Frigid watched The Dark Knight Rises.

[frigidmagi]

I went to a 11:30am showing.



Please be aware that spoilers follow:




This is very clearly the last Nolan Batman movie, as he makes brutally clear within the film itself. While one could do further films within the universe I think, it would be a mistake to call them Batman movies. In fact after seeing these movies it may be a mistake to think of these movies as being about Batman. You see, they're about someone else entirely.

Up til now most of the movies have been about Batman or just as commonly his villains with Batman as the opposing force. While in each of those movies we're rooting for the masked crusader, it's the villain's story. They're the ones struggling to achieve goals, the ones with hopes and desires and moving to make it happen. Batman in those stories becomes a force of status quo, moving in with those hopes and desires and the goals they set become dangerous to others and society as a whole. The Nolanverse isn't about that. In movies about Batman, it's about Batman finding the resolve to start, continue or adjust his quest for justice, he either puts on the mask, finds the ability to keep it on or changes to allow others to fight with him. The Nolanverse isn't about that either.

Nolan has made the first set of movies that are about Bruce Wayne and his journey from start to finish. In all 3 movies we have been taken into the mind of Bruce and the sacrifices he makes to become and stay batman. How he cannot stay batman and keep the same ties that rest of us do. How everything that is Bruce Wayne is put on the altar so that The Batman can exist and do his work. And how for Bruce Wayne to live, he'll have to put down the mask. This is Nolan's position and the story he has told through these 3 movies. One can disagree with it, but I feel one cannot ignore it or fail to consider the commitment and artistry with which Nolan has told his story.

This movie is about Bruce's final journey with Batman and moving on. Nolan spends time in this movie making sure we learn completely and totally the price Bruce has paid, from becoming a recluse with little to no social contact out of grief for the loses suffered in The Dark Knight, to the fact that his knees, back and more are worn the fuck out and falling apart. To becoming alienated and distant from Alfred of all people. This is a result of the universe Nolan's Batman inhabits. In the mainstream comic line, Batman has relationships and human connections, with the various Batgirls (of which 2 are sorely missed DC) and Robins, as well as the various other heroes. If nothing else the fact that Superman insist on Bats being social from time to time has helped humanized The Batman. In this universe no such thing exist. The Dark Knight made it clear that The Batman considers his quest a lone one that no one else may share and it has cost him. Without those ties, Bruce has lost much of his humanity and given that he has given up the mask between the movies, he even lost the quest he gave up so much for. He is at the start of this movie literally barren, practically a shell. It takes a combination of Miranda Tate, Bane and Selena Kyle to wake him back up (we'll come back to this in a bit).

As for Bane, while in the comics is not as heavily tied to the League of Shadows (or to the Demonhead), his story and character remain more or less intact (although there is no venom here, a pity). A man born in hell, who seeks to unleash it on the world complete with the false hope he felt everyday. He might claim other goals, but in the end that impels his loyalties, even if he doesn't realize it. He cloaks himself in revolutionary rhetoric, claiming to be bringing the liberation of Gotham, I honestly doubt to many bought into that considered he recruited his police force from a prison for violent offenders. As well as starting his liberation with a 911 style terrorist attack that would have by necessity killed hundreds or more.

The scenes that follow would fit in quiet well as modern retelling of the French Revolution (complete with Jacobin excesses) as well as the lawlessness that follows, instead of the communist rebellions (not to say that there wasn't terror in those but it was of a different sort. While I am sure much political hay will be made of this storyline, I have to honestly say for me the only political statement I found was the one I brought with me. Selena Kyle's speech to Bruce Wayne is honest and heart felt, is more from the bitterness of someone who just wants out to start over then some would be socialist rebel. Bain speeches are a cover for a nihilistic mad man who wants to kill millions and has chosen a road that will let him twist the knife while he does it. If anything, this movie makes the statement that most extreme politics are in the end self serving and self destructive (in a purely political context, we cannot consider The Batman any less an extremist then Bain, after all Nolan took 3 movies to prove that point to us). Miranda Tate's speeches are all about tactical goals (watch the movie). And so it goes. Additionally all of these speeches are ripped away so that true goals and motives behind them can be seen. No lie last forever in this movie.

Going back to Selena Kyle, we see very clearly that all she wants is a do over. She started from a bad place, made bad move after bad move and cannot get away from them. Nor will anyone allow her to forget them. It's that desperate desire and the bitterness of having it denied that drives her. She's the girl who just wants to go away and cannot understand why everyone keeps pulling her back in. It's interesting to me that as long as that desire is frustrated she seems utterly unable of anything but self interest but once it is granted...

Where has The Dark Knight and Batman Begins could frankly exist separately, The Dark Knight Rises could not. Plot points and ties from the last two movies hold up this movie and drive it. Like the Avengers this movie is all about pay off. From the Pact between Gordon and The Batman that gave rise to the lie that allowed them to clean up Gotham, at the cost of both their humanity. Gordon loses his family and more as well here, becoming utterly committed to his job (given that his job isn't solitarily he however doesn't lose all of it and is still able to interact with his fellow human beings). To the League of Shadows and their goal of utterly tearing down Gotham and the life of the Demonhead himself. In this movie, Bruce is literally haunted by the ghosts of his mentor and his past mistakes. How he exorcises these ghosts and makes peace with them is how he finds his way back both literally and figuratively is perhaps the whole turning point of the movie.

Each of the movies had themes running through them and in this one, it's truth. By the end of the movie every lie is laid bare. All the lies told to buy peace and good will in the last movie are stripped away. No matter what that lie was, who told it or why. If this movie has one moral to impart, it is this, all lies eventually come crashing down. All falsehoods decay. Sooner or later the truth emerges, even if no one cares to admit it.

This movie is the end of The Batman, there may be a Batman after this but never The Batman. That said, this movie is also the rebirth of Bruce Wayne. Frankly I have to give Nolan respect for being daring enough to tell the whole story of Bruce Wayne from start to finish. This is a story that the comic industry has flirted with telling from time to time, a story that was perhaps most famously told in Batman Beyond. But Nolan was willing to do it without reservation.

Which leads me to what was for me frankly the weakest part of the movie. That being the relationship between Officer John Blake and Batman. This isn't a problem with the actor or even the idea of Batman getting buddy, buddy with a cop. It's the fact that the mentor/protege relationship doesn't ring true, there simply isn't time for it. There are touching moments where they are brought close by shared experiences and goals, there a perhaps 2 or 3 moments of lessons taught but frankly Nolan wants me to believe that Blake (legal name Robin) is capable of putting on the cowl without showing me that he has the skills. And after ensuring that he won't have the resources. While Blake has the spirit and the drive, that's frankly not enough. Why is okay for Blake and not the men in the 2nd movie? Because he and Bruce are on a name basis? What, only people with dead parents can be Batman? Bruce had to train with bloody ninjas before he had the physical capability to be Batman. Blake is in great shape but he's not up to fighting 6 men at once. He barely took on two when he had a gun! In short this part falls flat for me.






Despite that, I still give Dark Knight Rises an A. It is a well done story willing to embrace the it's own logic and themes and follow through. It is a good and well done ending to Nolan's Batman and I encourage everyone to go see it.

[Stofsk]

Which leads me to what was for me frankly the weakest part of the movie. That being the relationship between Officer John Blake and Batman. This isn't a problem with the actor or even the idea of Batman getting buddy, buddy with a cop. It's the fact that the mentor/protege relationship doesn't ring true, there simply isn't time for it. There are touching moments where they are brought close by shared experiences and goals, there a perhaps 2 or 3 moments of lessons taught but frankly Nolan wants me to believe that Blake (legal name Robin) is capable of putting on the cowl without showing me that he has the skills. And after ensuring that he won't have the resources. While Blake has the spirit and the drive, that's frankly not enough. Why is okay for Blake and not the men in the 2nd movie? Because he and Bruce are on a name basis? What, only people with dead parents can be Batman? Bruce had to train with bloody ninjas before he had the physical capability to be Batman. Blake is in great shape but he's not up to fighting 6 men at once. He barely took on two when he had a gun! In short this part falls flat for me.

I don't think that's the weakest part of the story. I actually found it one of the strongest parts to be honest, there are plenty of other spots in the movie that is more dangerous to willing suspension of disbelief (like the hollywood-never-gets-tired-of-it cliche of the nuclear reactor that gets turned into a ticking time bomb, or how Bruce Wayne gets spine surgery done in a prison SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD, and it consisted almost entirely of a punch to the offending vertebrae ).

There's a line in Batman Begins where Ras al'ghoul was telling Bruce Wayne that 'training is nothing, the will is everything'. And I think that's what they were showing with Blake/Robin. It's not so much that he has the training to take on six men, it's that he has the will to succeed Batman and carry on his legacy. Batman, for all his training, got schooled by Bain and had his back broken to boot. It was only after he was brought down so low that he picked himself up that Batman could rise - again, it's the will to succeed over simple or mere training. Training which he could get from anyone, but the will has to be there first.

As for why is it ok for Blake and not for the imposters in TDK, it might be because those guys were fucking amateurs and they were clearly out of their element. Those guys were also criminals, even in Batman's eyes. Yeah he's a vigilante, but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to be solid with other vigilantes, especially ones that use guns (that's a big no-no with bats AFAIK). Blake demonstrated that he's keen To Do The Right Thing, since he introduced himself as a cop. 'He barely took on two when he had a gun'? Yeah, but he took them down dude. The first guy was taken out when he tried to rush him. Blake left himself open by putting himself between the two, but I suspect that was just a rookie mistake - he didn't know the first guy was hostile, he was focused on the guy he recognised. Hell, he fired a gun backwards and used the angle of the ricochet to take out a guy he was wrestling with. I can't look at that in any other way than be impressed. Anyway, I really do hope Nolan does a Nightwing movie.

[frigidmagi]

I don't think that's the weakest part of the story. I actually found it one of the strongest parts to be honest, there are plenty of other spots in the movie that is more dangerous to willing suspension of disbelief (like the hollywood-never-gets-tired-of-it cliche of the nuclear reactor that gets turned into a ticking time bomb, or how Bruce Wayne gets spine surgery done in a prison SOMEWHERE IN THE WORLD, and it consisted almost entirely of a punch to the offending vertebrae ).

Eh, I chalked it up to comic book magic and moved on. It fit in with the rest of the universe well enough for me. It may be my own training and experiences but frankly No, I gotta disagree Blake makes no damn sense. Well, no damn sense on his own. I frankly wouldn't expect someone like that to last very long without a buddy. Bruce could and did because he was a fucking ninja. If Blake's gonna be gun ho hand to hand... He's dog meat in the first 6 months. And if we're gonna complain about the nuke, how about that microwave weapon, or the weaponized fear gas, or Joker's planning abilities?

There's a line in Batman Begins where Ras al'ghoul was telling Bruce Wayne that 'training is nothing, the will is everything'. And I think that's what they were showing with Blake/Robin. It's not so much that he has the training to take on six men, it's that he has the will to succeed Batman and carry on his legacy. Batman, for all his training, got schooled by Bain and had his back broken to boot. It was only after he was brought down so low that he picked himself up that Batman could rise - again, it's the will to succeed over simple or mere training. Training which he could get from anyone, but the will has to be there first.

Yeah... About that... Look the will is damn important, without the will to use it, training, equipment, etc are useless. But all the will in the world won't save your ass if you don't have the skill. Skill without will is worthless but will without skill is an asskicking waiting to happen. Frankly that was Hollywood talking out of it's ass. I could buy Blake as a sidekick, or as a Terry stand in, but on his own

As for why is it ok for Blake and not for the imposters in TDK, it might be because those guys were fucking amateurs and they were clearly out of their element. Those guys were also criminals, even in Batman's eyes. Yeah he's a vigilante, but that doesn't mean he's automatically going to be solid with other vigilantes, especially ones that use guns (that's a big no-no with bats AFAIK). Blake demonstrated that he's keen To Do The Right Thing, since he introduced himself as a cop. 'He barely took on two when he had a gun'? Yeah, but he took them down dude. The first guy was taken out when he tried to rush him. Blake left himself open by putting himself between the two, but I suspect that was just a rookie mistake - he didn't know the first guy was hostile, he was focused on the guy he recognised. Hell, he fired a gun backwards and used the angle of the ricochet to take out a guy he was wrestling with. I can't look at that in any other way than be impressed. Anyway, I really do hope Nolan does a Nightwing movie.

And Blake was a cold stone pro huh? Look speaking as someone whose fired various firearms in anger and what not? That was pure dumb luck. From what I saw, the gun just kinda went off in his hand when he was wrestling and he was lucky that it hit the other dude instead of him. The fact that he went in alone without telling anyone where he was, stood between two unknowns and so on does him no credit. As for keen to do the right thing, I agree, but so were the guys in hockey pads. Blake's got a lot of guts, but other then being a rookie cop (who makes some rather elementary mistakes, way to not clear the corners and let yourself be out maneuvered man) I'm not seeing anything that makes him more of a pro then the Bat Groupies. That he got lucky doesn't speak to his qualifications.

[Stofsk]

Eh, I chalked it up to comic book magic and moved on. It fit in with the rest of the universe well enough for me. It may be my own training and experiences but frankly No, I gotta disagree Blake makes no damn sense. Well, no damn sense on his own. I frankly wouldn't expect someone like that to last very long without a buddy. Bruce could and did because he was a fucking ninja. If Blake's gonna be gun ho hand to hand... He's dog meat in the first 6 months. And if we're gonna complain about the nuke, how about that microwave weapon, or the weaponized fear gas, or Joker's planning abilities?

Uh those are all legitimate complaints about the previous two films dude.

Yeah... About that... Look the will is damn important, without the will to use it, training, equipment, etc are useless. But all the will in the world won't save your ass if you don't have the skill. Skill without will is worthless but will without skill is an asskicking waiting to happen. Frankly that was Hollywood talking out of it's ass. I could buy Blake as a sidekick, or as a Terry stand in, but on his own

It's an important theme is what I mean. Of course skill and training is important, so is brute strength. Bale looks like he has quite a few kilos of more muscle on him the JGL. But I'm talking about the theme of the story. JGL could easily get more training after all, so from that perspective it's not unbelieveable IMO for him to carry on the torch.

Having said that though, the broader point you're making that they should have put Blake and Wayne together more, I also agree with it. I think Nolan was trying to set the Blake=Robin thing up as a twist reveal for the ending, more than anything else, so that's why they didn't team up earlier and have the story be more focused on Blake becoming Robin. Honestly, I prefer it this way. It seems a more organic method for Blake taking up the mantle.

And Blake was a cold stone pro huh? Look speaking as someone whose fired various firearms in anger and what not? That was pure dumb luck. From what I saw, the gun just kinda went off in his hand when he was wrestling and he was lucky that it hit the other dude instead of him. The fact that he went in alone without telling anyone where he was, stood between two unknowns and so on does him no credit.

I agree with most of your points here, but I don't think the gun firing was an accident. Maybe it was, I dunno, when I saw it I think I saw him aiming it to do that ricochet trick. I'd need to watch it again.

As for keen to do the right thing, I agree, but so were the guys in hockey pads. Blake's got a lot of guts, but other then being a rookie cop (who makes some rather elementary mistakes, way to not clear the corners and let yourself be out maneuvered man) I'm not seeing anything that makes him more of a pro then the Bat Groupies. That he got lucky doesn't speak to his qualifications.

He has to have AT LEAST more training from becoming a cop than the bat groupies. I mean come on dude. Yeah I agree he's green and a rookie and he makes dumb rookie mistakes, hell Gordon himself told him for one, but he was way more together and with it than the bat groupies.

And as for luck? Well, Batman has had way more of it IMO.

[frigidmagi]

Uh those are all legitimate complaints about the previous two films dude.

No, they're nitpicks. Yes, science doesn't work that way, this is a fantasy however and it is presented consistently within the story, so people picking on this are just looking for nits to picks.

It's an important theme is what I mean. Of course skill and training is important, so is brute strength. Bale looks like he has quite a few kilos of more muscle on him the JGL. But I'm talking about the theme of the story. JGL could easily get more training after all, so from that perspective it's not unbelieveable IMO for him to carry on the torch.

Having said that though, the broader point you're making that they should have put Blake and Wayne together more, I also agree with it. I think Nolan was trying to set the Blake=Robin thing up as a twist reveal for the ending, more than anything else, so that's why they didn't team up earlier and have the story be more focused on Blake becoming Robin. Honestly, I prefer it this way. It seems a more organic method for Blake taking up the mantle.

That's something I'm gonna have disagree with, it doesn't feel more organic for someone to come in and just grab up the mantle without any special training or experience. I may be overthinking it or be to attached to the comics. Either way.

He has to have AT LEAST more training from becoming a cop than the bat groupies. I mean come on dude. Yeah I agree he's green and a rookie and he makes dumb rookie mistakes, hell Gordon himself told him for one, but he was way more together and with it than the bat groupies.

And as for luck? Well, Batman has had way more of it IMO.

Batman could have given those groupies training if he wanted to. Or at least explained things. Blake is good people and I'm not trying to rag on the guy, he was after all pretty damn heroic. I ain't trying to take that or anything else away from him. However? My point is, working as Batman, alone, without any backup and only with your hands and few other tools against men of various training with guns? Is not a job for someone without the skill and training, which Blake doesn't have... Yet. Show me him getting those things (Nightwing Begins?) and my objection fades away. Hell if Nolan did a Nightwing movie with that as the focus, most of my objections fade away. At that point I only have to ask Bruce, Why Blake? Is it because he figured it out on his own? Because he lost his parents to? Because he was the cop who came looking for you? Seriously what was it?

That Bruce never tells us or Blake is however I must admit upon consideration, completely and totally in character for Bruce so I might just have to eat that objection and lump it.

As for luck, Batman made alot of his own luck via skill and resources. Not that he didn't have alot of dumb luck, but if luck was all he had... The Ninjas would have ganked his ass in movie one.

[Stofsk]

Uh those are all legitimate complaints about the previous two films dude.

No, they're nitpicks. Yes, science doesn't work that way, this is a fantasy however and it is presented consistently within the story, so people picking on this are just looking for nits to picks.

They aren't really nitpicks because the plot revolves around all of them too much - they're essential for the plot to function therefore they are not tangenitial to the plot. My objection to the microwave and weaponised fear gas isn't so much on the science, as it is on the convoluted nature of it. But I accept it, as it is set up appropriately by establishing scenes earlier in the film. Joker's planning isn't even science, it's downright omniscient how successful his plans were. That is something much more difficult to reconcile and it really is the most consistent and legitimate criticism of TDK - and I love that film. I agree that arguing about the science is borderline nitpickery, but that's not the nature of my objection - we're talking suspension of disbelief, and stuff like 'nuclear reactor that gets turned into a bomb' is close to breaking it, for me. And I'm not even talking about the science part of it, I am talking about how it's basically a cliche at this point.

However, it is not nearly as egregious an example of that particular cliche than other examples I can think of. I don't really want to harp on this point all that much - I'm not saying the fusion reactor turning into a bomb was poorly handled and breaks SoD for me, I'm just saying it has that potential more so than a lot of other scenes. I think the bigger problem though is the back surgery he undergoes whilst in that prison. (and how once he gets out, he makes it back to Gotham relatively easily, which the film just handwaves away)

As for the continued discussion on Blake, I feel it's more that he figured it out by himself and came to Wayne to seek him out and try and coax him into returning as Batman.

[Dark Silver]

[youtube][/youtube]

Very Relevant to topic: Someone did scene where Bane reading Gordon's speech...only replacing Bane with a decent imitation of Mark Hammil's Joker.


Saw TDKR tonight, was good.

[frigidmagi]

I thought this was an interesting discussion on Batman.

Thoughts?