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#1 frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:45 am
by frigidmagi
So last night I went with some friends and saw the Hobbit.

So let's start with the stuff you already know, the Hobbit is based on the work by JRR Tolkien that serves as something of a prologue for the Lord of the Rings. Of course the Hobbit stands alone pretty damn well as a complete and self contained story, which makes sense... That's how it was written.

Jackson for various reasons has decided to split up the Hobbit into 3 movies, while there was some muttering there were no riots across the internet at this news, likely due to Jackson's street cred. But in order to make the Hobbit into a trilogy, Jackson is gonna have to add more stuff. Which in the first movie he does. Alot of it is following the maxium show don't tell by showing us the fall of the Lonely Mountain and the burning of Dale. Others is by Jackson deciding he was gonna take the excuse to plaster chunks of the Return of the King appendix on the big screen (I'm okay with this).

The movie is decidedly different in tone from other adaptions (all one of them) taking on a more serious (but not grimdark) tone. We lose alot of singing, but Jackson and company did managed to slip in some of the bigger songs here and there (I pray that the soundtrack as a complete song of Misty Mountains Cold). The Mark of Del Toro is also very clear in a number of the monster designs, lending a more fantastic and we're not in Kansas air to the movie then the Lord of the Rings had.

I say this movie takes a serious tone, but it's not afraid to laugh. The dwarves in Biblo's home is flat out fun and you'll get more then a few chuckles out of it. Some of the interactions between Gandalf and the others leave you snickering. This is not a movie that refuses to have fun. Which is good, because in the end the Hobbit is supposed to be a fun story!

Spoilers follow:
Spoiler: show
First off we have the added characters that did not appear in the Hobbit book proper. Azog and Radagast the brown wizard. We also have Sarumon and Gladerial putting in appearances in Rivendell with Elrond. But let me discuss Azog and Radagast and their roles in the movie.

Azog is the great white ork (literally) he and Thorin threw down at the gates of Moria after he murdered Thorin's dad. Thorin didn't take it very well and unleashed a torrent of dwarven crazy hacking off Azog's arm. The great thing about this? They don't tell us this, they show us this. This is covered in the Return of the King Appendix although there are some changes (Azog in the books was killed at the gates of Moria). So what's Azog role? He's Captain Ahab and Thorin is moby dick (amusing role reversal earns the movie 1 extra credit point). Thorin beat him in battle using an axe and a chunk of oak, he took his arm and left Azog to die! Throughout this movie Azog is hunting Thorin and makes the difficulties and conflict more personal and in some ways more intense. This isn't some random Ork/Dwarf violence spawned by racial hatred, it's something driven by the personal vendetta between two characters (... and racial hatred). Azog is also well done and most importantly not overused (he's an ork and frankly not a deep or complex character but he doesn't have to be, some people are just simple). I look forward to seeing what Jackson does with him in the next movie.

I wish I could say that about Radagast, his scenes (rabbit sled) jerk you out of the movie and force also whiplash inducing changes in the tone. The character design was frankly taken to far in the wrong dimension. Radagast is suppose to be like Gandalf and Sarumon, WHICH MEANS HE'S A BLOODY ARCHANGEL NOT A SIMPERING MORON! We don't get much of a grip on Radagast and while I think he was suppose to be funny, I didn't find myself laughing like I did at the scenes with the dwarves in Biblo's home. He's easily the character I dislike the most and the weakest part of the movie. Which is a shame because he's a led into the the bigger plot. I hope now that he's done that, he goes away. Back to your hedgehogs you hedgewizard!

Second off we have the expansion of the book characters, although most of the dwarves aren't developed as individuals, Thorin gets some heavy duty character expansion. They show us a dwarf who takes his duty as leader of his people seriously. Who will literally throw himself into danger to protect those in his charge. Even ones like Biblo who aren't dwarves, who he doesn't know and frankly throughout most of this movie shows that he doesn't even like Biblo that much. For all he says that he won't be held responsible for Biblo's fate... Thorin puts himself on the line more then once to keep Biblo alive and whole. Thorin's nobler and better qualities are on full display in this movie. As are some of his worse ones. He is constantly suspicious of others, he hold grudges against all elves for the actions of one elf kingdom. He's prideful and disdainful of people who don't measure up to his standards (Hey, Lucas? This is what Anakin should have been!). Frankly, this Thorin is well done and you find yourself rooting for the dwarf.

The dwarves as a group... Alot of effort is make to make them as least semi-distinct but even then expect for about 4 or 5 of them, they blur together for me. Their motivations as a group are well done in the movie as are their feelings about this quest. Some could read the book and come away with the feeling that it was only revenge and gold lust that prompted the dwarves on their somewhat lunatic trek across miles of ork infested wilderness to fight a fucking dragon with only 13 troops and a hobbit adventurers. The movie without hitting you over the head with it, makes it clear that there's more going on here (although there's revenge and gold lust to, they are dwarves after all). They have no home. They have been reduced to little remarked tatter of a great and glorious culture that made art, science and trade across the north of middle earth. They are constantly roaming with no safety, no surety and nothing to call their own that they cannot carry. This isn't just about getting back at a giant lizard for killing some of their family and friends. This isn't just about getting their grubby hands on the biggest pile of gold on the planet. This is about reclaiming a home, about retaking their past and reclaiming that corner of the world that is theirs by right! And they be damned if they let anyone, be it wizard, elf, ork or dragon stop them from doing so!

You also get to see Biblo grow into his role as an adventurer and thief. From his actions in the Troll dust up and beyond. This Biblo is alot more reluctant and homesick, but it's because of his homesickness that he decides to hobbit up and throw all in with the dwarves. This is a very modern take on Biblo, which stems I think from our need to crawl into everyone's skull and figure out why they do something so insane as to go pick a fight with a fucking dragon. I don't oppose this however. This is after all for a modern audience.

Let me talk about Gladerial and Saruman real quick. They show up in Rivendell and have a meeting that some are gonna find confusing. But it boils down to this. Radagast has found out that Sauron may have returned as the Necronmancer, a being who can call forth the dead (hey, Aragon can do that... Does that make him a necronmancer to?). Sarumon being a dick discounts this because Radagast is a hippie moron (to be fair, Sarumon does have a point) Gladerial runs interference with Gandalf (we also seriously see that Gandalf is her favorite. I mean like completely her favorite. No wonder Saruman is annoyed.).
I recommend the Hobbit, I saw it in 3D and it was used to compliment the movie not distract from it I thought. I intend to see it in 2D as well for comparison purposes.

I give the Hobbit a flat out A. Go see this movie even if you're not a Tolkien fan. Trust me, you'll have fun... Even down in Goblintown.

#2 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:59 pm
by LadyTevar
I figured Jackson was going to use the Appendix to pad out the movies. It's good to see I'm right, because I was always annoyed that we didn't get to see the Wizards & the Elves defeat the Necromancer.

We also only get hints how the One Ring leaving Gollum was tied to the Necromancer's rise. If the Ring had been found by a Goblin (as we have to assume it wanted), the Necromancer/Sauron would have been once again nearly omnipotent. Whatever vision/insight urged Gandalf to pick Bilbo as the 14th member lead to the Ring remaining safely hidden until a time when Elves & Men could once again fight as one army, lead by a King of Men.

I hope Nit feels up to seeing this Saturday...

#3 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:49 am
by Dark Silver
Saw it Wednesday night - I enjoyed the movie entirely, I agree with Frigid for the most part. . .

until. . .
Spoiler: show
Until we get to Goblintown.

More specifically, the Goblin King. I loved the visuals of the entire place, and how they differentiated the Goblin King from everyone else, but I feel they played him up, and his death, to much for laughs.

The Goblin King was immensely well spoken for a Orc/Goblinoid, even better spoken than the Dwarves I found. And his death? That was just slapstick. While I did laugh, I almost wished they had taken that slightly less "has to be funny" and a little more to the "kinda serious danger here" bit.

#4 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:37 pm
by LadyTevar
Saw it today!!

As I'd hoped, the additional information from the Appendixes was slid into place. Seamlessly slid into place, imho. I have no complaints at all, just many many compliments, as well as some AHHA moments as things click into place.

What AHHA Moments? Spoilers, Dearie!
Spoiler: show
Gandalf's reason for supporting this venture: Smaug. Alive, Smaug would be a weapon of Terror for Sauron. The White City, Rivendell, even Lorien would all have fallen to DragonFire.

Why the Dwarves want Erebor back: In the book, it seemed very greedy. Just the Gold. In this movie, there's so much more to it. A homeland. A place to belong, something they've not had in decades. Also, Thorin is more of a leader by actions, not just by lineage.

Sarumon the White, at the council. Now just why is he scoffing at the Necromancer? Why so adamant it's merely an (upstart) human? Even when shown the WitchKing's own blade? Yeah, you're already falling, aren't you Sauron Multi-hued.

The Ring.
Oh, it chose to break free. It felt Bilbo nearby and knew It had a way outta the underground, and It took it. It sprang onto Bilbo's finger at *just* the right moment to keep him alive and able to escape; just as 60yrs later, the Ring will reveal Frodo to the spies in Bree. The Ring holds most of Sauron's power, but also just enough awareness to find a way back. We know it never gets back to Sauron, but if the Ring had been found by anyone else...

#5 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:15 pm
by General Havoc

#6 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:46 pm
by Comrade Tortoise
I pretty much agree with everyone else here. I will however differ with frigid on the matter of a certain crazy Brown Wizard.

He was not dumb. He was not "insane". When shit hit the fan, he was there and he was competent.
Spoiler: show
Once he realized that the massive death in Mirkwood was the result of witchcraft, he slipped into Archangel mode and ressurected a dead hedgehog, and frightened off giant spiders in the same move. He then proceeded to head to that scary old fortress, wherein he annihilated the spectral Witch King of Angmar, then ran the fuck away in a rabbit sleigh to find Gandalf and leads wargs on a merry chase (which was too drawn out IMHO). He also arranges Galdalf's moth-mediated liaison with giant eagles--though that is not present in the film, it is implied pretty well.



He IS a bit mousy in his demeanor and has obviously been isolated from things like two-way-conversation-partners for a long time. He is so nutty he crosses over from sad and lonely to gloriously mad. I can see why some people would find him irritating, but I did not experience that. Even the rabbit sleigh makes sense to me. Gandalf has Shadowfax... but he is a wizard who wanders the roads. Radaghast has a really fast rabbit sleigh. I am sure the nameless blue wizards have their own Epic Mounts. Or would, if Tolkien had bothered to write about them.

#7 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:07 pm
by LadyTevar
Comrade Tortoise wrote:I pretty much agree with everyone else here. I will however differ with frigid on the matter of a certain crazy Brown Wizard.

He was not dumb. He was not "insane". When shit hit the fan, he was there and he was competent.

He IS a bit mousy in his demeanor and has obviously been isolated from things like two-way-conversation-partners for a long time. He is so nutty he crosses over from sad and lonely to gloriously mad. I can see why some people would find him irritating, but I did not experience that. Even the rabbit sleigh makes sense to me. Gandalf has Shadowfax... but he is a wizard who wanders the roads. Radaghast has a really fast rabbit sleigh. I am sure the nameless blue wizards have their own Epic Mounts. Or would, if Tolkien had bothered to write about them.
I fully agree with you on Radagast, as does Nit. Nit compared him to Epic Druid.

While he is fidgety and nervous, I think the reason was pointed out clearly -- he was finding death everywhere. While I'm still unsure why removing the toxin from the hedgehog made the spiders leave (I was expecting dozens of baby spiders to eat their way out), how many non-Wizards would follow giant spiders home? Or survive what was inside Dol Goldur.

The bird droppings down the face? Well, when you have a literal birdsnest in your hair that comes with the territory. I'm assuming they were scouting for him. The rabbits? They reminded me of a line from "van Helsing" movie about Transylvanian Horses -- nothing runs faster, because only the fastest ones survive what's out to kill them.

Also, from a mechanical standpoint the sled seemed perfectly made for the forest. Lightweight but strong, probably willow branches, it could withstand rough terrain. Low-slung, it slid under overhangs, and could easily be given a kick to help it leap obsticles. Of course, Radagast had to be very damn flexible to survive the ride, but I never felt it was too cartoony.

About the only thing about the Warg chase I did have problems with in the movie was how it seemed Radagast was cutting off the Dwarves' escape routes. A second thought now wonders if he was 'helping' Gandalf herd them to Rivendell, by giving the stubborn dwarves no where left to run.

#8 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:59 pm
by Hotfoot
I am perhaps affected by my expectations of Radagast from the LOTR MMO, which I thought did him quite well. I thought he was perhaps a bit too silly and slapstick for my tastes, but I'm going to hold off on damning his inclusion from the movie for the better parts he brought to it, and seeing how he's used later on. If his inclusion is used to set up a sweet battle between the three wizards and the Necromancer, well then so be it.

In any event, I enjoyed the movie overall, and I look forward to the next two.

#9 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:45 pm
by frigidmagi
Okay I'm gonna address the sled bit.

No! No, it doesn't make sense! Sleds need flat ground or they get shaken apart! Especially a wicker sled carrying a full grown man. You cannot use a sled in an old growth forest, there's a reason you see people riding sleds on snow in the arctic or in generally flat areas with smoothed ground (or alot of snow covering the roughness). The sled needs to much room to move through a forest without a road or pathway of some sort (deer paths would be to narrow bluntly), isn't sturdy enough to deal with the rocks, roots and dips and twists in the ground that are plentiful in old growth forests. You know what makes sense in a undergrowth choked old forest because there aren't clear lanes for use of a wagon or sled, nor ground smooth enough for use? A fucking horse. Or hell that deer thing the elf king was riding if you need to pull a more forest theme.

Now the rabbits? I won't hit the unrealism of them pulling sleds because you know... Wizard. But it does bring up the question of why put all that effort into breeding up and training rabbits that big, who are gonna need your constant protection and care.

Now if you like the sled because you like the sled... Fair enough. Or because you just dig the look? Again fair enough.

But claiming it makes sense or is realistic... No! Just no.

#10 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:12 am
by Cynical Cat
Comrade Tortoise wrote:I pretty much agree with everyone else here. I will however differ with frigid on the matter of a certain crazy Brown Wizard.

He was not dumb. He was not "insane". When shit hit the fan, he was there and he was competent.
Spoiler: show
Once he realized that the massive death in Mirkwood was the result of witchcraft, he slipped into Archangel mode and ressurected a dead hedgehog, and frightened off giant spiders in the same move. He then proceeded to head to that scary old fortress, wherein he annihilated the spectral Witch King of Angmar, then ran the fuck away in a rabbit sleigh to find Gandalf and leads wargs on a merry chase (which was too drawn out IMHO). He also arranges Galdalf's moth-mediated liaison with giant eagles--though that is not present in the film, it is implied pretty well.
This is not merely wrong, this is outright deceptive.

1) The objections are that he's silly and played for comic relief being absent minded, getting stoned on mushrooms, and having a head covered in birdshit. This is what was presented in the movie and detracts from the character and the feats he accomplishes.

2) The list of accomplishments is dishonest. It doesn't address the complaint (that Radagast is portrayed half the time life a comic relief bumbling fool) and it's not accurate. No one is disappointed that Radagast accomplished things, but we are disappointed that he may as well have been wearing jester's motley. As for the accomplishments, you haven't
Spoiler: show
We see an ill hedgehog go still and then move a minute later after being fed a potion and a spell is chanted. Their is no "archangel mode" and there is certainly no evidence of death and resurrection. That's magical CPR and healing, not raising the dead. There is no evidence that he was involved with the moth and the eagles, although that's at least plausible. You reach past the likely and supportable evidence for healing and sharing magic to full on resurrection secret salvation. And then you state something which you know to be categorically untrue.

And now the spirit. Is it the Witch King? It might be, or it might be a spirit associated with him. If it is the Witch King, the Nazgul are almost totally powerless without a physical body so defeating it isn't a big deal. Annihilated? Possibly, but maybe just repelled. And if it was the Witch King, he definitely wasn't annihilated because the Nazgul are all still around in Lord of the Rings. In fact the one thing we can absolutely state is that Witch King was not annihilated.
It's a pity that a chance for interesting characterization was wasted in favor of adle brained, tree hugging hippy jokes.

#11 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:10 pm
by Josh
At this point we should either spoiler-tag the thread title or just assume everybody's watched it and stop boxing everything.

On the subject of Radagast, I didn't much care for him either. He felt like the obligatory comedy-insert character and the bulk of his time fell into what I considered the weakness of the movie, which was the editing. I'm not a fan of the whole 'everything must move along at ninety miles an hour' style, but there were some pacing issues and he was a big part of them for me.

#12 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:42 pm
by General Havoc
Radagast struck me as a character who could wind up being much better, but who this time around was used for too many wacky hijinx. We will see what transpires in next year's film.

#13 Re: frigid watched The Hobbit

Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:02 pm
by White Haven
My issues with the movie were less of pacing and more of clashing themes. The moments where the fact that The Hobbit was aimed at children shined through really conflicted with the tone of both the rest of the movie and the LotR trilogy. I don't demand OPPRESSIVE GRIMDARK, but there's humor, and then there's childish humor, and too much of the latter creeps in at times. Doesn't stop it from being a good movie, but it does definitely drag it down.