Order of the Stick Comment thread 611 and counting.

[Dark Silver]

Holy hell......

Damn V...I know you are a font of arcane power with Epic level spells and shit....but...


damn....


I doubt he'll get the XP for it frigid, remember the Demons said he was basically so high level after the soul splice, the XP he'd get would be to small to even notice......

[Charon]

Holy fuck...

I mean...

Holy fuck.

Damn.

[General Havoc]

Holy fuck!

Did he just exterminate the entire race of Black Dragons?

[Dark Silver]

That is what it looks like Havoc

Or at least that dragon's particular family/brood......

[The Minx]

And in other news, certain people at the GitP forums are actually questioning whether this was an evil act. Link. Because obviously, if a race is evil, then genocide is good.

[frigidmagi]

There's always a batch of morons around. It is racist for V to kill all Black Dragons. Racism is judging a sapient based solely on his or her race/species. It is evil for V to murder without any trail or judgement an entire group of sapient beings for the sole cause of "one of you tried to kill my family because I killed her family."

It is unjust and evil. V has fallen as surely as Miko did and he has fallen much, much deeper and for worse reasons.

[The Minx]

There's always a batch of morons around.

Oh yes, I hear that (and I agree with the rest of what you said too). It's just... this is beyond moronic behavior and goes right into being disturbing. People can actually justify that so easily. Granted this is a story based on a game, but still it's a story with legitimate characters. The jump to apologism is way short for some people.

[Dark Silver]

It's undoubtedly a act of genocide and undoubtedly evil, I doubt anyone HERE at least will deny that.

Some of us will admit though...that in V's shoes in a game....we'd probably do the same thing (given the same circumstances in such a world, not as ourselves).

[The Minx]

It's undoubtedly a act of genocide and undoubtedly evil, I doubt anyone HERE at least will deny that.

Some of us will admit though...that in V's shoes in a game....we'd probably do the same thing (given the same circumstances in such a world, not as ourselves).

Assuming we're in a soul splice with a trio of evil epic casters, right. Role-playing morally questionable characters is one of the things that happens in games (though of course, OotS is not a game, it only parodies one).

[Charon]

V had fallen into evil long before this act. Disintegrating a guy simply because he was delaying them anyone? Maybe if V had known what the guy was up to it would be remotely excusable, but as is, this is just a matter of scale and power.

As for if I was in V's shoes? No. Assuming I was given a better second option than "You can get the dragon after they brutally murder your family" I wouldn't take the deal in the first place (Though maybe they could be resurrected... I'm not sure. Screwy D&D death.). If I wasn't, then I would take the deal and I would kill that dragon over and over and over again. But I would not commit genocide.

[General Havoc]

Yeah, that's not a case of "temporarily" giving into evil. That's whole-hearted indulgence right there. Did those people from the forums happen to miss the eggs that V's spell shattered?

[Cynical Cat]

Getting into a soul splice with three vastly more powerful evil spellcasters might have adverse personality and judgment effects? Who would have guessed? Oh wait, all of us.

As an aside, most black dragons are evil. Most is, however, not all and once you start talking about half dragons and so forth you're talking about a lot of alignment variation. I'm not surprised that you can find moral lepers defending the mass murder/genocide. The internet is full of retards.

[The Minx]

Yeah, that's not a case of "temporarily" giving into evil. That's whole-hearted indulgence right there. Did those people from the forums happen to miss the eggs that V's spell shattered?

Apparently, that's not something that matters in their view if the creature is described as evil. <sigh>

One even went so far as to say that if he were DM and his player did this, then he would write "Chaotic Good" on his alignment sheet in permanent marker since nothing could top the goodness of his act. I responded that he didn't know the difference between good and evil. Others started to rant back and forth about what various source books said.

[LadyTevar]

Chaotic, yes... but I'd have trouble saying it was anything but CE. Even Chaotic Nuetral doesn't go that far.

[General Havoc]

Well a Chaotic Neutral character COULD do this (classical CN characters are sort of insane), but much depends on motivation. This was a revenge killing of an entire species (if we take different dragon colors to be separate species that is) out of nothing but spite.

I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Chaotic, but it's DEFINITELY Evil.

[Dark Silver]

I gotta tell you Minx.....the people on that board sound like their full blown whackaloons.

You should stay here, with us sane people.

.....ok, saner people.


As for Chaotic....I've always seen Chaotic Neutral something like the Joker from The Dark Knight. Not so much a force of evil, or good....they just want to watch the world burn - and sometimes their worse than Chaotic Evil.

At least you KNOW with Chaotic Evil that they want to kill everyone, burn everything, and sit back and laugh while doing it...

[The Minx]

I gotta tell you Minx.....the people on that board sound like their full blown whackaloons.

You should stay here, with us sane people.

.....ok, saner people.

Hee hee.

As for Chaotic....I've always seen Chaotic Neutral something like the Joker from The Dark Knight. Not so much a force of evil, or good....they just want to watch the world burn - and sometimes their worse than Chaotic Evil.

At least you KNOW with Chaotic Evil that they want to kill everyone, burn everything, and sit back and laugh while doing it...

Ah, gotta disagree there (this is the 2nd ed interpretation isn't it?)

Wanting to see the world burn is Chaotic Evil, IMHO, while pursuing your own interests and being anti-authoritarian and/or random about it is Chaotic Neutral. Of course, while this might somehow lead to wanting to see (at least part of) the world burn, that's simply one of the viable routes from CN to CE, just as being too anal retentive about interpreting the letter of your alignment is a potential route from LG to LN. After all, the G-E axis is independent of the L-N one, and consistent and/or major malevolent acts move you towards E.

[Charon]

Well a Chaotic Neutral character COULD do this (classical CN characters are sort of insane), but much depends on motivation. This was a revenge killing of an entire species (if we take different dragon colors to be separate species that is) out of nothing but spite.

I don't know that I'd necessarily call it Chaotic, but it's DEFINITELY Evil.

V just possibly killed off an entire branch of Dragons. There will be no more Black Dragons in the world. That is essentially flipping the bird at the gods and is going to cause all sorts of chaos as the rest of the world has to deal with the gap. In my impression, yes it is definitely Chaotic

[Cynical Cat]

Genocide isn't inherently chaotic. The Nazis were quite lawful about it, as were the Hutu authorities in Rawanda.. This is pure, unadulterated evil.

[Hotfoot]

This act is evil, pure and simple, but everything around the act is sympathetic. Most of us would go to places we might not want to go in order to protect what is important to us. It's human nature to defend what is ours. Momma Dragon started the escalation, and has shown the depths she is willing to go to get her revenge. From V's perspective, I can see the trend continuing. V doesn't know how extensive the family is, and who would be willing to continue this sort of blood oath. Maybe it stops with the Momma, maybe it doesn't. V wants his/her family safe, no matter what. The Oracle is going to give them up to any dragon that asks, so as long as there is someone willing to ask, there is a threat. Logically, it makes sense to eradicate the entire family from that perspective.

So there's a logic to it. That doesn't make it good. It's done to save others, which might make it selfless to a degree, but it's a matter of scale. Right now, several dozen dragons are dead to protect the lives of three elves, all of whom V is emotionally invested in. That emotional investment makes the act more selfish than selfless, which of course ties in to the entire decision to accept the soul-splice in the first place, which was entirely selfish.

V's next stop, incidentally, might just be to the Oracle, if he/she isn't stopped by his/her family.

V has just had a fall from grace worthy of what I felt Darth Vader deserved. This is no small praise coming from me.

Additionally, while Chaos isn't absolutely inherent in this action, it certainly was in the killing of Lord Backstabber. The trend is there.

[Cynical Cat]

Additionally, while Chaos isn't absolutely inherent in this action, it certainly was in the killing of Lord Backstabber. The trend is there.

I'm certainly not arguing that V isn't chaotic, merely that characterizing this act as chaotic as opposed to evil is inappropriate. As you yourself pointed out, the act itself is quite rational and logical as opposed to the impulsive murder of Lord Backstabber.

[Hotfoot]

Additionally, while Chaos isn't absolutely inherent in this action, it certainly was in the killing of Lord Backstabber. The trend is there.

I'm certainly not arguing that V isn't chaotic, merely that characterizing this act as chaotic as opposed to evil is inappropriate. As you yourself pointed out, the act itself is quite rational and logical as opposed to the impulsive murder of Lord Backstabber.

Well even with Lord Backstabber, the rationale was there. Utter disregard for law and overall order, however, were not.

In this case, the question becomes "How do you define Chaotic Acts". Are Chaotic Acts ones without rhyme or reason, or do they just go against existing/overall order? If you argue the first, how do Chaotic Good characters decide their actions? Should not the Chaotic displays in Good or Neutral be similar at least to the ones in Evil? Or is that the defining line? At the end of the day, V is clearly on the evil end of the spectrum. What really is in question is the aging alignment system.

[Cynical Cat]

D&D's alignment system associates Law with codes of conducts, laws, and hierarchy and chaos with freedom of action. Thus a guy who breaks every rule in the book, lies, cheats, and steals but does so to help orphans and defeat the evil tyrant is Chaotic Good while the guy who has a strict honour code that has him uphold the law and risk his life for his nation but whose code allows him to decapitate peasants who don't show sufficient respect tends to fall around Lawful Neutral. This can make judging actions on the Law and Chaos scale difficult as the guy who chops off the passing peasants head could the a Chaotic Evil joker type or a Lawful samurai asshole type.

I'm not a fan of the system.

[Hotfoot]

I'm not a fan of the system.

Same here, oh well.

[General Havoc]

I dunno, given all the other alignment systems I've seen, I was actually always fairly fond of the old double-axis nine alignments system. I mean it's certainly not perfect, but I thought it could fit pretty much any type of character within it.

Maybe I've just never seen a better one.