LibriumArcana.Games

So in the vein of SciFi's "Librium Universe" thread..let's work on creating a Fantasy World.


So, we've the length and breadth of creativity here, to create our own, suitable planet with monsters and magic and ancient civilizations and what not. What races do we have, how is magic handled, etc etc?

I'd love, personally, to stay away from Tolkienish conventions for this world - no Elves as a dying race, etc.

My idea, as base outline as it is, calls for a old world (Cat's convinced me of this at the very least) with a (zorry for the buzzword) Mid-High Fantasy setting.

About Earth-sized planet, four large main continents, many smaller island chains and smaller subcontinental landmasses around so much diverse scenery. At least three main civilizations/kingdoms at current in power, with a bunch of other smaller kingdom's/tribes/etc all around.

Magic - As Cynical pointed out, my ideas of how magic are handled is ass backward, tainted by a few bad RPG's in the past, and me being to conservative. So for now, I will stick my nose out of that part (I'm willing to discuss though on it). My only idea is magic should be powerful, versitile, but not common.....I'd want it to make the common folk of the world be wowed by a fireball spell.

Religion - I'm open for discussion on this one. I'm honestly at a loss for how to settle this correctly.

Creatures/Races - As much as I'd love to stray from Tolkien works, some of the races are a good idea. Some of my ideas (open to suggestions) below.

*Elves: have them as a contemporary power, older than the humans, but not the dying ancient race Tolkien loved to depict them as.

*Dwarves: If you got Elves, you need dwarves. Great builders, jewel crafters, fine warriors...other ideas?

*Humans: One of the main races on the planet, one of the top three civilizations (along with the Elves). While the humans have one of the Big Three, there's also smaller tribes, cities, etc outside of the big kingdom's control.

*Orcs: Brutal, tribal bastards. War-like, constantly raid towns and outposts of the other civilizations for food, weapons and slaves. Despite being tribal and warriors, they've developed a sense of civilization, with their own cities. Orcs are a intellegent race, not just dumb brute warriors.

*Dragons: Dragons, reminents of the old world, ancient wyrms who breath fire, ice, acid and lighting on their foes. Once plentiful, now most of them are found on one of the four main continents, with few of them straying off into the world at large.




so yeah, like I said, i've a few ideas, but nothing that's concrete yet, so lets have more. Let's flesh this out and make it a vibrant, breathing thing we can be proud of.

This feels really generic. What is different/interesting about this world?

Here's a question.

*Elves: have them as a contemporary power, older than the humans, but not the dying ancient race Tolkien loved to depict them as.

*Dwarves: If you got Elves, you need dwarves. Great builders, jewel crafters, fine warriors...other ideas?

*Orcs: Brutal, tribal bastards. War-like, constantly raid towns and outposts of the other civilizations for food, weapons and slaves. Despite being tribal and warriors, they've developed a sense of civilization, with their own cities. Orcs are a intellegent race, not just dumb brute warriors.

Why?

No listen to me for a minute here, why do we need orcs, elves and dwarves? I love em as much as the next fantasy fan but they're not necessary and to be honest if you use them you end up having to compete with Tolkien either be trying to be just like him or by trying to prove how different you are from him. That's not a knock on Tolkien or fantasy that does use the three above, it is possible to write Tolkien like fantasy that is fun to read or turn everything on its head. The question is, do we want to?

Probably not, I that's why the ideas are just that, ideas. This is all base outline stuff...nothing set in stone, hell, the races I came up with were just off the top of my head. Admittedly, I've been busy this morning, so I haven't been able to put the thought towards the ideas to flesh it out as nessacry.


As for the Races? My mind instantly fell back on what was well known to it, since this was a outline, done in a hurry.


As for the world sounding generic....part of the reason why I've brought up the idea in the thread - to discuss, and try to make it less generic.

One of the ideas I had, was that this setting could have been started as a Preserve, of sorts, by some insanely powerful being. Some of the races are indigenous , others were brought here by said powerful being to keep them alive despite some cataclysm on their world - or just out of said insanely powerful being's curiosity.

A defining feature of many good fantasy universes is how ingrained it is to the history of our world. The more accessible it is to the reader, the more it resonates with what could have been, the easier it is to insert the reader into the world. Most of my favorite fantasy has this distinction.

Look at an ancient culture, look at its mythology, and go from the assumption of "what if this was real?" and then look at all of its neighbors. Just as in sci-fi, we look at technology and culture and see where it goes, in fantasy we look at what was and what could have been.

Now, from there, we need to throw in an overall theme. Is this depressing, is it hopeful, is it magical, and so forth.

Okay then what we need to do is establish what we want to do here. I'll use the half compete Librium Universe as an example here. Hotfoot, Comrade tortoise, Marcoa, Nitram, Mayabird and myself managed to hash out some general themes and feels.

So let's ask some questions

Tone: Is this a dark gritty world like Warhammer Fantasy? A more grey world like Conan's? A heroic fantasy of shiney paladins?

Scope: How big are the interactions here? Is there world trade? Or are the continents isolated from each other?

History: How much of it is there? Are there fallen civilizations? Vanished races? Empires that have stood the test of time and sneered?

Figuring this stuff out will help us hash out where to go to next.

We need to know what the desired end product is. From that we can craft a beginning.

I will be honest, I have all manner of fantasy races in my head (mostly reptiloids, they are under-represented in fantasy... minorities if you will), and have a magic system in the works in my head that fits nicely. However, due to some things CC pointed out, I will have to hammer out details... The basic premise though is that magic works as an expression of the will, in human spellcasters it is limited by power-draw and imagination, while magical beasts have a set of static abilities the power-draw of which they are capable of absorbing as part and parcel of the ability.

On Dragons: These are dragons. They should not be in decline, or be isolated on one continent. These are creatures of immense power that should be few in number and spread out not because of decline, but because the environment could never support them otherwise. They should follow their own century-spanning agendas, have agents that meddle in the affairs of lesser races, etc. They should not be sleepy horde-builders, but should be involved in the world, but inscrutable, and very very very dangerous when pissed off.

If they are less powerful, it follows that they should not be in competition with humanoids, but rather in dynamic partnership with them.

You're getting way ahead of yourself Tortoise.

Cynical Cat wrote:You're getting way ahead of yourself Tortoise.

I did it by design... seriously I am a mechanics guy, you guys figure out a setting and a history, the feel of the universe, if you will. I like to figure out how such universes work... magic... dragon population structure...

What I'd like to see out of this?

A world that is complex, but allows to draw in the reader. A world where we can set stories in, be they short or feature length stories, or a STGOD of sorts. Where the world is not black and white, but a tapestry of greys, where the lines aren't so clear cut.

I'll reply to some of Frigid's questions below, but we need other ideas than just mines.

Tone: Is this a dark gritty world like Warhammer Fantasy? A more grey world like Conan's? A heroic fantasy of shiney paladins?

A world of greys, with room for the heroic fantasy when it calls for. I'd hate to venture off into the field of "everyone's fucked in one way shape or form" of the Warhammer-verse.

Scope: How big are the interactions here? Is there world trade? Or are the continents isolated from each other?

Depending on the era of the story, at least between the Big Three, I'd like there to be some international trade. There should be room for the small scale interactions and adventures, along with the multi-continent spanning stories.

History: How much of it is there? Are there fallen civilizations? Vanished races? Empires that have stood the test of time and sneered?

This is part of what both you and Cat asked me about, and it relates to how old the world is. A old world, will definatly have previous civilizations which rose up upon it, then crashed down. Some ancient race which may have mastered magic, and made use of it in everyday life, but their race died out thousands of years ago, leaving only the ruins behind.

Some Empires may have stood the test of time in some areas of the world. There should be a history between the races, each should have their own stories. How far back it goes? That something we need to discuss on it's own, and figure out how old this world is, what was it like in the beginning, how did it come about, etc.

Depending on the era of the story, at least between the Big Three, I'd like there to be some international trade. There should be room for the small scale interactions and adventures, along with the multi-continent spanning stories.

There's always gonna be a "main" era. So let's stick to that main era, year fuck I don't know... Call it year 1000. In year 1000 can the people on continent A trade regularly with the people on continent B, across ocean C or do they even know that continent B is there?

This is part of what both you and Cat asked me about, and it relates to how old the world is. A old world, will definatly have previous civilizations which rose up upon it, then crashed down. Some ancient race which may have mastered magic, and made use of it in everyday life, but their race died out thousands of years ago, leaving only the ruins behind.

Some Empires may have stood the test of time in some areas of the world. There should be a history between the races, each should have their own stories. How far back it goes? That something we need to discuss on it's own, and figure out how old this world is, what was it like in the beginning, how did it come about, etc.

See that just spun us around, the whole point of this thread is to answer the questions. Soooo...

History: How much of it is there? Are there fallen civilizations? Vanished races? Empires that have stood the test of time and sneered?

Like I said, look into all the cultures of the world. My initial reaction is to throw in some Germanic, Nordic, Chinese, and maybe a bit of Gaelic traditions in there, but on further review, Mesoamerican and African traditions are ones not commonly pulled from to populate a fantasy mythos, which is unfortunate because there's a lot of material to mine from those.

If you're going for shades of gray, be sure to model every civilization well. Tag line nations like "The Elf Nation" or "The Lizard Nation" don't work.

How epic are we talking, also? What size of the world? How big is it compared to travel time and communication? Classic fantasy had long trips and poor communication, by and large.

I'm taking these questions, and I'll work on making answers for them and put up a post this afternoon.

Good points Frigid and Hotfoot....

I think Hotfoot and others have the right idea. After all, the "elf/dwarf/hobbit/orc" dead body has been beaten so long it's not even a corpse anymore - its a reddish-brown paste.

Take inspiration from various developing cultures around the world, with their own mythos and culture, and magnify a bit. If they end up metahuman, then they end up metahuman. If they end up being humans, then they end up humans - the point is that their roots are in Earth's own history, and are therefore both more familiar and more alien at once.

As for the more fantastic creatures (griffins, dragons, etc.) those are a grey area. You can lift the creatures wholesale from mythology books, or you can just use them as templates and make up your own, which though it's more work, I'd suggest doing.

This should be speaking to the choir here, but I'll say it anyway for posterity - since magic is in and of itself a gigantic dodge for the physics of a world, if one cannot satisfactorily explain the why's of something, ignore the temptation to pull the "lulz magic did it" reason. Not only is it intellectually lazy, it also insults the reader and pushes the reader back out of the suspension of disbelief, which is frankly worse.

Also, I'm more or less copy & pasting the approach I'm taking to one of the stories I'm working on in the background - as the rewrite will entirely be in an original universe, it requires much more work.

I should point out this, so far, is a typical medieval fantasy world. We have a post Roman Empire land with elves and orcs and wizards. We don't have steampunk stuff or magic tech or everyday magic which are only tired tropes now because they were invented to produce something other than generic medieval fantasy.

In short, I would really consider the direction of the whole project.

Has anyone considered the idea of napoleonic-type-era fantasy?

Has anyone considered the idea of napoleonic-type-era fantasy?

No thanks.

12,000 years of recorded history has passed, from the rise of the first civilization on the planet, to the Current Period. In this time, at least three World spanning and advanced (magically or technically) civilizations have exsisted, with many smaller ones appearing and disappearing as time has passed.

Ruins suggest no less than three distinct species have made the planet home in the past, though each eventually cause some apocolypse to occur which destroyed their ways of life. There may still be some small holdout of these ancient races in the corners of the planet.

There is several extinct races, all native to the planet. Not every species is a evolutionary superstar....





The planet is mostly Earth-standard in size, usable landmass is nearly the same due to a multitude of large island chains and subcontinental landmasses. Year and times are near to Earth normal, with the Years reaching 373 days, and Days maintaining a 24 hour cycle.

The Eastern Hemisphere's continents are sized much like Africa and Eurasia, with Africa sized landmass being in the northern hemisphere (Continents A and B respectively).


Empires A and B exsist on kingdom's A and B, respectively, and are the powerhouses of their continents. Other smaller kingdoms and cities exsist on said continents, as those Empire's control are not absolute. The people of both continents trade regularly with each other. Though not as numerous as on the other two continents, some ruins and ancient monuments still exsist here.


Continent D is located in the northern part of the Western hemisphere, and is about the size of the Continental United States, it has no connecting landmasses, and is unknown to most people in the World except as legend and rumor to most people, though some few have traveled there, and is known to many magic users. Continent D is a large draw for treasure seekers looking to find the lost fortunes of the ancient races.

"Continent C" is 1.25 the size of Austrailia, sitting on the Equator of the planet (about 1/3 of the continent is above the equator.) Continent C is home to the currently longest lived Empire, having exsisted for the past 1500 years known as the Ageless Empire (name open for whoever writes them up). Fairly Isolationistic, aside from occassional raids. Not Nice People. Continent C is home to the ruins of several lost/extinct civilizations, and is where they draw some of their magical abilities from.


Epicness will depend on the scope of the story, The "Ageless Empire" would be a primary antagonist for any continent-world spanning story, as they seek to expand their influence beyond their homeland. Communication time varies depending on the type of communication used. Messenger birds are quicker but less reliable than foot travel, magic is near instant but is prohibitively expensive to the common folk, and can be blocked easily. Travel time depends on the type of conveyance used, and how far it is to the destination. On average, travel to the next town takes half a day to a full day to walk on foot, at minimum on Continents A & B.


Obviously, I'm leaving the races and kingdoms open still, until we get to discussion concerning those areas. The "Ageless Empire" is also just temporary - and the final name will be up to whoever takes up being their scribe.



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This is what I had written in response to Hotfoot and Frigid's questions, and I'm pretty sure we don't need to fit this into the bog standard Medieval Generic Fantasy world setting, we could adapt it to a more nepolianic or even Victorian era setting. I'm not adverse to the idea of going something beyond bog standard generic fantasy, hell, let's do away with the elves and dwarves and all that rot and make up new races, basing them off of stuff from human mythologies.

I rather stick to swords and spears in terms of tech. Victorian and Napleonic eras are pretty much steampunk territory. I enjoy steampunk but I don't want to write it.

One idea I was flirting with I was suddenly reminded of as I read your post, DS. Have it be a fantasy-sort of world, but with clearly-defined limits. Over time, reveal more and more clues that the "previous civilization that ruled over the entire world" was a garbled retelling of the Earth of 2008, as we know it now, before (insert human-life-altering event here).

Perhaps "mages" arose because the military was doing research along the area of psionics (and how the mind can affect the environment when given the right circumstances and lots of drugs), and the test subjects managed to escape and pass their imposed "gift" as a recessive trait to their children. Given that all of them would be from one area, it would make some serious changes to the kingdoms/lands in that area.

Perhaps the people on a particular continent are a bit more resistant to disease and poison than most, but are otherwise unremarkable - until their lands are described as the "killing fields" by people who attempt to visit. Having a strong poison or toxin in the environment that the native populace has grown immune to but still seriously affects "outlanders" would make for an interestingly cloistered culture.

Perhaps all children by default are sterile, requiring a ritual tea (containing an herbal substance that can reverse the sort of imposed sterility). In a world with no many people, this would have interesting effects on any culture over time.

These are all ideas to tie the fantasy world to the world we live in today. Tying the fantasy world back to the world we find familiar is basically a psychological gimmick that if done well can yank the reader thoroughly into the story - but it can backfire too.

On the other hand, having multiple layers of "ruined civilizations" can get a bit too complicated and confusing for a reader, and for the writer trying to keep track of what happened when, and where, from what ancient civilization. I'd suggest there being no more than one, maybe two former civilizations that have ruins and secrets and such.

Perhaps "mages" arose because the military was doing research along the area of psionics (and how the mind can affect the environment when given the right circumstances and lots of drugs), and the test subjects managed to escape and pass their imposed "gift" as a recessive trait to their children. Given that all of them would be from one area, it would make some serious changes to the kingdoms/lands in that area.

I would prefer magic to be analogous to science, by which I mean it is mystical, wonderful, and scary to those not trained in it, but to those who are trained in it and have steeped themselves in it, becomes well understood, very systematized, and has a subculture that transcends other boundaries.

You tie magic into the world we live in today through the use of an institution everyone is familiar with, while not detracting from its awesomeness.

I would rather have magic be dangerous, seductive, and truly arcane. Maybe there are some solid rules, but very few people would understand them, because very few people live long enough to master it.

That, or go the Artesia route, and make magic accessible to literally everyone, but keep its effects mostly minor.

Edit: Let's remember that in fantasy/historical settings that once knowledge became widely spread, you had a renaissance, and the ushering of a more modern age.

Given my above example, magic could be both arcane and difficult, as well as internally consistent and logical. Taking both of your ideas (CT & Hotfoot), perhaps everyone from that area with the right DNA can perform minor bits of magic, effectively replacing the need for flint & steel, or minor other things. However, people with the talent for it can take it further than most, even to the point of eventually cloistering themselves off from the populace for a bit while they tinker with one particular aspect of magic (for instance...i don't know, Perception), learning more secrets of that aspect of magic, and coming back down from the mountain with new knowledge to share.

Given this progression, different regions might have their own approaches to magic, while more distant regions would simply hear fantastic tales of people setting forests ablaze, or summoning a tornado where they wish.

Hotfoot wrote:I would rather have magic be dangerous, seductive, and truly arcane. Maybe there are some solid rules, but very few people would understand them, because very few people live long enough to master it.

That, or go the Artesia route, and make magic accessible to literally everyone, but keep its effects mostly minor.

Edit: Let's remember that in fantasy/historical settings that once knowledge became widely spread, you had a renaissance, and the ushering of a more modern age.

The issue here is that the renaissance thing does not necessarily apply. Even though a tradition is systematized (if we want to go that route) you still cant do what today's scientists do and stand on the shoulders of those who come before you. If we take the route I hammer out anyway. You have to learn the discipline required to shape the universe without frying yourself from the power-draw. Power by itself is seductive, magic itself is dangerous, but it has set, predictable rules, but conversely to be useful it takes decades of training.

Using DNA handwavium is a load of BS. One gene, or even a complex of genes cant allow you to tie into some mystic energy that permeates the world. Either it has to be some sort of epiphenomenon of the mind as is the case in humans, or something that over a long time, a species evolved or was engineered (by deities... we would NOT be able to do it) to do for a small number of specific effects.