Order of the Stick Comment thread 611 and counting.

[Cynical Cat]

Miko was stripped of her powers. The will of her gods was clear as was her status as a violator of her sacred oaths, which is how she got stripped of them in the first place. That her overdeveloped pride was the emotion was what drove her to violate her oaths and try to rationalize away the consequences does not make her honourable. It makes her dishonourable, pathetic, and deluded.

[The Minx]

Miko was stripped of her powers. The will of her gods was clear as was her status as a violator of her sacred oaths, which is how she got stripped of them in the first place. That her overdeveloped pride was the emotion was what drove her to violate her oaths and try to rationalize away the consequences does not make her honourable. It makes her dishonourable, pathetic, and deluded.

I did not say that her attempts to rationalize the consequences made her honorable. I said that it did not make her dishonorable. Not semantics, since her failures were not a result of her breaking her code of honor, but due to her failing to uphold the many other virtues that a paladin needs to have to prevent that honor from turning in on itself.

I think you are using the word "honor" in too broad a sense. Traditionally, it is not the same as "ethical" or "right", people could (and can) do nasty things in the name of "honor" if they lack virtues such as contrition, humility, compassion and self-reflection. Nowadays, we may use "honor" in such a broad sense, but I suspect that Soon, as an archetypal not-really-Japanese samurai in a faux-medieval setting would have used the phrase to refer to the more traditional concept.

[Cynical Cat]

A paladin does not swear a simple pseudo medieval vow of fealty to a medieval master. She swears to uphold an honour code that exalts those virtues and commands a paladin to be an exemplar of them. Failure to do so is breaking one's sworn word and is dishonourable. Miko did not merely fail to uphold her sworn word, she failed so catastrophically her abilities were removed in a spectacular display of divine displeasure.

[The Minx]

A paladin does not swear a simple pseudo medieval vow of fealty to a medieval master. She swears to uphold an honour code that exalts those virtues and commands a paladin to be an exemplar of them. Failure to do so is breaking one's sworn word and is dishonourable. Miko did not merely fail to uphold her sworn word, she failed so catastrophically her abilities were removed in a spectacular display of divine displeasure.

Again, honor is not the only virtue a paladin should have. Yes, she needs to be an exemplar of virtue, but she has to be that in addition to upholding her honor. In other words, she has to be both Lawful and Good, the one is not encompassed by the other.

[Cynical Cat]

Again, honor is not the only virtue a paladin should have. Yes, she needs to be an exemplar of virtue, but she has to be that in addition to upholding her honor. In other words, she has to be both Lawful and Good, the one is not encompassed by the other.

Agreed, but it doesn't address my argument. She broke a sacred oath. Therefore she dishonoured herself. Therefore the honour of a paladin is not unbreakable.

As a side note, you need to read Caine Black Knife to get really high quality paladin dickery.

[The Minx]

Again, honor is not the only virtue a paladin should have. Yes, she needs to be an exemplar of virtue, but she has to be that in addition to upholding her honor. In other words, she has to be both Lawful and Good, the one is not encompassed by the other.

Agreed, but it doesn't address my argument. She broke a sacred oath. Therefore she dishonoured herself. Therefore the honour of a paladin is not unbreakable.

As a side note, you need to read Caine Black Knife to get really high quality paladin dickery.

In her view, she was upholding it by defending Azure City against the nefarious plotting of Xykon-ally Roy Greenhilt and the traitorous Lord Shojo who was selling out the City of the Gods to Evil. Her flaw was a delusion borne of pride borne of insanity (or insanity borne of pride, perhaps?) borne of lack of compassion and humility, etc. That's not dishonor per se.


I need to look into this Caine Black Knife.

[Cynical Cat]

In her view, she was upholding it by defending Azure City against the nefarious plotting of Xykon-ally Roy Greenhilt and the traitorous Lord Shojo who was selling out the City of the Gods to Evil. Her flaw was a delusion borne of pride borne of insanity (or insanity borne of pride, perhaps?) borne of lack of compassion and humility, etc. That's not dishonor per se.

Sure it is. Her opinion of the matter is irrelevant. She can, and did, rationalize her oath breaking. Again, that's irrelevant. People rationalize away their actions all the time. She had no conclusive evidence that her lawful liege lord was a traitor nor did she attempt to obtain any. She simply murdered him and she didn't stop there. When stripped of her powers by the gods she refused to accept responsibility for her actions and continued on as before, despite the fact that she had unequivocal evidence that she had acted improperly. So yes, a knight who is oathsworn to the serve the gods and her liege lord and betrays both is an oathbreaker and is dishonourable.

[The Minx]

Sure it is. Her opinion of the matter is irrelevant. She can, and did, rationalize her oath breaking. Again, that's irrelevant. People rationalize away their actions all the time. She had no conclusive evidence that her lawful liege lord was a traitor nor did she attempt to obtain any. She simply murdered him and she didn't stop there. When stripped of her powers by the gods she refused to accept responsibility for her actions and continued on as before, despite the fact that she had unequivocal evidence that she had acted improperly. So yes, a knight who is oathsworn to the serve the gods and her liege lord and betrays both is an oathbreaker and is dishonourable.

Her opinion is not irrelevant, since she was not acting in poor faith. The fact that she had no evidence that her Lord was not a traitor was a breach of reason, not a breach of loyalty to the gods. The second point of your argument is a lot stronger, but her actions at that stage were more akin to insanity rather than rationalizations of one intent on mischief.

I suspect we're disagreeing because you hold a more consequentialist view of honor while I hold more of a intent-based one.

[Cynical Cat]

Her opinion is not irrelevant, since she was not acting in poor faith. The fact that she had no evidence that her Lord was not a traitor was a breach of reason, not a breach of loyalty to the gods. The second point of your argument is a lot stronger, but her actions at that stage were more akin to insanity rather than rationalizations of one intent on mischief.

You're incorrect and confusing honour and morality. Miko violated her vow of obedience to her lawful overlord and then defied corrective action by the gods she had sworn to serve. She is twice dishonoured. You're confusing the fact that her motive was to do good, which was her justification for killing her liege lord. She is not insane by any clinical definition when she defies her gods, merely in denial because she cannot admit to herself she had fallen. Miko isn't malicious, but she is so prideful and pig headed that she will break her vows and disgrace herself because she will not admit to being wrong. That's a character flaw, not insanity.

[Rogue 9]

697 is up.

[LadyTevar]

So, just how tricky is Girard, hmm?

[Dark Silver]

Depends on how crafty and paranoid he was.....

[Hadrianvs]

Depends on how crafty and paranoid he was.....

I would have triple bluffed with a fake gate hiding behind my trap and in front of the real gate.

[The Minx]

Depends on how crafty and paranoid he was.....

Probably very much so on both counts.


Sorry, been away a while.

You're incorrect and confusing honour and morality. Miko violated her vow of obedience to her lawful overlord and then defied corrective action by the gods she had sworn to serve. She is twice dishonoured. You're confusing the fact that her motive was to do good, which was her justification for killing her liege lord. She is not insane by any clinical definition when she defies her gods, merely in denial because she cannot admit to herself she had fallen. Miko isn't malicious, but she is so prideful and pig headed that she will break her vows and disgrace herself because she will not admit to being wrong. That's a character flaw, not insanity.

Um, her motive was not to do good, her motive was to act in accord with her code and duty to her city which is higher than her duty to her lord. It is you who are confusing morality an honor.

Again, do you think that we disagree because you hold a more consequentialist view of honor while I hold more of a intent-based one?

[Cynical Cat]

Be

Um, her motive was not to do good, her motive was to act in accord with her code and duty to her city which is higher than her duty to her lord. It is you who are confusing morality an honor.

Again, do you think that we disagree because you hold a more consequentialist view of honor while I hold more of a intent-based one?

No, her motive was to do good and protect her city by breaking her oath of obedience and killing her liege lord.

No, we don't disagree because I hold a more consequentialist view of honour. I tend to hold a more consequentialist view of morality. Morally speaking, if Miko had been correct (and better evidence) she would have been morally justified to hack down her lord, although she still would have dishonoured herself.

[The Minx]

No, her motive was to do good and protect her city by breaking her oath of obedience and killing her liege lord.

Then we disagree on what her motives were. To me, she came off as all "duty, duty" rather than "what would be the good thing to do", and that this was her major flaw. Her inner monologues certainly seemed to point towards more obedience based mindset.

No, we don't disagree because I hold a more consequentialist view of honour. I tend to hold a more consequentialist view of morality. Morally speaking, if Miko had been correct (and better evidence) she would have been morally justified to hack down her lord, although she still would have dishonoured herself.

OK, well I thought I saw consequentialism (as opposed to intent based evaluation) in there somewhere.

[Cynical Cat]

No, her motive was to do good and protect her city by breaking her oath of obedience and killing her liege lord.

Then we disagree on what her motives were. To me, she came off as all "duty, duty" rather than "what would be the good thing to do", and that this was her major flaw. Her inner monologues certainly seemed to point towards more obedience based mindset.

Miko never wondered about what the good thing to do is. She's confident that she already knows and conveniently that answer confirms her prejudices. She placed her judgment ahead of her liege-lord's, violating her oath of obedience.

[The Minx]

No, her motive was to do good and protect her city by breaking her oath of obedience and killing her liege lord.

Then we disagree on what her motives were. To me, she came off as all "duty, duty" rather than "what would be the good thing to do", and that this was her major flaw. Her inner monologues certainly seemed to point towards more obedience based mindset.

Miko never wondered about what the good thing to do is. She's confident that she already knows and conveniently that answer confirms her prejudices. She placed her judgment ahead of her liege-lord's, violating her oath of obedience.

Nonetheless, her inner monologues are consistent with doing her duty and not with doing good. Not once do we see her say "this would be the good thing to do", we often see her think and talk about duty. And again, as a paladin, her duty to her gods (and her city) is more important than her duty to her lord. There are times when it would be her duty to turn against him (such as if he were a traitor).

If she were an "ordinary", non-ecclasiastical samurai or knight, you might be right, since then her duty to her lord would be paramount, but she is not.

[Cynical Cat]

Nonetheless, her inner monologues are consistent with doing her duty and not with doing good. Not once do we see her say "this would be the good thing to do", we often see her think and talk about duty. And again, as a paladin, her duty to her gods (and her city) is more important than her duty to her lord. There are times when it would be her duty to turn against him (such as if he were a traitor).

If she were an "ordinary", non-ecclasiastical samurai or knight, you might be right, since then her duty to her lord would be paramount, but she is not.

1) The use of the word "duty" does not in any way damage my argument, even if I were to accept Miko's inner thoughts as definitive (I do not, see point two). There are moral duties which are separate from sworn duties and paladins are obliged to obey both. Miko's spectacular failure is her belief that she was fulfilling her moral duties by violating her sworn obedience. Her reality was failing both.

2)Miko's inner thoughts do not support such a claim because of her persistent attempts to rationalize away her actions. She does not admit wrong doing or fault in her fall and she attempts to deny the verdict of her gods despite overwhelming evidence. It is manifestly clear that her actions are based on her hubris and prejudice, despite her belief that she is in the right.

[The Minx]

1) The use of the word "duty" does not in any way damage my argument, even if I were to accept Miko's inner thoughts as definitive (I do not, see point two). There are moral duties which are separate from sworn duties and paladins are obliged to obey both. Miko's spectacular failure is her belief that she was fulfilling her moral duties by violating her sworn obedience. Her reality was failing both.

Nowhere do her thoughts or words give me the impression that she was thinking about moral duties as opposed to sworn duties. Do you have any specific rants of hers in mind?

Honestly, this interpretation is one I have never before seen, and I have seen many rants on Miko, both good and bad and both for and against. She is almost universally depicted as being fanatically motivated by law and duty, and in those rare instances where she is interpreted as being moved by morality, even then people interpret her as being motivated by it less than by law and duty.

2)Miko's inner thoughts do not support such a claim because of her persistent attempts to rationalize away her actions. She does not admit wrong doing or fault in her fall and she attempts to deny the verdict of her gods despite overwhelming evidence. It is manifestly clear that her actions are based on her hubris and prejudice, despite her belief that she is in the right.

The fact that she makes rationalizations do not support the idea that it was moral duty and not sworn duty which motivated her, you can rationalize your failings away regardless of whether you are motivated by the one or the other.

[Cynical Cat]

I'm not referring to any of her rants. To be clear, I making the point that Miko is, by her very nature, an unreliable narrator given to rationalizing away her actions and denial of her wrong doing. The only thing her inner thoughts support is a clear case of her refusal to accept any responsibility for her actions. Whether or not she's thinking about honour or morality is irrelevant, because she believes herself to be clean on both counts.

Her true motivations are self-righteousness and prejudice and as a result her actions are both immoral and dishonourable. Her internal justification is that she is in the right and everyone else is wrong and dishonourable, thus making her both honourable and virtuous. The fact is that she does not pursue an investigation, does not bring formal charges (she clearly doesn't have the legal right to kill people based on suspicion), marshal support, or think rationally about the matter. Instead she murders her liege-lord based on suspicion, violating her oath of fealty and the laws of the city she pledged herself to defend.

Her opinion of the matter is that she is justified by circumstances. She has, however, not made a good faith effort (or any effort at all) to verify the truth of her suspicions (in a universe with easy access to mind probing and truth magics) before taking extreme actions. Miko's commitments are clearly shallow, overruled by her suspicion and prejudice. Her actions cannot be considered either honourable or moral.

[The Minx]

OK, that makes a lot more sense. I entirely agree that she is self-righteous, lacking in ability to think rationally about her own actions and that she holds herself higher than any of her peers. As for her actions, I also entirely agree that they were immoral, both going by motivation and consequence. Finally, regardless of her intentions she did kill her lord without just cause.

My point was that her intentions and motivations need not have been dishonorable, since pride and irrationality do not preclude honor. I don't agree that her internal narrations are so unreliable as to be irrelevant. If that were true, we could not claim not know the characters feelings even with our god's-eye view of their minds, which IMHO is absurd.

Also, she invoked the laws when she killed Shojo, but we know far less about these laws than we know about what goes on in her head. I reiterate that as she is a paladin, her loyalty to her gods must supersede her loyalty to her lord, and that for all we know, it might very well have been possible in principle for her to have legal right and duty to execute Shojo under the circumstances, even though it obviously wasn't so when push came to shove.

As an aside, she had gained reasonable cause to mistrust mind-scanning techniques, due to the fact that Lord Shojo openly admitted to having successfully deceived the Sapphire Guard during the trial. He also very likely had the courts in his pocket. Of course, this is not justification in and of itself to strike Lord Shojo down.

[The Minx]

After nine days, a double update: 698.

Looks like Girard is snooping, we'll have to wait and see whether he makes his presence known. If not, they will find it hard to find him, since he'll be aware of their tricks.

[frigidmagi]

700

Oy. That bitch is not operating at what we call max capacity. I thought the MiD had strong reality denying powers but daammmn...

Bitch is crazy.

[Charon]

That shadow dude scares me...