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Bleeding Cool

Today, Dan DiDio told a packed hall at Baltimore Comic Con that heroes shouldn’t get married. And he explained how heroes have to sacrifice their personal lives. And that is why Kathy Kane wasn’t allowed to marry Maggie Sawyer in Batwoman.

But of course, Aquaman is married to Mera.

Isn’t he?

She’s referred to as his queen, and before the New 52 relaunch of the title two years ago, they were a married couple… but actually in the series so far since then, he has never once referred to her as his wife, only as his queen. You might have thought the two would go together.

Apparently not.

I was just assured by a senior DC executive that, quite deliberately, “Aquaman is not married in New 52″. And never was. No Mephisto needed.

Is this a DC Comics War Against Marriage? Someone tell Fox!

You know I'm discussing this with Havoc right now and I am going to steal his argument entire.

Here's what Havoc had to say

The problem isn't that DiDio said that Heroes shouldn't be married. The problem is that DiDio said all Heroes must or shouldn't be X. It doesn't matter what X is, when you try to jam all these characters (DC has hundreds of characters) into the same cookie cutter mold, it will fail. It is has stupid as saying all Heroes must be left handed or they all must be white. The first one would be laughed out of the office and the second would get someone fired but it's the same problem.

Additionally, this is all underlaid by the fact that DC is poorly built as an institution. It will continue to do stupid shit because that is all it is designed to do. And until DC is rebuilt from the ground up, it will continue to fail and do stupid shit by design.

....
I second Havoc. I also add what does this mean to Supes and Lois?

Supes is currently dating Wonder Woman after Lois dumped him for some new guy.

...............

ok, DC sucks.

Which is what Danny "I Am the Law!" Didio, calls "NEW AND EXCITING STORIES!" Which was done in Kingdom Come and every fucking Elsewhere story with Superman and Wonder Woman! Seriously Superman and Wonderwoman is not new and exciting. You did it in Kingdom Come! You did it in Dark Knight Strikes Again! You've done it over and over again and the fan response is "Meh."

You promised me new stories that were original and good. Here's the problem. The parts that are original are for the most part (stuff like Batwoman and Demon Knights excluded) are not good and the parts that are good are not original. Fuck I gave up a Transformers JL crossover for this?

Just a thought. Perhaps the reason that DiDio does these things is that the only negative response that it engenders is people complaining on messageboards nobody reads.

After all, there is literally nothing he could do that is so stupid as to cause us to stop talking about him. And nothing we say here will have the slightest effect. So since this is the only sort of reaction that his actions generate, why wouldn't he keep running DC this way?

Well it keeps me from buying DC comics. I'm aware that I'm just one guy but it's not like the US comic market is a deep and wide part of the population at the moment. I also assume that if it's enough for me to quit and say NOPE! There are others quitting. Surely causing readers to drop out would be a problem?

Course I can't tell you if readers are dropping in any number. It may be that there's a mass of belly aching but assholes just keep buying the comics (like some Spiderfans who scream and cry but look at me like I'm a manic when I say stop buying the comic). If the second is true then... Well of course he won't stop.

I never was a big DC fan, going back to when I was a kid and I primarily read Marvel, but news like this definitely keeps me from even looking at the New 52.

General Havoc wrote:Just a thought. Perhaps the reason that DiDio does these things is that the only negative response that it engenders is people complaining on messageboards nobody reads.

After all, there is literally nothing he could do that is so stupid as to cause us to stop talking about him. And nothing we say here will have the slightest effect. So since this is the only sort of reaction that his actions generate, why wouldn't he keep running DC this way?

That'd be a reasonable statement, except it isn't. I get that it's a sort of Devil's Advocate argument, but this stuff is getting broadcast everywhere.



Do a Google search on DC comics or Dan Didio and you'll find oceans of articles and blogs criticizing what's going on at DC right now from major news and fan sites, from Kotaku to Bleedingcool to everything in between. Critics have been slamming DC (and Marvel) from various angles for years now and you don't escape that level of noise. If the thought is "well they still sell comics", yeah, they do. In numbers that are a dismal fraction of what they were at the end of the 90's. DC's best selling books only manage around 100,000 sales, which are dropping at a steady pace and have been since the relaunch. Their total sales at relaunch were about 3.4 million, with their total sales as of January of this year being 1.9 million, and they're STILL. DROPPING.

There is no way to take that which isn't DC bleeding customers like a stuck pig.

Even if you assume their sales numbers from January have stayed stable, which is obviously not the case, they went from 3.4 to 1.9 million sales in under a year and a half. They're still dropping and nothing is indicating a major change in that. There are minor spikes from the crossover events and such, but then they're right back to falling down, getting cancelled, and moving on.

If DC sales figures were doing well and on the upswing, sure, DiDio could say whatever the hell he wanted and clearly we'd be in the minority for being pissed off by it, because clearly he's doing something right. I mean for fuck's sake, when you have a clear and present drop of sales on a Flagship Title when there's a blockbuster movie out that summer (45,458 to 42,155 from May to August for Superman), there's a fucking problem.

And yes, I'm aware of Superman Unchained, and how its sales are currently quite good. We'll see how long that lasts, it's already lost over 100,000 readers from the 250,000 or so it had since issue #1.

If the above is true, then DC will fail, and DiDio will be fired, or the company will fold underneath him. And if it is not the case, then he will not be. Either way however, since none of us buy DC comics (I think. If I'm wrong about this, then ignore my conclusion), our outrage is irrelevant.

Either way, DiDio is a symptom of a greater problem, as Frigid and I discussed earlier. DC's entire structure is set up to fail, and fail in this specific manner. And no person, even one without DiDio's particular set of hangups and insanities, could fix that simply by taking over his spot. I posit that given DC's management structure, you could put Gail Simone herself into DiDio's job, and she would fail roughly as hard as he has. Not because Simone is an idiot (for she is not), nor because DiDio is not an idiot (for he is). The reason is because DC's editorial and executive structure is built so as to promote DiDio-like qualities in its upper management, and to generate massive dissatisfaction in writers. The particulars will vary, but it doesn't matter who you put in DiDio's seat. The same thing will keep happening until they completely rebuild their organizational structure.

This does not excuse DiDio himself, of course. For all I know, he built this structure. But his removal will not solve the problem.

General Havoc wrote:If the above is true, then DC will fail, and DiDio will be fired, or the company will fold underneath him. And if it is not the case, then he will not be. Either way however, since none of us buy DC comics (I think. If I'm wrong about this, then ignore my conclusion), our outrage is irrelevant.

I tried to give DC a chance with the relaunch, I put up with their stupid digital policies and bought several issues over Comixology. I couldn't keep going. I also talk to a lot of other people who are comic fans and tell them what's going on. Some of them are either currently buying or thinking of getting back into comics. Word of mouth is never irrelevant, especially in a potential consumer base as networked as we are.

And we WANT comics to get better, because we want to actually buy them, but we're being actively told to fuck off.

Either way, DiDio is a symptom of a greater problem, as Frigid and I discussed earlier. DC's entire structure is set up to fail, and fail in this specific manner. And no person, even one without DiDio's particular set of hangups and insanities, could fix that simply by taking over his spot. I posit that given DC's management structure, you could put Gail Simone herself into DiDio's job, and she would fail roughly as hard as he has. Not because Simone is an idiot (for she is not), nor because DiDio is not an idiot (for he is). The reason is because DC's editorial and executive structure is built so as to promote DiDio-like qualities in its upper management, and to generate massive dissatisfaction in writers. The particulars will vary, but it doesn't matter who you put in DiDio's seat. The same thing will keep happening until they completely rebuild their organizational structure.

This does not excuse DiDio himself, of course. For all I know, he built this structure. But his removal will not solve the problem.

It would be a start.

Hotfoot wrote:I tried to give DC a chance with the relaunch, I put up with their stupid digital policies and bought several issues over Comixology. I couldn't keep going. I also talk to a lot of other people who are comic fans and tell them what's going on. Some of them are either currently buying or thinking of getting back into comics. Word of mouth is never irrelevant, especially in a potential consumer base as networked as we are.

And we WANT comics to get better, because we want to actually buy them, but we're being actively told to fuck off.

Yes, we are indeed being actively told to fuck off. But we are being told this because Word of Mouth is irrelevant when it is being spread only among those who've already made an active decision against the product. It's like Microsoft being concerned about what a console-war PS4 messageboard is saying. It has no bearing on anything.

Now, yes, insofar as they could potentially make better comics that we would buy, and are not doing so, I suppose what we think does matter, but I put that possibility on the same level as them creating perpetual motion machines or discovering a lost play of Shakespeare. The structure they employ is not capable of producing good comics, at least not as I define them. Not because of DiDio (unless he built the structure of course), but because the centralized control structure that DC uses to manage their various comic lines leads with almost mathematical certainty to a culture of editorial mandates. It is ultimately irrelevant, in my mind, what those mandates are. What is relevant is that DC is built in such as way as they are effectively mandatory. The crossover-obsessed parallel lines system they employ cannot function in any other way. This entire structure must be torn up by the roots if there is to be any positive change at DC.

Getting rid of DiDio is probably necessary to even consider such a thing. But it's not the main event.

Yes, because publically posting information others were not aware of to pass on is a fruitless waste of time. How dare we keep each other informed. After all, we only talk to each other and not other people, and there are no lurkers, and Tony Romo is your favorite quarterback of all time, the Cubs are winning the series, it's amazing....

By the way, I just rechecked, even Animal Man isn't safe, his wife left him after his big arc finished in the new 52.



DC's structure may be toxic right now, but the two men at the helm are DiDio and Lee, and Lee I'm willing to cut some slack, though not that much, because every time DiDio unhooks his foul pot, Lee's on some manner of damage control. They are the men in charge, and DiDio is the most vocal about how this is the best thing there ever is or was. Even if he is just blowing smoke, I'm sick of hearing it, and he rightfully deserves criticism for it. It may well be that all of the blame lies elsewhere in the company, but he's the Publisher. It's his responsibility to manage what happens in his company.

Oh you're fucking kidding me!

Yeah, that was months ago and I just remembered it in the wee hours last night.

Hotfoot wrote:Yes, because publically posting information others were not aware of to pass on is a fruitless waste of time. How dare we keep each other informed. After all, we only talk to each other and not other people, and there are no lurkers, and Tony Romo is your favorite quarterback of all time, the Cubs are winning the series, it's amazing....

You know, it occurs to me that maybe the reason comics are so fucked up at the moment is because they're trying to pitch their product on the intellectual level evidenced by replies like these.

That's not what I said, and you know that's not what I said, and because you had nothing to say in regards to it, you decided to be a sarcastic ass and lie about what I said for a cheap shot. You want to talk about comics, fine. You want to spit at anyone who suggests what the core problem is, you can do it by yourself. I hope DC comics never changes, and that you read the same hackery for the next fifty years, wondering all the while why nobody ever fixed your comics for you.

General Havoc wrote:You know, it occurs to me that maybe the reason comics are so fucked up at the moment is because they're trying to pitch their product on the intellectual level evidenced by replies like these.

That's not what I said, and you know that's not what I said, and because you had nothing to say in regards to it, you decided to be a sarcastic ass and lie about what I said for a cheap shot. You want to talk about comics, fine. You want to spit at anyone who suggests what the core problem is, you can do it by yourself. I hope DC comics never changes, and that you read the same hackery for the next fifty years, wondering all the while why nobody ever fixed your comics for you.

Yes, because I commonly engage in lying. Look man, you're the one making the claim that us discussing this stuff here is utterly pointless ("won't have the slightest effect" to use your words precisely), and that because things are already in motion there's no point in talking about them.

Well fuck you, you don't get to tell me what I am and am not allowed to talk about, and when you say things like that, the implied position is that you want me and everyone else to shut up about it because you don't want to hear it. It's a thread. You didn't need to walk into the room here and chip in your two cents if you didn't want to have the conversation. It's not like I barged into your house and held you down to talk about the subject. You're not a better person for implying that you're better off for not being bothered by it, so if those are the things you are adding to the conversation, I am going to get a bit annoyed, yes. The people who do care about it either lurking on the boards or otherwise talking about it will take this new information and pass it on to their circles of friends and so on and so forth and either some of them will stand up and make some noise if it's something they would have cared about, or they'll stop buying or just, you know, not go back to buying comics. And maybe, just maybe, if the buzzing noise of angry fans and customers gets loud enough, something will change in DC headquarters, because money talks, and a lot of people are voting with their wallets, and ultimately even DiDio and Lee have bosses they have to answer to.

My opinions, my thoughts, they are not irrelevant. It's not true on the grand level of if DC makes better sales or not because of the effect of the Internet with regards to word of mouth (which matters in this business, since most of the fan base is very tech savvy and that fact has done serious harm to the industry already), and it's absolutely not true on the personal level, which is absolutely what's implied by your prior statements, even if you didn't intend for it.

As far as DC goes, you're probably right that the structure extends far beyond DiDio and Lee, but DiDio's constantly unprofessional actions and boneheaded decisions have rightly made him the source for a large amount of derision, and while getting rid of him may not solve DC's problems, it's a start and would show that DC's higher ups are listening and want to, you know, make money again. Because that can be done, it absolutely can, even in this digital age. Fuck, you've seen it a thousand times with Webcomics. Virtually no cost to start up, and can keep the creators fed and happy during their runs, and able to tell stories well above the quality in many modern comics.

In all fairness, most webcomics do not feed their creators. The vast overwhelming majority of webcomics are a hobby or something the writer/artist does on the side because they want to. And many webcomics are abandoned before their stories are finished (R.I.P Keychain of Creation).

I did not say your thoughts on DC are irrelevant. I said your thoughts on DC (and mine) are irrelevant to Dan DiDio, and will be irrelevant to anyone who replaces Dan DiDio, because DC as a company is structured in such a way as there is no option but for them to be irrelevant to those people. Leaving aside the question of whether or not anyone lurks on these threads or not, DiDio's position is one where nobody's opinion matters, least of all those of people who are not buying comics right now. Whether that should be the case or not is irrelevant, that is the position that DC is in. DC's management structure is such that the only opinion that does matter is that of a small group of people at the top, or perhaps only the editor-in-chief. That may lead to the destruction of the company or it may not, but DC has built themselves a tower wherein external criticism simply does not matter. And while criticism on Twitter might get DiDio fired, nobody we put in DiDio's place given the current structure of DC is likely to behave in anything but a superficially different manner.

Webcomics and DC are structured completely differently. And until that's no longer the case, I would not look to DC responding to anything like what would push a Webcomic into acting a certain way.

Okay, I have to say Havoc makes a good point. DiDio has made it clear he doesn't give 3 shits about fan reaction and if I may be so bold, I don't think he cares about the opinions of most of his writers. Additionally, if Havoc is right (and there is more then a little evidence to show it) removing DiDio would be akin to throwing out a tyrant and installing a new one, the very systems of tyranny would soon compel the new tyrant to act in oppressive ways. Or to complete the metaphor, the structure of DC would require the new head to act in ways we didn't like.

That said, Hotfoot also has a good point that DiDio himself is source of the problem. He helped build the new structure and you will not get a new one without first getting rid of him.

Can we agree on that much?

Frigid:

Hence low overhead for starting a webcomic. There are enough webcomics that turn a profit (Several dozen at least of the ones that talk about it) that the model is one the comic book companies cannot afford to ignore. Though to be honest, most of the ones that fail are the ones that can't figure out how to operate professionally, like keeping a fucking buffer.


Havoc:

If the above is true, then DC will fail, and DiDio will be fired, or the company will fold underneath him. And if it is not the case, then he will not be. Either way however, since none of us buy DC comics (I think. If I'm wrong about this, then ignore my conclusion), our outrage is irrelevant.

This may be pedantic, but that reads exactly as irrelevant full stop, not irrelevant to DiDio. There is no indication through any of the earlier parts of the sentence showing any sort of reference to DiDio as a modifier to irrelevant. The previous sentences also do not set up any expectation that we are even referring to DiDio directly, rather we are referring to DC in general, which we can all agree is not simple a suit DiDio wears each day. Regardless, I do not think my conclusion based on what you wrote is unreasonable. If that is not what you meant, cool, I only ask that you be more clear in the future. That said, while DiDio may not care, other people in his company (and his parent company) may well care, but cannot act because he sat on the biggest increase in sales in the past decade and is using that to buy time to avoid a shutdown.

That said, if DiDio gets tossed on his ass in large part due to fan reaction, it would seem endlessly moronic for the guy who came in after him to not learn the lesson of his predecessor. It's not hard. Last guy got axed because he drove away customers by saying stupid shit. DO NOT DO THIS THING OR YOU ARE NEXT. It's pretty straightforward. Moreover, DiDio's ejection would likely see another reorganization of the company, which may be bad or worse, but may also be better, it's hard to say.

That's just it though. Even if DiDio was the one who created the management structure at DC (which he might be), his removal won't change a thing, as far as I'm concerned, nor will the identity of whoever replaces him matter insofar as DC's practices are concerned. The issue, as I said to Frigid before, isn't that DiDio thinks that all superheroes should be single. It's that he thinks that all superheroes should be anything, and his position in the management structure of DC is such that any such blanket statements he makes are going to be enforced, unilaterally. Put another person in the same position, and all that will change is which specific unilateral statement is being enforced. Even good comic writers have a style and a series of preferences as to how they think their comics should be written, and the position DiDio is in is one where someone in it must enforce their vision upon the comic creators below them. If they don't, then they won't be able to load the schedule with the crossover events that, for better or worse, the parent company of DC perceives as being the savior of the company's revenue. And if they try to move away from such things, they will simply be fired.

I'm not saying DiDio isn't an idiot, but his position is such that he cannot act any way besides the way he is acting. The fault for this may well lie with him, but removing him without tearing the structure down and rebuilding it won't change anything, at least in my view.

Look Hotfoot, Havoc isn't saying that DiDio should keep his job. Havoc is saying that DiDio is the tip of the iceberg and removing him needs to be the start of a restructuring campaign... Or you're just gonna have problems with a different guy.

No, I don't think the evidence is there that he's forced into a particular pattern of behavior, much less this pattern of behavior. The process of regular crossovers existed long before the current organizational structure of DC, and there's no evidence that the current structure is one that aids that process, though they probably believe it does. DiDio was top level editorial staff before becoming co-publisher of DC, and he oversaw the biggest fuckups in that department for years. Fuck, the man is on records as calling Countdown to Final Crisis "52 done right", which he orchestrated from his position as DC's Editor-in-Chief.

Replacing DiDio doesn't mean he'll be replaced by someone who has similarly meddling views by default. The concept is on the face of it absurd to me because it would mean each and every editor or management person that could possibly fill the position would have a similar mindset to DiDio. There is a massive difference between organizing crossovers and keeping characters consistent between books and what DiDio is currently engaged in. What I don't understand is this concept that DiDio's actions are a result of his position and the current organization, rather than DiDio just using his position the way he wants to.

Moreover, I'm not saying we stop with just getting rid of DiDio, I'm not opposed to restructuring DC from the ground up, I just don't understand this insistence that it's the position and not the man that's responsible for the actions of the man in the position. That logic simply does not track at all. The types of editorial fiat being enforced is unlike even what is going on over at Marvel right now, and beyond anything DC has set up, well, ever. That is coming from the man, not the position.

Often the first step to institutional change is tossing the old bum out and getting somebody to come in, clean sweep, and restructure how business is done.

So yes, DiDio would have to go and then the next person would have to institute a new ethos for the organization. Which in and of itself results in a resistance to putting a new head in, because you'll have all the expense of organizational retooling to boot, lots of mid-level management quitting or getting the boot, the new employees getting auditioned, oriented, and brought up to speed. It's a major, major change.

The thing about the entertainment industry is that pretty much in all forms of entertainment you have top-level management who have little regard for the product- I've seen in publishing, and seen a lot of anecdotal evidence for the same in the TV/movie industry as well. They don't understand why fans like what they like, and play numbers games to chase target demographics rather than encourage quality product. If "XYZ Stupidity!" sells for whatever reason, they'll run with it even if it's utter crap, because at the end of the day sales figures are what counts. Furthermore, they get concepts in their mind to bracket creative work into narrowly defined categories and resist anything that steps outside the box.

So for example we look at the endless wave of Wolverine-esque characters in the nineties. The companies saw that a brooding bad boy renegade who doesn't play by the rules and is willing to fight dirty was a winner once, so surely if we make another one pretty much just like him it'll sell too!

(And everyone does it and we have a shit-ton of knock-offs.)

In the meantime, people trying to push fresh ideas through are viewed askance because hey, is there anything like this out there? If there is, how is it doing? If not, well, we don't want to take a chance on that right now.

Tl;dr: On the business side of the creative industry, there's no interest in quality sustainable product. It's about the sales figures for the next quarter.