Shadowrun/Earthdawn Dragon match up.

[frigidmagi]

First thing is first. In the name of the great Fantasy Forum I claim Shadowrun. Discussions about the Shadowrun universe are to take place here. Take that Sci-Fi!

On to the thread. As most of you likely know Shadowrun is a fantasy cyber punk setting that takes place in the latter half of the 21st century. Earthdawn is a pure fantasy setting that takes place sometime in the murky depths of pre-history. Both of these take place on the planet Earth, the same planet Earth.

Now there are a set characters that appear in both settings without any doubt. The Dragons, most specifically the Great Dragons. This thread is to attempt and try to match who is who.

Known Earthdawn Great Dragons or Adult Dragons: (as appearing in Dragons of Barasive)
Alamaise, also called Elfbane
MountainShadow, also called Far Scholar
Icewing
Aban
Earthroot
Asqante
Nightsky
Charcoal Grin
Vasdenjas

Known Shadowrun Great Dragons or Adult Dragons: (list incomplete)
Aden
Celedyr
Dunkelzahn-deceased
Ghostwalker
Hestaby
Hualpa-Feathered Serpent
Lofwyr
Lung- Eastern Dragon
Masaru- Eastern Dragon
Rhonabwy
The Sea Dragon
Ryumyo- Eastern Dragon

Dragons of the Sixth World being the main book used. Note that in EarthDawn Feather Serpents don't appear, nor do Eastern Dragons seem to. Therefore you likely won't see Hualpa, Lung, Masaru or Ryumyo in Earthdawn products.

Matchs Up that are Certain:
Dunklezahn = Mountain Shadow
Ghostwalker = Icewing

Suggested:
Alamaise = Lofwyr (same coloration, involvement with elves)

Now if you have a suggested match up be sure to include why.

[LadyTevar]

I know ShadowRun better than EarthDawn, but I agree with your choices so far. Here are my guesses

Aden= Aban
The similarity of names is probably not a coincidence, although I have no better reason than that.


Celedyr ... The Welsh Dragon, iirc.
In Welsh myth, the Red Dragon lived underground, preferring the Earth to the Sky. This makes me think Celedyr = EarthRoot.

[Cynical Cat]

Icewing is Lofwyr aka Dollmaker from his habit of using drakes and other magically created proxies, which continues in Shadowrun. Lofwyr means "Icewing" in German.

Eastern dragons existed in Earthdawn, but as the game mostly took place in the Ukraine, feathered serpents are unheard of and eastern dragons are rare.

[B4UTRUST]

Well, except for the fact that Icewing is blue and silver(secret societies of barsaive, pg 7) while Lofwyr is gold(corporate shadowfiles, threats pg 63). Otherwise I'd agree.

I'm going with Icewing=Doll-Maker=Ghostwalker.

Icewing is Dunk's brother(of the All-Wings clutch), while Lofwyr is the brother of Alamaise(Alamais in SR, described by Alamaise as such in Night's Pawn Pg 18-19).

Lowfyr has been around and is running S-K. Icewing didn't show up until the Year of the Comet following his brother's death(2061) where his spirit came through the rift and reclaimed its physical form.

Icewing pioneered the creation of drakes(thus the title Dollmaker) and is a master of spirit magics. He also has the unusual elemental control of making ice storms by beating his wings(hence Icewing).

Lofwyr uses posessing metamagics, not creation like Icewing. Lofwyr also has the title of Goldensnout and Gold Master. Two very different titles then Dollmaker or Icewing. He also holds the title of Loremaster from his posession of the knowledge taken from the Jewel of Memory following the Rite of Succession that Icewing did participate in along with the others.

Also, Icewing took up residence in Denver following his coming, while Lofwyr lives in TT or S-K headquarters in Germany.

And to finish it off, it's Eisflügel. Not Lofwyr.

That's my reasons for thinking that Icewing is NOT Lofwyr.

[frigidmagi]

I'm with B4 here. In Earthdawn they make it very clear that Icewing and Mountain Shadow are brothers, both the children of the dragon All Wings.

In Shadowrun they repeatably state that there is a deep resemblance between Ghostwalker and Dunklezahn. You know... Like family resemblance?

In Year of the Comet Rhonabwy statement on Ghostwalker's appearance is

"I issue my condolences for his loss"

The Dragon just showed up! What could he have lost that Rhonabwy would feel the need to publicly issue condolences for? Expect the death of a Dragon close to them, such as a brother. Such as Dunklezahn.

Also checking with German speaker, Lofwyr is not German for Icewing.

I'm not sure why taking up residence in Denver is important could you explain that B4?

B4 if I understand right you're saying I'm wrong on Lofwyr being Alamaise could you explain why?


Tev

While you're right on Celedyr liking to hang out underground, Earthroot in Earthdawn is mother of pearl and green coated. Celedyr is red. I'm thinking maybe Celedyr is his son or a student of his? Which would explain the shared interest. Of course its possible that there is no connection and they just independently share a hobby.

[B4UTRUST]

Yes, Frigid, you're incorrect on Lofwyr being Alamaise. They're brothers, not the same person. As per my reference in Night's Pawn pg 18-19 where Alamaise states that Lofwyr=brother.

Secondly, during the Rite of Succession Alamaise stole the Jewel of Memory from Lofwyr in a bid to become the new Loremaster. However, Lofwyr had, with great foresight, removed the knowledge from the Jewel and stored it in some sort of astral plane so Alamaise took an empty jewel.

Also, Alamaise is constantly trying to chip at Lofwyr's domination in Europe and Germany specifically, as part of their sibling rivalry. This mainly stemmed from rivalry that started from Lofwyr pushing Alamaise south, where he then created the Wyrm Wood and then supposedly the elven race(Blood Wood, pg 29).

Attempts by Alamaise to attack Lofwyr's domain were helping fund and organize groups like der Nachtmachen in the early 2050s (which failed when der Nachtmachen were destroyed again and Alamaise went down under a barrage of laser-fire), manipulating Winternight to plant a nuke in Berlin (2060, defeated in astral combat by Lofwyr and the mage Talon) and stealing the Jewel of Memory in 2063 (it was currently defunct, as Lofwyr had moved its essence to a metaplane, so Alamaise ended up with a useless 3ft crystal).

As for the significance of Denver, aka the Front Range Free Zone, is his old pad(or very close to it) from the 4th Age.

[B4UTRUST]

Also, Aden and Aban are clearly not the same person as Aban is a female Western Dragon while Aden is a male Sirrush(the only known example of the Sirrush dragons, an offshoot of the Eastern dragons).

[Cynical Cat]

Damn internet sites lying to me about German.

I know little about Ghostmaker. I pretty much stopped paying much attention to Shadowrun just before Dunkelzhan's death.

I was going to add Ice Wing was most definitely not Amalaise, but B4 beat me to the punch.

[B4UTRUST]

I was talking to Frigid last night and pretty much linked all the immortal elves and dragons I could think of. Helps that I've got all the books and novels.

[LadyTevar]

So are you two going to post it, as I wiff'd the links?

[frigidmagi]

We mostly linking up the elves and dragons to the names of shadowrun "posters" in the books.

[B4UTRUST]

magi: I'm trying to figure out which dragon is Laughing Man though.

BraidedShinigami: The laughing man wasn't a dragon

BraidedShinigami: The Laughing Man is Harlequin

BraidedShinigami: one of the immortal elves

magi: That would explain the depths of his knowledge I guess.

BraidedShinigami: Caimbueul(aka Caimbuel) Har'lea'quinn is known to have been around since the Age of Legend

BraidedShinigami: he also had the same teacher in wizardry and swordsmanship as Ehran the Scribe

BraidedShinigami: He was also a Knight of the Crimson Spire, later a Knight of the Crying Spire, in the City of Spires. He was the ambassador from Sereatha to the Blood Wood after the Sourge

magi: Fun. He's part of the Tir in Shadowrun isn't he? Tir Tangire I mean.

BraidedShinigami: At times...

BraidedShinigami: Though he's just as often on his own side

BraidedShinigami: moreso actually

BraidedShinigami: he's also one of three confirmed people who speak the immortal elvish language that predates Sperethiel

magi: Yet another aincent elf language. Yay.

BraidedShinigami: well, this one is somewhat justifiable since they have been around since the 4th age of the world

BraidedShinigami: and so far to my knowledge the only three that speak it are three known immortals

BraidedShinigami: The Harlequin, Ehran, and Ehran's daughter

magi: Earthdawn is the 4th age right?

magi: Was the time before horrors the 3rd age?

BraidedShinigami: yes, and the dragons have been around since the Age of Dragons

BraidedShinigami: which is the 2nd age

BraidedShinigami: Although, for reference the Horrors were in Shadowrun

BraidedShinigami: Harlequin makes reference to them in the creatures of europe book concerning the Wraiths

magi: So when was the 1st age? Yeah but those are weak baby horrors compared to the Earthdawn ones.

BraidedShinigami: and in Harlequin's Back, the short fiction piece entitled Voices from the Past involves Harlequin talking to one of the passions

BraidedShinigami: Harlequin in this adventures takes the runners on a astral quest to take on some world-destroying level horrors

BraidedShinigami: Hell, there's more references to the Horrors in the novel House of the Sun

BraidedShinigami: as well as in the Aztlan sourcebook in which it's implied that the president of Aztech is a Horror construct

BraidedShinigami: as well as people's auras being "corrupted" which was 4th world terminology for Horror taint

magi: I figured if anyone was fucking around with Horrors it would be Aztech. Which explains why Ghostwalker destroyed their temple.

BraidedShinigami: indeed

BraidedShinigami: Of course the ones that everyone still keeps their eyes on are Ehran and Harlequin

BraidedShinigami: Those two are behind more then most people can guess

BraidedShinigami: save for the dragons they're the oldest living beings in either game, both predating most of the other Great Elves

BraidedShinigami: so yeah...

BraidedShinigami: Lets see here...

BraidedShinigami: References to Ambrose are at my best guess references to Ehran the Scribe

BraidedShinigami: Bright Light is Harlequin as it references Leonardo DaVinci who most people believe to be Harelquin

BraidedShinigami: Frosty is Jane 'Frosty' Foster, daughter of Ehran

BraidedShinigami: Ghost in the Machine is the probable nom de net for Ghostwalker

BraidedShinigami: Goldminer is Lofwyr

BraidedShinigami: Hecate would be the immortal Aina most likely

BraidedShinigami: -H- is of course Harlequin's net handle

BraidedShinigami: Now if you want to get REAAAL specific, Lofwyr currently claims the title of Loremaster and is considered the current Loremaster

magi: Ghost in the Machine I knew. Practically admits it in Dragons in of the Sixth World. Ditto Orange Queen and Scirpt Diver.

BraidedShinigami: but there are pleanty of hints that there were others with that claim

BraidedShinigami: Nachtmeister was the best bet as the other 'Loremaster'

BraidedShinigami: TGND is Celedyr

BraidedShinigami: as is Tsangara

BraidedShinigami: Wordsmythe is Ehran

BraidedShinigami: Dr. Antonio Vieri is possible Leonardo whom again is speculated to possibly be Harlequin

[LadyTevar]

BraidedShinigami: Bright Light is Harlequin as it references Leonardo DaVinci who most people believe to be Harelquin

*BUZZZZZ* Wrong Answer!

See the novel "Black Madonna". According to it, Leonardo -was- an immortal elf, but one who called himself Lucifer. In the novel he's got a plan to stop the Horrors from returning, and your Hapless Heros get stuck in the middle of it. Unfortunately, as with all ShadowRun novels, it doesn't work out the way it should.

It's been a couple years since I read it, so I can't recall just what Leo/Lucifer was trying to do. Ask rheonix, I believe that might be one that I sold to him. I do recall Leo/Lucifer pleading as literally his laboratory burnt down around his pointed ears, courtesy of an annoyed Lofwyr in dragonform. It left me wondering if the "No, you fool dragon, you don't know what you've done!" was madman's rantings or not. In ShadowRun, the former is more likely.

[LadyTevar]

Missed this one the first time around...

BraidedShinigami: Hell, there's more references to the Horrors in the novel House of the Sun

There's another figure in the House of the Sun: Quinton Harlique (Harley?). As the hero is talking to another elf, the novel actually has the hero note to himself that the elf slowly repeated the name, last name first like a computer database would display it. That was for the slow-readers out there who didn't get the joke the FIRST time.

[B4UTRUST]

Harlequin did play a part in House of the Sun, but there are a few references to Horrors in it as well.

and I never stated that it was a concrete fact that Leonardo and Harlequin were the same person, just speculation. I don't know myself as it's been awhile since I read Black Madona or any of the other books he appears in.

[B4UTRUST]

However, after some research into old Earthdawn stuff I have found references to him.

Specifically in the Sky Point/Vivane boxed set, book 3 pg 42-43:

"The unusual place known as Lorafern lies at the western end of a side-trail off the main southern road, deep in a clearly artifical wooded copse about half a mile in circumference. The trees seem to burst with life and flocks of birds sing in their branches. In the heart of the woods stands what looks like a small house, built entirely of crystal with a central dome. The house is larger on the inside than seems possible, and only its single resident may understand the truth of that phenomenon.

The house was named Lorafern by the elven scholar and wizard who lives there. Leonarus, as he refers to himself, is of Theran origin and appears ancient. most of his head hair is gone, though the thick white fringe remaining hangs below his hsoulders. unusual for an elf, he sports a magnificent flowing white beard. Though Leonarus lives alone and apparently defenseless, woe betide anyone who tries to harm him. An array of crystal warriors the size of trolls will spring instantly from Lorafern's walls. These formidable opponents can strike down an enemy with a single blow, no matter how powerful or resistant to damage the attacker may be.

Leonarus is kindly but aloof, preoccupied with astronomy and his studies of the properties of light. he builds lenses and crystal prisms with which to refract light and observe it. Leonarus has developed his own arcance theory of magical and natural forces, of which the understanding of light and its properties is a cardinal feature. This theory is beyond the ken of any adventurer, especially when Leonarus begins to expound on such esoteric subjects as the nature of astral refractions of the blending of elements in the astral color continuum. Whether as a result of the elf's studies or for some other reason, astral space is Safe for a radius of eight miles around Lorafern.

Leonarus' knowledge and resources rival those of the Eternal Library. He has lived for a very, very long time, well beyond the natural life span of an elf, and he remembers events of antiquity with great clarity. However, his arcane interests consume his mind, leaving him with little interest int he deeds of adventurers. He remains unimpressed by any legends they may have to tell him. The old elf may know everything there is to know if the gamemaster chooses to use Leonarus in such a way, but his scale of values and interests may mean that he attaches no importance to matters adventurers find crucial and invests great significance in matters that adventurers do not consider worth the time of day. Leonarus places great value on magical treasures and relics associated with light and astral space, and can certainly research them or privide key knowledges about them. Items of fabulous magical and monetary value lie scattered casually around his home, and his wealth makes him a good patron for penurious adventurers. "