LibriumArcana.Games

This is what happens when Magi works for 9 hours serving popcorn and the damn popper keeps burning it... The fumes man, the fucking fumes!

*coughs*

Anyways...

Through various higher cosmic power shenanigans a mid level mature Jedi Knight finds himself face to face with a mid level mature Solar. The Jedi Knight has a lightsaber, a blaster pistol and his robes. The Solar has chainmail armor and his sword. They both believe the other to be the bad guy and are working for directly opposing goals.

FIGHT!

Who wins and why?

Extra Credit: Would the result change if this was a newly exalted solar? Or if this was a full on Jedi Master?

Ok, before I go into this - are you going by the rules in Star Wars: Saga books for the Jedi abilities and skills, just as you'd use the Exalted books for the Solar abilities and skills? If so, this will be rather straightforward.

I take it we're NOT talking D&D Solars then.

Batman wrote:I take it we're NOT talking D&D Solars then.

Oh, no. They'd barely be a speed bump for either an Exalted Solar or a Jedi.

EDIT: Alright, I'll put forth my view now.

If we measure the capability of a Jedi from the Star Wars Saga RPG books, and the capability of a Solar from the Exalted RPG books, and have the contest set up as in the OP...

...That Jedi would just get murdered. The Jedi might be able to block a few of the Solar's strikes, but only a few. Conversely, the Jedi would never land a shot or strike on the Solar.

If this were a newly Exalted Solar versus a Jedi, this would be a more even battle, and it might go to the Jedi due to how lightsabers work, and how the newly Exalted Solar can't do the terrifying things to their weapons the way a more seasoned one could.

If this were a seasoned Solar Exalted versus a full-on Jedi Master, then this would be a very impressive fight, but I think it would still go to the Solar for the same reasons as I listed above - the Jedi would never be able to hit the Solar, and the Jedi could only prevent a few of the Solar's strikes from scoring.

Windswept wrote:

Batman wrote:I take it we're NOT talking D&D Solars then.

Oh, no. They'd barely be a speed bump for either an Exalted Solar or a Jedi.

Bullshit. 7th level spells can reduce anyone to ash. Solars have 9th level access. D&D Solars would crisp most Jedi almost instantly.

Anyway, consulting game mechanics for this debate is stupid. They aren't primary source material for Jedi anyway. I know little about Exalted other than its a White Wolf game. There should be plenty of game background material on Exalted Solars for a comparison against Jedi.

Cynical Cat wrote:Bullshit. 7th level spells can reduce anyone to ash. Solars have 9th level access. D&D Solars would crisp most Jedi almost instantly.

To the point though that most Jedi can Negate Energy as a reaction a couple times per encounter, plus have scary saves, wouldn't that be a more even match, despite the 9th level spells (ignoring Wish for the moment)?

Negate Energy is nice for blaster bolts. Its no where in the league of 5th level flame strikes or 7th level death spells like Destruction. And you're using game mechanics, again. The RPG is a secondary source on Jedi powers. Movies are primary. You can kill Jedi just fine with blasters. See the arena scene of Episode II and the Jedi dying all over the place in Episode III. The mighty Mace Windu, one of the greatest living Jedi masters, discards his outer layers when grazed by Fett's flame thrower and that's nothing compared to the giant column of holy flame that is flame strike. Yoda and Windu top out at handling Force Lightning, which isn't unimpressive, but isn't Flame Strike, isn't Destruction, and definitely isn't Miracle.

And Windu and Yoda aren't typical Jedi.

Perfect Defenses exist in the fluff history; when an Exalted with one doesn't want hit, I do not care what you throw at him. He avoids it, parries it, or just powers through on sheer refusal to conceive he's wounded. They also have perfect attacks, only trumpable by perfect defenses.(These were major components of how they defeated the Primordials, continent-sized entities with hundreds or thousands of souls making them up.)

Throw in even the 'weak, beginner' Sidereal Martial Art Prismatic Array Of Creation, and nineth level spells can't save you. Nor can will of the Force.

Cynical Cat wrote:And you're using game mechanics, again.

Granted - it seemed the best basis of comparison.

Cynical Cat wrote:The RPG is a secondary source on Jedi powers. Movies are primary. You can kill Jedi just fine with blasters. See the arena scene of Episode II and the Jedi dying all over the place in Episode III. The mighty Mace Windu, one of the greatest living Jedi masters, discards his outer layers when grazed by Fett's flame thrower and that's nothing compared to the giant column of holy flame that is flame strike. Yoda and Windu top out at handling Force Lightning, which isn't unimpressive, but isn't Flame Strike, isn't Destruction, and definitely isn't Miracle.

And Windu and Yoda aren't typical Jedi.

With that, I see your point, and agree with you - the SW:S RPG was designed as an approximation of the movies, so you are right in that the movies & books they were based on can and should take precedence over the RPG minutiae.

Moreover, your points about Flame Strike versus Force Lightning (for instance) are what drove the point home, with comparisons from direct evidence to the movies.

Ok, so I formally concede the point that a D&D Solar would have a rough time with a Jedi as anything other than target practice.

So then, what about a D&D Solar versus a seasoned Solar Exalt? I think that with the above info, that should be a much more interesting fight.

Since I know nothing about Exalted Solars, I have no idea of how they'll stack up. The spell/holy power arsenal, the slaying arrows with uber bow, and vorpal blade of doom are the Solars primary means of delivering a beatdown. They're almost immune to magic, most weapons, and having bitching self healing abilities so an Exalted Solar needs to be able to dish it out. Since Exalted tends to be a fairly powerful fantasy universe, its conceivable that they could get the job done.

Cynical Cat wrote:Since I know nothing about Exalted Solars, I have no idea of how they'll stack up. The spell/holy power arsenal, the slaying arrows with uber bow, and vorpal blade of doom are the Solars primary means of delivering a beatdown. They're almost immune to magic, most weapons, and having bitching self healing abilities so an Exalted Solar needs to be able to dish it out. Since Exalted tends to be a fairly powerful fantasy universe, its conceivable that they could get the job done.

I'm going to have to say the Exalted wins; the only question is how far along 'seasoned' is supposed to be. These are guys who can live for five thousand years if not killed by violence, and pick up more and more beatdown powers as they go. Even a sub-century one can possibly win; perfect defenses are quite cheap if evading only one weapon at a time, and as a being of spirit and divinity, the Solar can literally draw power from each blow that lands on the Solar angelic. This skips over any kind of gear a Solar would have; one Warstrider and it's over easily.

AMusing factoid for the OP: Exalted includes 'Beamklaives', AKA lightsabers.

Well Nitram knows both D&D and Exalted so unless someone has something else to add that pretty much seals it right there.

Cynical Cat wrote:Well Nitram knows both D&D and Exalted so unless someone has something else to add that pretty much seals it right there.

Just a supporting point - Solars get access to Perfect Defenses, and Perfect Offenses.

Perfect Defenses mean basically "Fuck you, I don't care if you threw an entire solar system at me, it won't hit me", and Perfect Offenses mean "No dodging or parrying for you - you will get hit and you will like it!"

Those Perfect Defenses are available pretty early on for a Solar too; a more martial Solar well under a century would be likely to have at least one type.

Windswept wrote:

Cynical Cat wrote:Well Nitram knows both D&D and Exalted so unless someone has something else to add that pretty much seals it right there.

Just a supporting point - Solars get access to Perfect Defenses, and Perfect Offenses.

Perfect Defenses mean basically "Fuck you, I don't care if you threw an entire solar system at me, it won't hit me", and Perfect Offenses mean "No dodging or parrying for you - you will get hit and you will like it!"

Those Perfect Defenses are available pretty early on for a Solar too; a more martial Solar well under a century would be likely to have at least one type.

Well thats no limits bullshit, but D&D has that too (Outsider immunities like the Solar has *cough cough*). Its also game mechanicky (higher level attack numbers in D&D are clearly supernatural they're so ridiculous and that's before blatantly magical bonuses are added in). Being almost unhittable and almost never missing is good enough without comparing irresistible forces and unmoveable objects that run on different game mechanics.

Cynical Cat wrote:Well thats no limits bullshit, but D&D has that too (Outsider immunities like the Solar has *cough cough*). Its also game mechanicky (higher level attack numbers in D&D are clearly supernatural they're so ridiculous and that's before blatantly magical bonuses are added in). Being almost unhittable and almost never missing is good enough without comparing irresistible forces and unmoveable objects that run on different game mechanics.

To be fair, the Solar has to activate the defense with Essence and usually Willpower, so they can't do that indefinitely. Still, the Perfect Defense will block or prevent damage from any non-Perfect source.

Windswept wrote:

Cynical Cat wrote:Well thats no limits bullshit, but D&D has that too (Outsider immunities like the Solar has *cough cough*). Its also game mechanicky (higher level attack numbers in D&D are clearly supernatural they're so ridiculous and that's before blatantly magical bonuses are added in). Being almost unhittable and almost never missing is good enough without comparing irresistible forces and unmoveable objects that run on different game mechanics.

To be fair, the Solar has to activate the defense with Essence and usually Willpower, so they can't do that indefinitely. Still, the Perfect Defense will block or prevent damage from any non-Perfect source.

Yeah, which is game mechanically defined no limits bullshit. You haven't even defined what "Perfect" is. A Solar is the right hand of a god. Why don't you stop trying to apply terms from one game universe to a critter from another and go with "is really hard to hit and almost never misses."

Nitram would be the first to flame someone for pulling no limits wank stuff from their favorite game/anime/series of crappy fantasy novels. If you have to use game mechanics to describe the ability, you're doing it wrong.

I'm not saying the D&D Solar would win. Nitram is pretty sure it won't and that's good enough for me. He simply defined the Exalted critter as having superior gear, fire power, and having an excellent defence against a single attacker. Throwing around no limits Exalted game mechanics without context as explanations is not the way to do it.

Perfects do exist and I briefly commented on them, as they do exist in the canon. However, to believe they are no-limits is quite wrong; there are specific things which can bypass perfects(And anyone starting the whining fit of 'That's not what was said HEREEEEEEE', screw you.), and so forth. They have limits, and a specific weakness(A wise Jedi would naturally try his damndest to use this to his advantage; fight a Compassion-flawed Solar without anyone near, etc) which completely removes their use(A proper 'mid level' Solar will have several, attuned to multiple Virtues, making it increasingly harder for the Jedi, but they'd also not have just chainmail and a sword. Articulated Orichalcum Plate and the blade known as Kind Mercy, maybe).

This is where we get to the point of someone goes off 'This is how I play it' and 'What the fluff accomodates'.

There's also the whole horrifying bit where blows that would kill a human only mildly wound a Solar...

SirNitram wrote:Perfects do exist and I briefly commented on them, as they do exist in the canon. However, to believe they are no-limits is quite wrong; there are specific things which can bypass perfects(And anyone starting the whining fit of 'That's not what was said HEREEEEEEE', screw you.), and so forth. They have limits, and a specific weakness(A wise Jedi would naturally try his damndest to use this to his advantage; fight a Compassion-flawed Solar without anyone near, etc) which completely removes their use(A proper 'mid level' Solar will have several, attuned to multiple Virtues, making it increasingly harder for the Jedi, but they'd also not have just chainmail and a sword. Articulated Orichalcum Plate and the blade known as Kind Mercy, maybe).

This is where we get to the point of someone goes off 'This is how I play it' and 'What the fluff accomodates'.

There's also the whole horrifying bit where blows that would kill a human only mildly wound a Solar...

UH Nitram we've moved over to D&D Solar versus Exalted Solar, not Jedi.

Cynical Cat wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Perfects do exist and I briefly commented on them, as they do exist in the canon. However, to believe they are no-limits is quite wrong; there are specific things which can bypass perfects(And anyone starting the whining fit of 'That's not what was said HEREEEEEEE', screw you.), and so forth. They have limits, and a specific weakness(A wise Jedi would naturally try his damndest to use this to his advantage; fight a Compassion-flawed Solar without anyone near, etc) which completely removes their use(A proper 'mid level' Solar will have several, attuned to multiple Virtues, making it increasingly harder for the Jedi, but they'd also not have just chainmail and a sword. Articulated Orichalcum Plate and the blade known as Kind Mercy, maybe).

This is where we get to the point of someone goes off 'This is how I play it' and 'What the fluff accomodates'.

There's also the whole horrifying bit where blows that would kill a human only mildly wound a Solar...

UH Nitram we've moved over to D&D Solar versus Exalted Solar, not Jedi.

If banishment spells are considered universal, Adamant Banishment will throw it back so hard there's a divot. Even in a fight, a mid-lifetime Solar will make it. Not necessarily without wounds, but Exalted were made to fight and kill things greater than gods(ANd Exalted deities are no slouches on sheer power!).

So tough fight, but smart money on a mid power Exalted Solar and a more powerful Exalted doing even better? Sure.

Cynical Cat wrote:So tough fight, but smart money on a mid power Exalted Solar and a more powerful Exalted doing even better? Sure.

And this assumes a 'mid power Exalted Solar' to mean 50-100 years old. If we mean 2,500 years old, middle of their age(And they never leave their prime), stain on rocks. Exalted are meant to rumble with serious badasses.

I deleted my post because it was really damn stupid in retrospect. Live and learn.