LibriumArcana.Games

Yes, the Fun With... threads are back - for better, or for worse.

Given a setting, technological and developmental level, and a larger civilization in, for the same of argument, the Star Wars universe (in a vacuum, in this case - let's not consider other civilizations' influence just yet), let's design them a military for both defensive and offensive operations.

1. Were you to design a structured military for a civilization large enough to support it, how would you separate the "branches" of the military? This would include planetary occupation, planetary assault, space navy operations (patrol, fleet tactics, etc.)

2. How would you design the different ship classes for the developing space navy? Would you design them according to the purposes for which you'll need a navy and let them evolve from there, or would you go a different way?

I do have additional questions, but they depend entirely on what sorts of answers I get. Thank you in advance for your attention and your thoughts.

How Utopian do you want this? Are we assuming typical human corruption and incompetence, or can I be a bright eyed "this is how it should be" idealist?

It stands to reason that a civilization as advanced as the one seen in the "Star Wars" films would have mastered both biotechnology and nanotechnology in the course of advancing. With these two technologies, the very idea of ship-to-ship naval combat becomes entirely pointless.

Essentially, one would design very small microcapsules containing a few Von Neumann machines capable of self-replication with very common elements like carbon compounds. These Von Neumann machines would in essence be the 'grey goo' nightmare scenario spoken of by astronomer Martin Rees among others. Simply bring such a capsule through a port of entry, or even set it afloat on the solar wind, and with a little time you've completely neutralized your enemy and turned him into easily-reprocessed raw materials.

To be honest, World War 2 style naval combat seems so entirely unlikely. Warfare of the future will be far stranger than anyone today can imagine. Big things are so... 20th century. Whoever masters the micro-world will be the victor of tomorrow's battlefields.

Nanotech has a fuckload of limitations which many sci-fi authors don't understand. It takes forever to work and EMP fries it, to name one. Star Wars is fantasy, but so is 90% of the shit people do with nanotech. Von Neumann WMDs isn't exactly a safety conscious weapons option.

'Grey Goo'? In space? I think I might have to stab people again. Folks, it's simple mathematics, the stuff would burn away in the stellar wind!

SirNitram wrote:'Grey Goo'? In space? I think I might have to stab people again. Folks, it's simple mathematics, the stuff would burn away in the stellar wind!

Please do *hands him Pelwe knife*

For those that don't get it, remember the formula for surface area and volume.. Very small objects rapidly overheat to the point of uselessness, which is why 'Grey Goo' and 'Nanoassembly' are as much science fantasy as anything in Star Wars.

If you want 'hard' sci-fi, no amount of yanking your pants off and masturbating furiously to the fantasies of nanotech will work. The 'hardest' sci-fi space combat you can get is submarine; he who appears on his opponent's sensors is dead because nuclear-tipped missiles are headed his way. The distances do present the problem of getting killed after you get the kill.

Of course, any society which develops shielding tech, either from proven principles of EM fields(There I go, using real science without nanowanking! I'm such a bad boy) or from magic pixie dust, WW2 combat will return until you develop technologies to remove the shield's protection, either warheads or DEW's so heavy they smash through, or some kind of equally magic pixie dust shield penetrators.

Now, if you want to talk militaries, you instantly raise the question of goals. Is it 'Take and hold' or 'Burn it all'? Spaceborn civilizations may not need planets at all, so 'Burn It All' strategies may become prominent and result in a primary Navy military, with the other services being basically shuttlecraft operations and security. Other societies might remain on planets for any number of reasons(Pixie dust, sentimentality, whatever), and thus shift towards a Take And Hold philosophy, emphasizing the landing forces which are ferried by the Navy and supported by Naval guns and Space Force trans-atmospheric fighter/bombers.

So far, very interesting responses - my thanks to all of you.

As for the society, this will not and cannot be a utopia, as it will be a dual emigration of two separate species (and no, they can't have children together). For the sake of argument, assuming their tech level as on par with the Empire is a good baseline for now, as I can work backwards later.

From the points raised, nanomachines appear to be very useful under controlled conditions, such as construction and manufacturing, but using it as a weapon would be impractical, simply due to the conditions necessary for them to survive and be useful.

As for ship-to-ship combat becoming pointless; perhaps - but it appears to be a mainstay that comes full circle - particularly if DEW's become practical, as they work much more quickly to destroy something than an army of nanomachines might.

So - what about the military? How should that be split up? Perhaps a Navy and an Army, to handle space operations and planet-based operations respectively, and a third branch for intelligence?

You still require Marines to serve as fast reaction expeditionary forces and as a force that can specialize in for example assaults on planets or stations. Someone's gotta ride along with the patrol fleets to be ready to piss out brush fires.

The Army should be allowed to concentrate on actual heavy ground fighting and occupation.

frigidmagi wrote:You still require Marines to serve as fast reaction expeditionary forces and as a force that can specialize in for example assaults on planets or stations. Someone's gotta ride along with the patrol fleets to be ready to piss out brush fires.

The Army should be allowed to concentrate on actual heavy ground fighting and occupation.

Ah, a good point, and one raised elsewhere.

However, would the Marines be better as an actual separate branch of the military, or merely the fast-reaction expeditionary force of the Navy? What would be the positives and negative aspects of both?

As a separate force you get a Command staff and a budget that can actually be focused on the job instead of fighting for money against ship making and care. Keeping them as part of the navy just ensures they won't get the money or personale or officer training to do it right.

frigidmagi wrote:As a separate force you get a Command staff and a budget that can actually be focused on the job instead of fighting for money against ship making and care. Keeping them as part of the navy just ensures they won't get the money or personale or officer training to do it right.

That's an excellent argument for having a separate branch, then. Would they also be responsible for military scouting in space as well, given their fast-reaction nature?

Additionally, the question of military intelligence comes up. Should it be its own separate branch of the military, or be simply a department within each branch?

I would think every military branch would have it's own intelligence anyways, no matter what you write down on the paper. There are things you simply need to know that an Army Intell guy won't think to look for and vice versa.

frigidmagi wrote:I would think every military branch would have it's own intelligence anyways, no matter what you write down on the paper. There are things you simply need to know that an Army Intell guy won't think to look for and vice versa.

That sounds sensible to me. Thank you, Frigid.

No Problem. I want to point out that doesn't mean you can't have a separate military intelligence branch, it just means that the other branches will make their own intels anyways.

frigidmagi wrote:No Problem. I want to point out that doesn't mean you can't have a separate military intelligence branch, it just means that the other branches will make their own intels anyways.

I understand - but for the reasons you mentioned, a separate branch would rapidly become redundant, and therefore useless.

What kind of governments are we dealing with? A Fascist or Communist (basically an oppressive authoritarian state) government will find uses for a separate military intell branch. So would a state with a history of domestic violence or mistrustful of it's generals and admirals.

frigidmagi wrote:What kind of governments are we dealing with? A Fascist or Communist (basically an oppressive authoritarian state) government will find uses for a separate military intell branch. So would a state with a history of domestic violence or mistrustful of it's generals and admirals.

This is where it gets tricky, I'm afraid, as there are several variables. I'm not sure how quite to develop the government yet, as it's supposed to include two separate sapient races. One is human, and the other is entirely telepathic - it's how they talk and communicate, and the concept of a "secret" is foreign to them, until they got involved intimately (no, they can't have kids together) with humans.

I've already plotted how the humans with them would have greater potential for telepathy and Force Abilities and such by constant and continued exposure to this second race, but all of this raises interesting questions on the style of government.

In short, I don't know yet. The alien race would be coming from the point of view of a rigid caste system that was only very recently thrown off, so they'd be quite open to change and suggestions.

A few additional details, if they help:

- Human lifespan will be about the equivalent of 200 years, and this alien race will live about 5-8 times that on average. The alien race is therefore not a hasty race by any means, and therefore conflicts between the relatively "hasty" humans and people of this race might arise as result.

- At the beginning of this scenario, the total population of this alien race will be much greater than the total population of humans with them - but humans breed much faster than members of this race, so humans will outnumber the alien race after about 8-10 generations.

The characters sitting down and designing how their society will proceed will likely take the above into account, to make sure it's both fair for both races now, as well as later.

When did the Telepaths develop a need for a military? They can't keep secrets which means they can't lie to each other, rendering diplomacy by our standards impossible. Without Diplomacy conflict becomes very different, Will Rogers once noted that Diplomats were as important to starting a war as Soldiers were to ending one.

Are these people connected all the time? Is there a distance limit? A max size limit to connection?

Okay, I'll try to be as concise as possible here.

The idea came to me a while ago, and I've been trying to tinker with it since - now that I'm revisiting it, I'd like to begin, and eventually end this story.

Basic plot is that the Protoss from Starcraft have a civil war between the first and second games, and a large majority leaves through a portal on Shakuras, and ends up on Dathomir, a planet in the Star Wars universe. The Terran contingent Raynor's Rangers went with them, and both encountered the Force Witches on Dathomir. After some excitement, the societies integrated and began to evolve.

So, here are the quantifiable limits I'm working with in terms of the Protoss in this universe, in answer to your questions.

frigidmagi wrote:When did the Telepaths develop a need for a military?

I can come back to this point, but if you've played StarCraft, this should be an easy one.

frigidmagi wrote:They can't keep secrets which means they can't lie to each other, rendering diplomacy by our standards impossible. Without Diplomacy conflict becomes very different, Will Rogers once noted that Diplomats were as important to starting a war as Soldiers were to ending one.

This is an important point, and one I split from the rest because this is a strong consideration to include, especially since early on, they somehow have to use diplomacy to get the Force Witches to integrate with their group.

Or, possibly, the soldiers do the diplomacy in this case, which would result in unintentional comedy - and provide the Protoss with a rudimentary lesson in diplomacy.

frigidmagi wrote:Are these people connected all the time?

Yes; for the High-Born Protoss, this is "normal." For the Dark-Born (i.e. the Dark Templar, etc.) they do not have a constant connection, but still communicate telepathically upon need.

frigidmagi wrote:Is there a distance limit?

This is something I'll have to work out, since I don't know right now.

Preliminarily, I'd say sending emotions and images appears to be without limit - concepts require a stronger connection.

frigidmagi wrote:A max size limit to connection?

What do you mean in terms of "size?" The number of people who can connect with one individual at once? If so, I'd say the brain's multi-tasking comes into play, and say only 5 or 6 at a time.

When the hell did the Protoess become part of this discussion? You've lost me.

Also Soldiers are bad Diplomats. Any comedy would be pretty black I think.

frigidmagi wrote:When the hell did the Protoess become part of this discussion? You've lost me.

Sorry, I was alluding to them earlier, when I should have come right out and named them explicitly. They are the "alien race" I was referring to earlier.

frigidmagi wrote:Also Soldiers are bad Diplomats. Any comedy would be pretty black I think.

True - especially with trained Force users.

Well that changes a crap load.

frigidmagi wrote:Well that changes a crap load.

If you're still willing to help, I'll transcribe whatever info you need that I have from my notes.

Yeah PM me that stuff and give me a bit to go over it.