LibriumArcana.Games

In the class Religion in America, my professor said something that got me thinking. He said you could tell alot about how a society feels about change, order, values and so on from who they make their heroes and what those heroes are trying to do.

If any group fulfills the role of mythical heroes for us today it's the superheroes in the comic books. So what are they trying to do? Are they fighting to change the world or to prevent change?

Let me toss out some examples to think about.

The X-Men- I think these guys are clearly trying to effect change.

Batman- I think Bats is a big order fan personnally.

Superman?

Spiderman?

Captain America?

Wonder Women?

Green Latern?

Etc...

Superman?

Peace, justice and the American way, last I heard. So he's likely to be a big fan of benevolent order.

Spiderman?

"With great power comes great responsibility." He defeats the villains because there's not many people that can, and they need defeating. In short: he probably supports a stronger and more competent (preferably superpowered) policing system.

Captain America?

I'd say 'service to the country' in this respect. He's Captain America. So he's likely to be supportive of whatever government you lot had back in World War II.

Narsil wrote:"With great power comes great responsibility." He defeats the villains because there's not many people that can, and they need defeating. In short: he probably supports a stronger and more competent (preferably superpowered) policing system.

I don't think so. Spider-man has been vilified in his entire superhero career as a costumed vigilante. He hides his face, he works to protect his identity, and the cops have targeted him just as often as they've targeted the supervillains.

I put him in the camp that's outside order, myself. Or kind of on the fence... at best.

Captain America?

I'd say 'service to the country' in this respect. He's Captain America. So he's likely to be supportive of whatever government you lot had back in World War II.

The hell he is. You only have to read the recent Civil War issues to know Captain America doesn't take shit from anyone. He fights for what's right - he's gone against the government of the day more than once.

I was mostly referring to what I know about the characters, I don't read comics much.

Spidey is about doing the Right Thing, no matter what.

I'll go out on a limb and say that neither hero or group are for change because of change (or against it for the the fun of it), but because they want justice.
The X-Men lobby change so vehememently because they live in a fundamentally unjust system. Mutants are feared, vilified, even persecuted, to the point where there's organisations actively thrying to purge them. I'd lobby for change, too.
This isn't true for most of the other Marvel heroes and far as I can tell NONE of the DC ones. They're either tolerated, lauded and in some cases outright idolized.
As for the DC heroes, I'd say we work for order as long as it's just.
Me and Clark went up against a legally elected President of the United States when it became clear that was no longer the case.
Likewise, the Avengers have spoken up against stupid US government decisions (though I don't know how far they went).
I'm not sure you can make a clear change/order distinction here.
As for Spidey, his vilification is largely a thing of the past (or it used to be 2 years ago). While the Bugle continues its smear campaign, the people of NY have com to accept and even like him, and if the Police still have warrants against him, they can't be arsed to carry them out, to the point that Spidey can request and get active police support and traffic cops give him bogus citations for playing hood ornament. His 'villain' days are clearly over. These days, I'd put his status somewhere around where I am (remember, I started out as a criminal, too).

MEMO to self: there is no H in went

I often see your standard superhero (at least when you look at spiderman, batman admittedly my knowledge doesn't get very intimate with other heroes) as fighting against their own mistakes. Generally speaking supervillians exist -almost explicitly- because of their corresponding hero or heroine. Maybe this isn't always the case, but it's a belief I've held ever since I had the mind to analyze such things in an analytical manner.

Um-how about no? That barely works for me and the Joker and maybe a few others of my rogue's gallery. Given how Ra's predates my by some 600 years, how is he my fault? I didn't even know about Bane prior to Knightfall. How pray tell am I responsible for Firefly, Two-Face, Mr Freeze, or Black Mask?
Let's take Clark. How are Darkseid, Doomsday, or Lex Luthor his fault? Bizarro? Brainiac?
Did the Avengers cause the rise of Kang or Ultron? Is Dr Strange responsible for Dormammu's existence? Did Tony Stark create the Mandarin?
Sorry. The 'you created me I created you' villains are the exception, not the rule.

The X Men did not create Magneto... If anything the interaction between Magnus and Charles Xavier made the X Men. Neither did Spiderman create most of his collection of foes. Although the theme of hubris creating untended conquences runs straight through Spidey, Doc Oct and the Lizard.

frigidmagi wrote:If any group fulfills the role of mythical heroes for us today it's the superheroes in the comic books. So what are they trying to do? Are they fighting to change the world or to prevent change?

In the recent Civil War Big Time Marvel Event thing, the heroes are split in two camps: pro and anti registration.

The Pro-registration camp want superpowered beings to be known and under government authority. This means that they're fighting for change.

The Anti-registration camp want things back to where they were before shit hit the fan. So you could say they're fighting to prevent change.

Both are simplisitic analyses of the matter. The problem is this: the government wants superpowered beings to fall under SHIELD's authority. SHIELD is a bunch of nazi-wannabe arseholes. Superpower registration doesn't sound like a bad idea at all, but it's the way this is being done that makes it unacceptable to Captain America.

In D&D terms, Cap then might fall under "Neutral Good". Neither lawful or chaotic, but True Good. Although I haven't read anything more than the first two issues of Civil War, I have a feeling Spider-man - who's initially in Tony Stark's camp - might switch to Cap's. Because Spider-man is like Cap, in that he falls under the True Good alignment.

Both Cap and Spidey don't fight for any particular ideological train, but for what's right. Anyway that's my contribution on two particular Marvel heroes.

(incidentally I liked how the X-men basically said "Hah! Now you're gonna find out what this registration shit is like" which is a perfectly valid point)

Call me crazy, but I'd think that the ineffectual nature of government security against superpowered villains would make registration a quite blatantly bad idea. Even if nothing bad comes from it directly...whoops, Evil McBadsauce just waltzed in and jacked the files, and now has detailed information of every US superhero. Uh...our bad?

White Haven wrote:Call me crazy, but I'd think that the ineffectual nature of government security against superpowered villains would make registration a quite blatantly bad idea. Even if nothing bad comes from it directly...whoops, Evil McBadsauce just waltzed in and jacked the files, and now has detailed information of every US superhero. Uh...our bad?

Yes, well, people are stupid and in Civil War the registration act was the result of populist fury, spear-headed by grieving mother Cindy Shee... I mean Miriam Sharpe, directed without thought to consequence and being enforced by a SHIELD being corrupted under the command of a political hack that's turning them into jackbooted stormtroopers, in which the heroes are being blamed because a bunch of minor capes took on a supervillain they didn't know had been juiced up artificially and who promptly blew up a school and a neighborhood - and the capes - killing over 600 kids. I seriously wonder how many of the frothing lunatics who brutally beat Johnny Storm got what they deserved by having their asses tossed into prison?

If I were a cape in the US I'd be heading to Canada or Cable's little island in the Pacific.

And IGN's little comedy/serious article about non-Marvel characters and their likely views on the Civil War has me possessing a hankering to having Superman come over to Marvelverse, kick the shit out of the pro-reg heroes (Especially that self-righteous egghead Reed Richards), and then promptly deliver a Kryptonian-powered helping of whupass on SHIELD while Batman mindfucks Maria Hill and her lackies (because he's the Goddamned Batman!).

I haven't read much about Reed Richards' opinion on the matter, only that he's in favour of it. What's the story?

Batman wrote: Let's take Clark. How are Darkseid, Doomsday, or Lex Luthor his fault? Bizarro? Brainiac?

Actually, based upon my understanding of the events in DC, Luthor's main reason for villainy IS because of a hatred of clark kents superman persona. As for Bizarro, the current DC continuity states that the original was a clone of superman by lex luthor, so that one is his fault. The second was created by Mister Mxyzptlk, so that ones not his fault. As for Brainiac, in some incarnations of the story, brainiac was the one which destroyed krypton, thereby giving rise to Superman instead of the reverse, however he then came looking for the last son of krypton, thus meaning that superman made braniac earths problem. As for Doomsday, Doomsday didn't arrive on earth due to superman, but did subsequently return because of the fact that doomsday was created and then tortured by a kryptonian and Doomsday sensed the kryptonian dna within kal-el. As for darkseid, well ya get that one. He's just evil. however, batman, I do agree that it is the exception as of late rather than the rule, you just picked some bad examples.

Now, back to the original question. No ones taken the green lantern. Being an intergalactic cop in essence, i'm going with keeping the peace and maintaining order.

Superman, heres the big one. In DC's Kingdom Come (which is admittedly non-cannon but retains the characters sense of self and personas) superman at one point speaks about giving a choice to captain marvel: Save the superpowered people, or the more human like heroes? He then goes on to say that Captain Marvel made the only choice that matters: Life. So thats right were I'm puttin old Supes.

I'm also stickin Spidey in the same boat. In Civil War, he recently publically unmasked himself in response to the events. I believe he is a supporter of the registration act as a means of death prevention. Peter parker has lost many people in his life due to his dual identity.

Wonder womans tenants from the amazons are to spread peace. This puts her squarely on the Agent of change list for me.

Exileman wrote:

Batman wrote: Let's take Clark. How are Darkseid, Doomsday, or Lex Luthor his fault? Bizarro? Brainiac?

Actually, based upon my understanding of the events in DC, Luthor's main reason for villainy IS because of a hatred of clark kents superman persona. As for Bizarro, the current DC continuity states that the original was a clone of superman by lex luthor, so that one is his fault.

Interesting definition of 'fault' you're working with.

, however he then came looking for the last son of krypton, thus meaning that superman made braniac earths problem. As for Doomsday, Doomsday didn't arrive on earth due to superman, but did subsequently return because of the fact that doomsday was created and then tortured by a kryptonian and Doomsday sensed the kryptonian dna within kal-el.

Again, interesting definition of 'fault' you're working with. Why don't you show me what Clark has actually done TO Luthor other than being a better man than that jealous egomaniac could ever hope to be, and what CLARK has done to DD as opposed to some random Kryptonian.
The Joker at least has a semi-understandable reason for his grudge against me.
Clark has done NOTHING to even remotely justify Lex or DDs enmity.

Fault probably was the wrong word in that instance. Besides, on the whole I agreed with your assessmant of the fact that the "i created you, you created me" plot is rare in today's genre.

Exileman wrote:Fault probably was the wrong word in that instance. Besides, on the whole I agreed with your assessmant of the fact that the "i created you, you created me" plot is rare in today's genre.

And I DID notice that. However, you saying Clark caused Lex becoming a villain/creating Bizarro or DD becoming hostile is like saying black people caused the KKK.

the marvel civil war story would be an itresting view into our society.