high-level strategic planning for combat operations (the entire character of Admiral Ackbar, who was the chief military officer of the Rebel Fleet). According to the novelisation, the Mon Calamari were the 'soul' of the Rebellion.

Also, to suggest that aliens are scum because the sample you provide come from seedy bars or a gangster's palace is sketchy logic at best. I can use that same logic and say that all humans are nazis because we only see humans as Imperials... obviously, the only sample I've taken is the bridge of the Executor or Death Star.

Well, when you look at the Mon Cal (Ackbar's race) you see a bit of an exception. Hell, barring Chewbacca, there weren't even any other Wookiees in any alliance-specific battles I remember. But seriously, the reason I have those samples from scummy places, is there there aren't even really that many gatherings of aliens to choose from. Even Jawas are kind of sketchy, if you ask me. So seriously, where in the OT -were- there concentrations of 'aliens'. The Cantina, Bespin: Cloud City, Jabba's Palace, the Ewoks (while I wouldn't call Ewoks evil, I will remind you who intended to eat our Character-Shielded heroes, but that can be attributed to savagery more than anything.), and MAYBE the Bridge of Home One--which was a brief scene at best. In the Special Edition there's a scene on Coruscant where they pull down that statue of Palpatine, but I'm fairly certain that crows was mainly composed of 'humans'.

You don't see many wookies because they're enslaved or stuck on their homeworld, as the Empire as made it criminal to transport a free wookie.

Masterharper wrote:Well, when you look at the Mon Cal (Ackbar's race) you see a bit of an exception.

They are more than a bit of an exception.

The novelisation goes into detail over the Rebel Alliance. Page 85: "Hundreds of Rebel Commanders, of all species and lifeforms, assembled in the war room of the giant Star Cruiser [Home One]..." The entire Rebel Alliance had been assembled in that fleet, which stretched 'past the range of human vision'. (page 84) So the entire Alliance had responded to the call to arms, and many different lifeforms turn up - so it's not just humans.

On page 86: "But if the humans were the arm of the Rebellion, then the Calamarians were the soul - which isn't to say they couldn't fight with the best, when pushed to the limit. And the Empire had reached that limit." So now we're told how integral the Mon Cal are to the Alliance. Given that the massive Home One type Star Cruisers were provided by the Mon Cal, I'd think their contribution to be more than an exception.

Hell, barring Chewbacca, there weren't even any other Wookiees in any alliance-specific battles I remember. But seriously, the reason I have those samples from scummy places, is there there aren't even really that many gatherings of aliens to choose from. Even Jawas are kind of sketchy, if you ask me. So seriously, where in the OT -were- there concentrations of 'aliens'. The Cantina, Bespin: Cloud City, Jabba's Palace, the Ewoks (while I wouldn't call Ewoks evil, I will remind you who intended to eat our Character-Shielded heroes, but that can be attributed to savagery more than anything.), and MAYBE the Bridge of Home One--which was a brief scene at best.

In the films we are mainly situated in the Outer Rim, which is a lawless region. You can't take a sample size from that and state it's reflective across the board. Hence why I countered this point in my previous response to you, by saying all humans are nazis if you take only the Imperials as a sample. (or all humans are terrorists, if you take the Rebels as the sample)

In the Special Edition there's a scene on Coruscant where they pull down that statue of Palpatine, but I'm fairly certain that crows was mainly composed of 'humans'.

What does this prove? It's a well known fact that humanity has a massive presence in the GFFA. They are the single most common sentient species encountered.

Additionally, the "war room" scene in ROTJ on the Home One shows at least three alien species beyond the Mon Calamari: the Dresellians, Ishi Tiib, and Sullustans, one of whom, Nein Numb, played a key roll in the destruction of the Death Star. Even putting aside the EU, the role of alien factions in the alliance is obvious.

The idea that most aliens in SW are "sketchy" is a rather absurd assumption, as well. All throughout the PT, dozens of alien species and characters are treated as being perfectly normal and even integral parts of the Republic (even if the Seperatist movement was principly alien-backed).

I've never read the novelisation, and never touched it. I don't read SW Novels, in fact the only exposure outside the films I've willingly had was the Dark Sun book, Tales from Jabba's Palace, Bounty Hunter Tales, the one where Han gets the Falcon (I dont' remember the title, that was like six, seven years ago.), and the Jedi Knight games. Maybe you can see where Aliens are being painted in a poor light? I don't necessarily agree with what I'm saying, but for the sake of debate, I'll continue with a rebuttal:

I was under the assumption we were analyzing the OT in it's entirety, NOT considering Expanded Universe things and whatnot, considering what Frigid said to Hedgecore.:

Hedgecore, we are operating under Suspension of Disbelief. That means you have to find an in universe reason for what you see on the screen. In Real Life, sure it may have been a budget decision. So what? That is not what I asked.

But I digress:
In the movies, you have sucessfully come up with a single scene that briefly showcases some aliens onboard a command vessel planning their attack. And Nein Numb (I could go off on a tangent here, but it'd have to break the 4th wall in the OT.), who was co-pilot of the Falcon. I dont' recall a lot of Aliens flying the one and two-man fighters, though, and those are what really got into the nitty gritty. The capitols, for the most part, just sat there, until it started to look really hairy.

If you objectively review the films--and I mean you have to be objective, take them as they come--alien involvement is minimal. No aliens on the Endore Strike team--except Chewie. No Aliens on hoth, as I remember. No alien fighter pilots. No alien soldiers...at least the Empire has a reason: they won't allow them--even if they would join.

Masterharper wrote:.at least the Empire has a reason: they won't allow them--even if they would join.

IIRC, there is no evidence of that in the films at all, even in episodes I-III.

What I intended was to discuss why the amount of aliens in the Rebellion seems to dramatically increase from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi. My thought was that alien specis might have felt they were risking more then human planets if they overtly rebelled.

Alderaan would have changed that I think.

Masterharper wrote:I was under the assumption we were analyzing the OT in it's entirety, NOT considering Expanded Universe things and whatnot,

Too bad novelisations are considered canon. In fact, LFL's canon policy includes the EU as C-canon, and a special provision for George Lucas to add or revise anything in published books, which would then increase the canon level to G.

This is how the ICS and ITW reference books published by DK are considered G-canon, because the writers and artists worked extensively with LFL at Skywalker ranch, having access to the material the film makers were using to put on the big screen.

And further, Frigidmagi's OP or any other subsequent post in this thread doesn't specify this to be a 'films only' discussion.

In the movies, you have sucessfully come up with a single scene that briefly showcases some aliens onboard a command vessel planning their attack. And Nein Numb (I could go off on a tangent here, but it'd have to break the 4th wall in the OT.), who was co-pilot of the Falcon. I dont' recall a lot of Aliens flying the one and two-man fighters, though, and those are what really got into the nitty gritty. The capitols, for the most part, just sat there, until it started to look really hairy.

We're not shown every single rebel pilot, and how many hundreds of fighters do you think flew at Endor? Are all of them humans? Or again, like I've said the last two responses to you, do you think taking such a small sample size is enough to extrapolate a compelling trend?

If you objectively review the films--and I mean you have to be objective, take them as they come--alien involvement is minimal. No aliens on the Endore Strike team--except Chewie. No Aliens on hoth, as I remember. No alien fighter pilots. No alien soldiers...at least the Empire has a reason: they won't allow them--even if they would join.

Bolded emphasis is mine: what is your source on this? Even if you do go with a 'films only' view of the issue raised, there is nothing that says the Empire is overtly specist - you need the EU to determine that. As the prequels show, Palpatine surrounds himself with all manner of advisors, and it doesn't matter that they're aliens or not. Even the most famous alien in the entire EU - Grand Admiral Thrawn - is one of the best Imperial fleet commanders they ever had.

You also have no idea what face lies under those stortrooper helmets or gunner helmets. You have no cause to say that the empire is overtly specist... unless you reference the EU, and if you do that then I can reference the novelisation (which is already higher on the canon scale).

I think the Rebel base in Yavin only represents a portion of the Rebel Alliance anyway. The Rebel CinC is Mon Mothma, yet she wasn't there at Yavin. So it could only be a faction led by Princess Leia.

Later, in ROTJ, we saw the Rebel Alliance as a whole, with more numerous officials, generals, and leaders than we saw in Yavin. And of course, we started to see the aliens too.