LibriumArcana.Games

SPOILER DISCUSSION BELOW:




Don't say I didn't warn you!




I reallly mean it.






This isn't a joke.






Almost spoilers, last chance to turn back.
















First of what it answers:

Book would appear to have been at one point an Operative. That's just my guess, partially. But it explains nicely the way he commanded immediate deference from the Alliance as well as how darn good he is at this. It also would explain why he became a preist; Operatives seem to need a cause. And Sheppard Book had his in Malcom Reynolds.

The Reavers are a science experiment gone wrong. The results of a piosoning with Pax; it makes a certain amount of sense. The madness from being alone in space never quite struck me right, poetic but not right. This makes a certain horrible sense and to a certain extent explains how there are space faring cave-monsters.

Good to see Kaylee landing her doctor.

And for some one so dimwitted, Jayne has a certain amount of smarts. He should have taken grenades to the heist and he was right when he said that River was all sorts of trouble. Definitely cast in the vain of Spike but he has a certain amount of asshole wisdom.



What it does not answer:

If Sheppard Book was an Operative, why did he leave? How much did he know about the Alliance's activities? And why Malcom and Serenity? I think he know, at least something, and left because of that. He turns to God and the Independents to try and set things right. Interesting indeed.

Just what was the Alliance doing with River? It's obvious on the surface what the immediate objective was. But it seems to be a major long term project and there is no immediately obviously explaination why.

Just how extensive is the Alliance's eugenics/human engineering? These guys have a plan bigger than the Nazis and Commies rolled into one. I doubt this and River are the only buried skeletons. A Libria gone horribly wrong, Orwell's mad offspring.

Just how much more does Simon know that he hasn't told? It's clear that there is indeed more that he hasn't told. It's odd but he definitely doesn't seem to trust.

Whether Mal will get his head out of his ass with regards to Inara.

Is River really better?


Speculation:



Coming soon!

At first the "Simon rescuing River" scene didn't make sense to me, since in the pilot episode it had seemed like he'd paid some people to smuggle her out in the freezer, but when again, in "Safe" when that crazy religious/superstitious woman realized River was psychic, Simon was trying to cover for her, saying she was "intuitive" (I don't remember exactly what he said). He didn't seem to be the "heroic rescuer" type at the beginning, and he didn't seem good at lying. But then, the overly-stiff guy behavior might have been an act.

Gah, now I need to see the series again.

Jayne having those "asshole smarts" makes sense. He's been the crazy guy with the gun for a long time, and to survive he'd have to be smart or get some smarts or good instincts to survive.

And I agree that the Pax poisoning story works better for the Reavers' origin. I had been wondering how they were able to get more ships and new Reavers if they were a few men who went out into the edge of space and lost it. Baby Reavers made no sense. But if they started with a pretty large base (about 30,000, one-tenth of one percent of the population of Miranda, if memory serves me right, and naturally all the ships of that world) they could just replace losses by making people like that guy in "Bushwacked" go crazy and join them.

And the Alliance's seeming obsession makes a twisted kind of sense if you think about their Earth-that-was. Earth was destroyed and they apparently fled in a fleet of evacuation ships. A single-minded obsession with "never again" and their ranks of ideologues who'll do anything for their beliefs, including chopping up the brains of young boys and girls (who knows how many other kids were in that facility with River, but without a rich big brother to rescue them), piping gas into a population to make them docile...umm, this sentence has gotten rambly, but you get what I'm saying. I need sleep now.

Mayabird wrote:And I agree that the Pax poisoning story works better for the Reavers' origin. I had been wondering how they were able to get more ships and new Reavers if they were a few men who went out into the edge of space and lost it. Baby Reavers made no sense. But if they started with a pretty large base (about 30,000, one-tenth of one percent of the population of Miranda, if memory serves me right, and naturally all the ships of that world) they could just replace losses by making people like that guy in "Bushwacked" go crazy and join them.

I thought it was 10% of the total population, not one-tenth of one percent.

Three million is a big number of what are, thematically, space pirates. It's a bit hard to understand how they sustained their existence if they're effectively insane and aggressive. "Bushwhacked" is a good example of this, because after killing a shipload of people there was only one guy they 'turned' or whatever. Barely a trickle of 'new recruits', so to speak.

It would be nice to know who leads the Reavers. All we really saw were the stormtroopers.

Mayabird wrote:At first the "Simon rescuing River" scene didn't make sense to me, since in the pilot episode it had seemed like he'd paid some people to smuggle her out in the freezer, but when again, in "Safe" when that crazy religious/superstitious woman realized River was psychic, Simon was trying to cover for her, saying she was "intuitive" (I don't remember exactly what he said). He didn't seem to be the "heroic rescuer" type at the beginning, and he didn't seem good at lying. But then, the overly-stiff guy behavior might have been an act.

That's indeed one thing that struck me, Simon was a lot better at that then he lead everyone to believe. Or he practiced a lot before hand for the rescue. Either way I think he's got some mighty big secrets he's still keeping. For one thing he clearly knows more about what was done to River, if not specifically, than he ever let on to the crew.

Make's you wonder.

Mayabird wrote:And the Alliance's seeming obsession makes a twisted kind of sense if you think about their Earth-that-was. Earth was destroyed and they apparently fled in a fleet of evacuation ships. A single-minded obsession with "never again" and their ranks of ideologues who'll do anything for their beliefs, including chopping up the brains of young boys and girls (who knows how many other kids were in that facility with River, but without a rich big brother to rescue them), piping gas into a population to make them docile...umm, this sentence has gotten rambly, but you get what I'm saying. I need sleep now.

I more or less get why. And understand why the Independents fought against the Alliance so hard, no warm and fuzzy government does stuff like that. But still, the Alliance seems rather monsterous even by our terrestrial standards.

Stofsk wrote:I thought it was 10% of the total population, not one-tenth of one percent.

That's what I heard, but my freinds swears its the latter. I wonder if they didn't goof and say both? Barring a script or something, I'd say 10% makes more sense.

Stofsk wrote:Three million is a big number of what are, thematically, space pirates. It's a bit hard to understand how they sustained their existence if they're effectively insane and aggressive. "Bushwhacked" is a good example of this, because after killing a shipload of people there was only one guy they 'turned' or whatever. Barely a trickle of 'new recruits', so to speak.

It's entirely possible that they don't care to recruit; from what we've seen they just like death. They've been out and about for ten years or so, according to the movie. The series implies they're older than that from what I remember but it could easily be just a false association with older, vicious attacks. Regardless, they have a population base and so few survive their attacks that seems likely that they would still be around even with their self-depleteing behaviour.

Stofsk wrote:It would be nice to know who leads the Reavers. All we really saw were the stormtroopers.

Lord Stormbringer wrote:

Mayabird wrote:At first the "Simon rescuing River" scene didn't make sense to me, since in the pilot episode it had seemed like he'd paid some people to smuggle her out in the freezer, but when again, in "Safe" when that crazy religious/superstitious woman realized River was psychic, Simon was trying to cover for her, saying she was "intuitive" (I don't remember exactly what he said). He didn't seem to be the "heroic rescuer" type at the beginning, and he didn't seem good at lying. But then, the overly-stiff guy behavior might have been an act.

That's indeed one thing that struck me, Simon was a lot better at that then he lead everyone to believe. Or he practiced a lot before hand for the rescue. Either way I think he's got some mighty big secrets he's still keeping. For one thing he clearly knows more about what was done to River, if not specifically, than he ever let on to the crew.

Make's you wonder.

Part of it might have been that Simon was out of his league in the rural hardscrabble Outer Rim of fistfights and mudders and superstitious kidnappers, making him look like a bumbling fool. His turf was the inner worlds, and when they robbed the hospital, he knew exactly what to do to steal the medicine and how to do it. If not for Jayne, the plan would have worked perfectly.

Technology:
Well, the idea that they use FTL is almost blown out of the water. Seems everything is in one massive solar system, which I will elaborate on below.

However their straight line acceleration is superb. In the opening scene we see ships leaving earth, and those flashes of light which preceed ships going into orbit by mere seconds.. Yeah.. Relly good acceleration. In order for this to work, they have to have some form of inertial dampening as well.

Hull strength... yeah, serenity takes a beating and keeps going...

SHiboard weapons of the alliance:

From what I have seen, mostly missile and what lookes to be projecile weapons. We know they have laser tech, but is it possible that their reactors simply cannot power lasers of sufficient power to puncture an armored military hull?

cosmology: While the movie and series are hard scifi...which I like. The cosmology of this solar system makes my brain bleed. It has dozens of habitable planets, granted terraforming is used, but that cant compensate , for temperature extremes. SO the realy question then, is how many stars are in this system.

I'm not even touching the system. Gar, that is so fucking STUPID.

Stormy is right about Simon- at the very least, he was holding out a raft of info on River. Totally understandable, and a nice twist. He knew she was psychic, and he knew she was deadly all along.

I'll admit, I was a tad disappointed by the movie. Now understand- I still felt like I got my money's worth, but it was Serenity, a somewhat distinct entity from Firefly.

More thoughts later as they percolate.

Petrosjko wrote:I'm not even touching the system. Gar, that is so fucking STUPID.

I don't get why people are so uptight about this. Especially when they're ready to excuse FTL, which I remind is a scientific impossibility, while we still don't know all there is to know about how our planets in this solar system formed (let alone about the planetary systems of distant stars which we can barely detect; about the only planets we CAN detect at this range are gasgiants). Our own solar system could very well be underpopulated as it goes.

A huge amount of planets in a single solar system might be highly improbable, but hyperdrive and warpdrive et al are impossible. Why the former is more stupid than the latter is something that confounds and irritates me.

(there's also the other fact no-one's considered, that the Serenity 'solar system' might be a binary or trinary system that covers more area than our own, single solar system does. This can account for a lot of planets in a STL setting.)

Stofsk wrote:

Petrosjko wrote:I'm not even touching the system. Gar, that is so fucking STUPID.

I don't get why people are so uptight about this. Especially when they're ready to excuse FTL, which I remind is a scientific impossibility, while we still don't know all there is to know about how our planets in this solar system formed (let alone about the planetary systems of distant stars which we can barely detect; about the only planets we CAN detect at this range are gasgiants). Our own solar system could very well be underpopulated as it goes.

A huge amount of planets in a single solar system might be highly improbable, but hyperdrive and warpdrive et al are impossible. Why the former is more stupid than the latter is something that confounds and irritates me.

(there's also the other fact no-one's considered, that the Serenity 'solar system' might be a binary or trinary system that covers more area than our own, single solar system does. This can account for a lot of planets in a STL setting.)

I would say that most of it comes from a completely unnecessary and illogical (in story terms) addition of a planet with at least seven or eight habitable, Earth normal planets. For one thing, judging from sun alone they'd have to be orbiting with in more or less Earth distance. Which is simply not possible in a solar system by our understanding. It's a massive inconsistancy. At the very least, the Firefly humanity had to get to this system and colonize it. That means crossing a huge distance already.

It's not that it's impossible, it's that it introduces a massively unnecessary term.

Anyway, the movie continues the entirely unsatisfactory leaning but not confirming attitude. I wouldn't say it's confirmed but it's weird still.

From what I have seen, mostly missile and what lookes to be projecile weapons. We know they have laser tech, but is it possible that their reactors simply cannot power lasers of sufficient power to puncture an armored military hull?

The latter is most likely. A laser loses power but a 50 megaton nuke will still be 50 megaton nuke if it hits from 50 miles as 50,000. The Firefly-verse uses fusion which puts reasonable limits on power generation.

While the movie and series are hard scifi...which I like. The cosmology of this solar system makes my brain bleed. It has dozens of habitable planets, granted terraforming is used, but that cant compensate , for temperature extremes. SO the realy question then, is how many stars are in this system.

They several times imply a more galatic scale. Some of the graphics on the displays suggest a more cosmic scale as does some dialogue. On the other hand some, (echoing similar incidents in Star Wars) suggest a much smaller set up. All in all, maddening but impossible to say for sure.[/quote]

Mayabird wrote:Part of it might have been that Simon was out of his league in the rural hardscrabble Outer Rim of fistfights and mudders and superstitious kidnappers, making him look like a bumbling fool. His turf was the inner worlds, and when they robbed the hospital, he knew exactly what to do to steal the medicine and how to do it. If not for Jayne, the plan would have worked perfectly.

Some of it certainly; but neither was he entirely naive. He hooked up with a resistance or underground, broke River out an extreme security facility, and managed to evade the Blue Hands. He's not entirely an amatuer; he hid some of that from Mal even if he didn't know the turf.

And he flat out knows more about River than he let on. The codeword from one thing as well as specific knowledge of what she was and how they had shaped her.

Petrosjko wrote:I'll admit, I was a tad disappointed by the movie. Now understand- I still felt like I got my money's worth, but it was Serenity, a somewhat distinct entity from Firefly.

Part of that is the translation to screen. It affects anything some; movie making is different than TV.

Part of it is that we're seeing something that probably would have developed over a season and a half, if not more. It'll make for something of a disconnect.

Lord Stormbringer wrote:

Mayabird wrote:Part of it might have been that Simon was out of his league in the rural hardscrabble Outer Rim of fistfights and mudders and superstitious kidnappers, making him look like a bumbling fool. His turf was the inner worlds, and when they robbed the hospital, he knew exactly what to do to steal the medicine and how to do it. If not for Jayne, the plan would have worked perfectly.

Some of it certainly; but neither was he entirely naive. He hooked up with a resistance or underground, broke River out an extreme security facility, and managed to evade the Blue Hands. He's not entirely an amatuer; he hid some of that from Mal even if he didn't know the turf.

And he flat out knows more about River than he let on. The codeword from one thing as well as specific knowledge of what she was and how they had shaped her.

When I watched the pilot episode, the impression I got was that he used his money to make contacts in the underground and they were the ones who busted River out, stuck her in that hibernation box thingy, and he only picked her up from them and then tried to hitch a ride off-world. My later impressions of him from him being totally lost out in the Rim didn't help. It just took a while for me to think of him as not some brave but naive guy.


On a totally different note, if it's around 2510 A.D. and they have all those planets and moons terraformed and colonized after fleeing Earth in that evacuation fleet, those ships must have been moving pretty damn fast to reach any other solar system(s), unless they say "around" because of time dilation effects. My thoughts on the single solar system are already well established.

Lord Stormbringer wrote:Anyway, the movie continues the entirely unsatisfactory leaning but not confirming attitude. I wouldn't say it's confirmed but it's weird still.

My updated opinion is that the whole line was just one of River's 'crazy moments', given that whole scene with the teacher was a dream she was having.

Though I have not seen it, the Serenity RPG handbook apparently has a starmap in it that shows us three star systems.

Your updated opinion is most likely wrong.

Book: After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new Earths were terra formed and colonized. The central planets formed the Alliance and decided all the planets had to join under their rule. There was some disagreement on that point. After the War, many of the Independents who had fought and lost drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control. Out here, people struggled to get by with the most basic technologies; a ship would bring you work, a gun would help you keep it. A captain's goal was simple: find a crew, find a job, keep flying.

This is what is shown now before every episode of Firefly on the Sci-Fi Channel.

It's a leap of faith. Gotta make one for every piece of fantasy and sci-fi out there. It's weird, it's different, it's something few people have asked us to do before, so it seems out of place. We're used to forgiving a slew of various breaches in science, so much so that when we see it more and more it simply becomes commonplace. This show doesn't ask for some of those traditional leaps, but instead asks that we make a nontraditional one.

Shrug your shoulders, accept it, and just move on. It's really not a big deal.

Hotfoot wrote:Your updated opinion is most likely wrong.

Book: After the Earth was used up, we found a new solar system and hundreds of new Earths were terra formed and colonized. The central planets formed the Alliance and decided all the planets had to join under their rule. There was some disagreement on that point. After the War, many of the Independents who had fought and lost drifted to the edges of the system, far from Alliance control. Out here, people struggled to get by with the most basic technologies; a ship would bring you work, a gun would help you keep it. A captain's goal was simple: find a crew, find a job, keep flying.

This is what is shown now before every episode of Firefly on the Sci-Fi Channel.

It's a leap of faith. Gotta make one for every piece of fantasy and sci-fi out there. It's weird, it's different, it's something few people have asked us to do before, so it seems out of place. We're used to forgiving a slew of various breaches in science, so much so that when we see it more and more it simply becomes commonplace. This show doesn't ask for some of those traditional leaps, but instead asks that we make a nontraditional one.

Shrug your shoulders, accept it, and just move on. It's really not a big deal.

You know I cant do that. Other stuff is fantasy. None of it can be considered science fiction. Firefly IS actually science fiction. And damn it, I want to know how their solar system works

Comrade Tortoise wrote:You know I cant do that. Other stuff is fantasy. None of it can be considered science fiction. Firefly IS actually science fiction. And damn it, I want to know how their solar system works

Every gorram science fiction story has some leap in logic, some breaking of the laws of science as we know them, or some twisted permutation of them in order for the premise to work. FTL, Artificial Gravity, Half-Breeds between two different species, TIME TRAVEL, the list goes on. This is a revistation of an old concept that hasn't been used in a while, it's not new, just not familiar.

This doesn't ask no more of you than any other Sci-Fi has before.

I've come to the conclusion that this films sequels are going to be about the resurgence of the war of indepence. seems to fit with the theme behind the film.

especially considering they just told everyone how completely evil their government is.

HUGE SPOILER:



I didn't like that they killed Wash. Not only did I think he was a good character, I didn't like how they did it either. It seemed basically like "Well, the flying part of the movie is over, lets kill the pilot, it'll be easier." And it was kind of glossed over. Book (who I'm not too fond of) got his whole long dying speech and all that. Wash: *shing* dead, move on.

As for the sequels (fingers crossed), I think/hope they'll deal with the Blue Hands. The Alliance will still be after River, won't they? This whole thing with the Operative and the Pax et al, was more or less unrelated. They sent the Op to get River, because of her knowledge of the failed experiment, but the program she was part of, that Simon freed her from, still going on, still probably want her back.

And overall, I agree (with whom, I forget), I'd rather have not seen it in a movie, the television series, or at least, the DVD box set after the season is over. I feel like that movie could have been done as an entire season by itself, or at least half a season. As a film, it had to be pared down, and it revealed a lot all at once.

Meh. Wash is just the cookie-cutter typecast 'smartass pilot'. I like practically all the characters EXCEPT Wash.

And he died quickly. No speech, but he died heroically too (got the ship to where it had to go).

The Bluehands are dealt with in the comic series. As for the gov't wanting River back, they could continue to try but as the Operative said, the damage has already been done. If the reason to nab River back was to prevent exactly what occurred at the end of the film, continuing to nab her would be redundant. Unless in the sequel the Alliance wants her for a different reason (and perhaps their methods will change too, instead of trying to kill or kidnap her, they bargain with her... it all depends on if there is a sequel and if that sequel happens to go down a particular path).

I was under the impression that one group (the Blue Hands) wanted her back for their weird-ass program, but the Operative's people wanted her back to prevent the Pax thing getting out. While they're both Alliance, they're still seperate. So, Pax thing: damage done, but she's still an escaped science project. *shrug*

Wash would've been my choice of characters to die. I never was too enamored of him, though he did serve the Everyman function for the audience. My main affection for Wash came from his being part of the rare functional marriage in a TV series.

As for his death, it was a nice jolt of shock. Besides, I'm betting he was due to die by the end of the season. It has the most dramatic punch, and also Alan Tudyk is the most expensive actor in the cast, so...

Hedgecore wrote:As for the sequels (fingers crossed), I think/hope they'll deal with the Blue Hands. The Alliance will still be after River, won't they? This whole thing with the Operative and the Pax et al, was more or less unrelated. They sent the Op to get River, because of her knowledge of the failed experiment, but the program she was part of, that Simon freed her from, still going on, still probably want her back.

The Blue Hands and their employer Blue Sun are out of the picture supposedly since the comics. They and their backers were given the chance to fix things but they failed. Hence the Operative and Parlament taking a direct role.

Hedgecore wrote:I was under the impression that one group (the Blue Hands) wanted her back for their weird-ass program, but the Operative's people wanted her back to prevent the Pax thing getting out. While they're both Alliance, they're still seperate. So, Pax thing: damage done, but she's still an escaped science project. *shrug*

There are, I expect, layers with in layers surrounding the Academy and River. I doubt that they've given up entirely, even the Operative allows as much. His reason is moot but there are plenty of others, not the least revenge, to go after River and Serenity.