Alright, I've no complaints then.frigidmagi wrote:As per the army, it is assumed the ground crews and what not come with the planes.
STGOD rules thread
Moderator: B4UTRUST
- rhoenix
- The Artist formerly known as Rhoenix
- Posts: 7998
- Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:01 pm
- 17
- Location: "Here," for varying values of "here."
- Contact:
#126
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."
- William Gibson
- William Gibson
Josh wrote:What? There's nothing weird about having a pet housefly. He smuggles cigarettes for me.
#127
Woh, woh, peace man, I was just making a remark, meant nothing by it.frigidmagi wrote:No offense, but... So what? This isn't SDNW3 and it isn't going to be. I made this assuming we using the point system that Zeke created.Steve wrote:Hrm, that's a higher cost for aircraft than I'm doing over at SDNW3
Good mod, nice moddy.... *is clubbed*
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
#128
They were used successfully as scouts, not bombers. The German attempt to bomb England during the First World War was proportionally the most expensive bombing campaign in history. It was also one of the least cost effective, since the absurd cost of each bomb load did not pay off in anything but negligeble damage.frigidmagi wrote:I'm including zepplins for several reasons, one they were sucessfully used in WWI, and given what I've looked up of early 1930s bombers would still carry heavier bomb loads. There's been no Hindenburg crash to kill the idea of using rigid lighter then air ships.
Airships are also extremely vulnerable, the only worthwhile armour the Germans were able to find was height. An airship flying in range of enemy guns is a dead airship, full stop. There's just no way you can armour something that big against against the kind of firepower available. We're talking about a target the size of a stadium moving at a leisurely pace through the sky, it's any AAA crew's wet dream.
#129
It's arguably not very sporting to shoot them.
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
- frigidmagi
- Dragon Death-Marine General
- Posts: 14757
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
- 19
- Location: Alone and unafraid
#130
I've read of at least one successful bomb raid using a pair of 200pd bombs. Either way, the 2 engine bombers are much, much faster if at the moment carrying a much smaller bomb load. Course no one is forcing you to buy Zeppelins, Hadri so feel free to have Russia stick to planes.they were used successfully as scouts, not bombers. The German attempt to bomb England during the First World War was proportionally the most expensive bombing campaign in history. It was also one of the least cost effective, since the absurd cost of each bomb load did not pay off in anything but negligeble damage.
Last edited by frigidmagi on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
#131
That's not the problem. The problem is that by offering them up for sale you're implying that a fleet of airships will do anything other than go down in flames once it enters combat, which is simply not the case. The things are worse than useless, and absurdly expensive. Not to mention that they can't handle any weather more threatening than a gentle breeze, and they're too slow to avoid storms and the like. You might as well make coal-fired tanks a possible buy.frigidmagi wrote:I've read of at least one successful bomb raid using a pair of 200pd bombs.Either way, the 2 engine bombers are much, much faster if at the moment carrying a much smaller bomb load. Course no one is forcing you to buy Zeppelins, Hadri so feel free to have Russia stick to planes.
Airships were a good idea, as scouts, back when aircraft were limited to altitudes below 15,000 feet. By this era there's no height an airship can reach that a fighter can't match. Their huge size and slow speed means a single fighter can easily down any airship with just a strafing run. The US Navy actually did try using airships during this time period. They had two airship aircraft carriers, neither proved to be of much use, and both were lost to adverse weather. They were also used as convoy escorts during the Second World War in an ASW role, but they didn't sink anything, and their size made it possible to spot allied convoys that would have otherwise been hidden over the horizon.
Last edited by Hadrianvs on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- frigidmagi
- Dragon Death-Marine General
- Posts: 14757
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 11:03 am
- 19
- Location: Alone and unafraid
#133
Alright this is how we'll do it. Vote.
Aye or Nay for the current airforce point buy? A nay vote means a removal of zeppelins.
The vote will go until 1:30am Wednesday. We start now.
Standard rules for vote apply no outside posts until the vote ends.
Aye or Nay for the current airforce point buy? A nay vote means a removal of zeppelins.
The vote will go until 1:30am Wednesday. We start now.
Standard rules for vote apply no outside posts until the vote ends.
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
- The Cleric
- Thy Kingdom Come...
- Posts: 741
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
- 19
- Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
- Contact:
#134
Don't buy them if you don't want them. Easy as that.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.
The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
#135
Aye
Recasting: Nay, specifically to "super-zeppelins".
To clarify, my vote is a Nay to permitting zeppelins that are ahistorically superior, the rest of the system is okay by me.
Recasting: Nay, specifically to "super-zeppelins".
To clarify, my vote is a Nay to permitting zeppelins that are ahistorically superior, the rest of the system is okay by me.
Last edited by Steve on Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
#136
It's not, because I don't want them in the game any more than I want jetpack infantry.The Cleric wrote:Don't buy them if you don't want them. Easy as that.
EDIT - Sorry, Magi, didn't see we'd switched to "vote mode".
Mine is obvious.
Last edited by Hadrianvs on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Cynical Cat
- Arch-Magician
- Posts: 11930
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:53 pm
- 19
- Location: Ice Sarcophagus outside a ruined Jedi Temple
- Contact:
#137
As cool as they would be, we're not playing a steampunk game.
Nay.
Nay.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
- General Havoc
- Mr. Party-Killbot
- Posts: 5245
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:12 pm
- 19
- Location: The City that is not Frisco
- Contact:
#138
Abstain. I'm not wedded to their existence or nonexistence.
Gaze upon my works, ye mighty, and despair...
Havoc: "So basically if you side against him, he summons Cthulu."
Hotfoot: "Yes, which is reasonable."
Havoc: "So basically if you side against him, he summons Cthulu."
Hotfoot: "Yes, which is reasonable."
- Comrade Tortoise
- Exemplar
- Posts: 4832
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
- 19
- Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
- Contact:
#139
Aye. They did exist historically, so long as it is made clear that their effectiveness is not proportional to cost.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
- Theodosius Dobzhansky
There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid
The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
-
- Acolyte
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:27 pm
- 15
#140
I want Zeppelins to be in the game, though I agree that they are of fairly limited military use.
Edit: So AYE
edit2:
Edit: So AYE
edit2:
You mean the Steampunk SD on Spacebattles?Slacker wrote:...but I want Crimson Skies-esque airship duels over the mad carnage of Kiev! *lipquiver*
Last edited by KlavoHunter on Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- rhoenix
- The Artist formerly known as Rhoenix
- Posts: 7998
- Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:01 pm
- 17
- Location: "Here," for varying values of "here."
- Contact:
#141
Zeppelins turn into horrendous fireballs if shot down, right?
Damn, that's delicious. I vote Aye, especially since I won't be fielding very many.
Damn, that's delicious. I vote Aye, especially since I won't be fielding very many.
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes."
- William Gibson
- William Gibson
Josh wrote:What? There's nothing weird about having a pet housefly. He smuggles cigarettes for me.
#142
Aye.
Klavo-think back to old school Seas of Steel. They're somewhere between ZOMG awesome! and crapulence.
I don't mind working out a system where you pay more points for better stuff-say the proposed system for 'normal' zepps, but if you want to spend 2 or 3 points per Zepp for an 'armored' design that would significantly outperform historical designs, that'd be spiffy.
Klavo-think back to old school Seas of Steel. They're somewhere between ZOMG awesome! and crapulence.
I don't mind working out a system where you pay more points for better stuff-say the proposed system for 'normal' zepps, but if you want to spend 2 or 3 points per Zepp for an 'armored' design that would significantly outperform historical designs, that'd be spiffy.
- The Cleric
- Thy Kingdom Come...
- Posts: 741
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:34 pm
- 19
- Location: The Right Hand Of GOD
- Contact:
#143
I'm thinking useful for peacetime transportation and such. If not for the Hindenburg, there might still be a niche market for them, almost like cruise ships.
Cleric the floor is closed expect for voting. Please enter a vote or wait until afterwards to post arguments
Cleric the floor is closed expect for voting. Please enter a vote or wait until afterwards to post arguments
Last edited by The Cleric on Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never shall innocent blood be shed, yet the blood of the wicked shall flow like a river.
The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
The three shall spread their blackened wings and be the vengeful striking hammer of god.
- Academia Nut
- Adept
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:52 am
- 16
- Contact:
#144
You know what? Even though I agree that zepplins aren't a great idea, I will vote yes on this set of rules. I kind of like the idea of quirky tech that has yet to be refined fully, with dead end ideas making things more interesting.
#145
Aye. Zeppelins are unseen and underused in too many non-steampunk games.
tiny friendly crab.
also known as Czechmate.
also known as Czechmate.
- Academia Nut
- Adept
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:52 am
- 16
- Contact:
#146
Well, since the vote should have finished up by now, I would just like to point out a few things I've noticed while doing some preliminary work with the rules as presented to get a feel for things and to get a head start on having things in shape.
1) The way things are written right now with the doctrine focuses allowing for a certain percentage of industry being spent on points it is really hard to get things to add up to 100%. You need Navy 4, Army 5, Air Force 0 or Navy 5, Army 4, Air Force 0, etc. etc. Basically you need to sink nearly a third of your points into doctrines in order to actually use the points you bought at the start of the game. And since in order to get Navy higher than 2 you need to have Industry and Economy both at 4 or better, and getting Industry to 4 requires half your points right there, it seems damn near impossible to actually get to use 100% of your points.
2) Something is off with the point:size ratios for the armies. If I have a 3 in everything and put the 1 industrial bonus into the army that means that I have 280 points to spend on the army, and if I buy all infantry divisions at 10 points apiece that means I have 280,000 men and (including bonuses from colonies) Pop 4 + Econ 4 = 16% of 90 million or 14.4 million in reserves, which seems a touch off. Not the reserves per se, but rather the size disparity between the standing army and reserves. Even at standing army 5 and infantry 5 your standing army is at best half a million men. And that is if you are going for human wave tactics without bringing things like artillery into play. Now, I understand that the numbers given don't include support personnel, but the numbers still at least feel off.
1) The way things are written right now with the doctrine focuses allowing for a certain percentage of industry being spent on points it is really hard to get things to add up to 100%. You need Navy 4, Army 5, Air Force 0 or Navy 5, Army 4, Air Force 0, etc. etc. Basically you need to sink nearly a third of your points into doctrines in order to actually use the points you bought at the start of the game. And since in order to get Navy higher than 2 you need to have Industry and Economy both at 4 or better, and getting Industry to 4 requires half your points right there, it seems damn near impossible to actually get to use 100% of your points.
2) Something is off with the point:size ratios for the armies. If I have a 3 in everything and put the 1 industrial bonus into the army that means that I have 280 points to spend on the army, and if I buy all infantry divisions at 10 points apiece that means I have 280,000 men and (including bonuses from colonies) Pop 4 + Econ 4 = 16% of 90 million or 14.4 million in reserves, which seems a touch off. Not the reserves per se, but rather the size disparity between the standing army and reserves. Even at standing army 5 and infantry 5 your standing army is at best half a million men. And that is if you are going for human wave tactics without bringing things like artillery into play. Now, I understand that the numbers given don't include support personnel, but the numbers still at least feel off.
#147
Actually, getting Industry to max 5 is what takes half your points, but of course you get benefits from it anyway.
If Frigid considers the voting done, then I wish to propose the following amendments:
1) That Economy be redefined to increase or decrease Industrial building points in both peacetime and wartime. Economy below 3 would negatively modify peacetime and have lower wartime percentages. Economy above 3 would positively modify peacetime and further heighten wartime.
2) The prerequisites for Industry be modified to permit either Territory score to be used. Instead of one's colonies being the only score that counts it could be either Home or Colonial, depending on player's choice.
3) And as stated in the chat last night, I would like to convince the players that if we're going to do 1930s army tech and 1930s air tech, we might as well do 1930s ships.
4) Standing Military Limit be modified so that the negatives of going over 3 be reduced, at current it costs one 9 points to get to 5 SML due to the negative modifiers.
If the voting's not over with then we wait until it is before discussing/voting. And I go get my painkillers for when Magi breaks out the mod club.
If Frigid considers the voting done, then I wish to propose the following amendments:
1) That Economy be redefined to increase or decrease Industrial building points in both peacetime and wartime. Economy below 3 would negatively modify peacetime and have lower wartime percentages. Economy above 3 would positively modify peacetime and further heighten wartime.
2) The prerequisites for Industry be modified to permit either Territory score to be used. Instead of one's colonies being the only score that counts it could be either Home or Colonial, depending on player's choice.
3) And as stated in the chat last night, I would like to convince the players that if we're going to do 1930s army tech and 1930s air tech, we might as well do 1930s ships.
4) Standing Military Limit be modified so that the negatives of going over 3 be reduced, at current it costs one 9 points to get to 5 SML due to the negative modifiers.
If the voting's not over with then we wait until it is before discussing/voting. And I go get my painkillers for when Magi breaks out the mod club.
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
- Academia Nut
- Adept
- Posts: 1333
- Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:52 am
- 16
- Contact:
#148
No, it requires 12 points in the other fields to get the prerequisites for Industry 4, and then the 4 points for the industry itself, bringing it up to 16 points out of 30. If you use the bonuses from the colonies then its only 14 points devoted. For Industry 5 you need 15 points in pop, inf, colonies, and economy with min 3 pop and 4 econ. So...
Colonies 5
Pop 1 +2
Econ 2 +2
Inf 3
11 points there, which means the absolute min is 16 points to get industry 5, and you need significant colonies outside of your home territory. If you want Naval 5 you need to spend another point in economy to get up to level 5, and then another 2 points because of the bonus from industry... total expenditure is 19 points so far. Then you're going to need to purchase a standing military. Let's go with 3. 22 points. 8 points remaining. With this min max set-up though, we now run into the opposite problem of what I brought up before in that you can take Army 5 and Air force 3 so you can spend:
60% on Navy
50% on Army
15% on Air force
125% total
I'm just saying that this percentage system is riddled with problems in that you're likely to either under or over shoot the 100% expenditure.
Colonies 5
Pop 1 +2
Econ 2 +2
Inf 3
11 points there, which means the absolute min is 16 points to get industry 5, and you need significant colonies outside of your home territory. If you want Naval 5 you need to spend another point in economy to get up to level 5, and then another 2 points because of the bonus from industry... total expenditure is 19 points so far. Then you're going to need to purchase a standing military. Let's go with 3. 22 points. 8 points remaining. With this min max set-up though, we now run into the opposite problem of what I brought up before in that you can take Army 5 and Air force 3 so you can spend:
60% on Navy
50% on Army
15% on Air force
125% total
I'm just saying that this percentage system is riddled with problems in that you're likely to either under or over shoot the 100% expenditure.
#149
If it's not too late to stick my foot in the the door, I'd like to join in. Tenuous concept of 1930s Ace Combat-esque Manchuria/Northern China chaps. Preferably without the 'lose the entire country bar one airbase' thing, though.
#150
Academia Nut wrote:No, it requires 12 points in the other fields to get the prerequisites for Industry 4, and then the 4 points for the industry itself, bringing it up to 16 points out of 30. If you use the bonuses from the colonies then its only 14 points devoted. For Industry 5 you need 15 points in pop, inf, colonies, and economy with min 3 pop and 4 econ. So...
Colonies 5
Pop 1 +2
Econ 2 +2
Inf 3
11 points there, which means the absolute min is 16 points to get industry 5, and you need significant colonies outside of your home territory. If you want Naval 5 you need to spend another point in economy to get up to level 5, and then another 2 points because of the bonus from industry... total expenditure is 19 points so far. Then you're going to need to purchase a standing military. Let's go with 3. 22 points. 8 points remaining. With this min max set-up though, we now run into the opposite problem of what I brought up before in that you can take Army 5 and Air force 3 so you can spend:
60% on Navy
50% on Army
15% on Air force
125% total
I'm just saying that this percentage system is riddled with problems in that you're likely to either under or over shoot the 100% expenditure.
Oh, sorry, misunderstood you on the Industry thing.
Though logically the Focuses just mean how many points you can devote to each service. In this case, for instance, a player can spend as high as 60%, but then can only spend 40% on other services regardless of Focus score.
Oh, Screwball, interesting timing, Frigidmagi is interested in a player for the Qing Dynasty or really anyone to play the rest of China (or at least the interesting bits of the rest of China). Suggest you post in the other thread though, the "STGOD" thread as opposed to the Rules thread.
Chatniks on the (nonexistant) risks of the Large Hadron Collector:
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina
"The chance of Shep talking his way into the control room for an ICBM is probably higher than that." - Seth
"Come on, who wouldn't trade a few dozen square miles of French countryside for Warp 3.5?" - Marina