Can a substance (booze) be intrinsically evil? (split: GD)

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:04 am

Alcohol is EVIL!!

To all those who do drink, don't let it take over your lives you'll regret the consequences. Especially if you kill someone's little kid by drunk driving or you loose your cool when having a fight with someone. That shit is bad, be careful people.

BTW, addiction happens faster than you imagine too. Sometimes one does not even see it coming on.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:10 am

Mrs. Kendall...

I've had one or two drinks in my entire life... I'm not about to go drinking myself into stupidity... and I'd speak for everyone else, but I'm not sure on their fronts.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:13 am

I was just warning people about how alcohol addiction can creep up on you or anyone else buddy no need to jump on me!

In case you haven't noticed I wasn't the only one who said something similiar in this thread, so go bug them too if you're wanting to be fair.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:20 am

That was aimed at all people saying that... you were just the most recent person to post it.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:52 pm

Mrs Kendall wrote:Alcohol is EVIL!!

To all those who do drink, don't let it take over your lives you'll regret the consequences. Especially if you kill someone's little kid by drunk driving or you loose your cool when having a fight with someone. That shit is bad, be careful people.

BTW, addiction happens faster than you imagine too. Sometimes one does not even see it coming on.

As with most things, a certain degree of responsibility and moderation is required to 'safely' use such forms of luxuary. You do have a point in that people should be aware of such things.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:44 pm

Alcohol is not evil. Alcohol is an intoxicating substance. Someone who abuses it is evil. No item in and of itself CAN be evil.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:51 pm

What about a Barbie Doll? They're evil.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:49 pm

Split from Here

Let the civil discussion commence

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:09 pm

No. The answer is no.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:43 pm

To be evil, or to do evil requires a choice. To make a choice requires thought. Booze cannot think, having no mind. Therefore, booze cannot be evil or good, nor do evil or good. It merely is and exist.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:18 am

Dakarne wrote:That was aimed at all people saying that... you were just the most recent person to post it.

Yeah yeah, that's why you started off your post by typing Mrs Kendall...

Tell me more lies buddy.

Either way you didn't have to get all pissy about it, it was just a fair warning as I have just recently seen the effects of how fast one can become addicted to the shit. and I watched it happen not even noticing it. So chill buddy.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:21 am

The Cleric wrote:Alcohol is not evil. Alcohol is an intoxicating substance. Someone who abuses it is evil. No item in and of itself CAN be evil.

OMG, nictpick central right here. Do you think I don't know that, come on give me a break. It is evil to me because it caused a man to kill my cousin when he was 8 years old! Is that reason enough for me to hate alcohol? You know what I don't care what you think that was an opinion I stated and I'm free to do so. So stop your nitpicking.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:51 am

He did not nitpick. He made a valid rebuttal to your claim that 'Alcohol is EVIL!' Fine, so you qualified it by stating you had a traumatic experience and so that informs your opinions over the matter, but that isn't immediately apparent in your post on the top of the page. You didn't state that you had a trauma and that someone close to you was killed and alcohol factors into it to a large degree, but you did warn about the extreme effects alcohol abuse has on those who are addicted to it.

Fine, fair enough. You're right about alcohol abuse can hurt others as well as yourself, and you're in particular right about how addicts delude themselves into thinking they're not addicted (or may not care that they are, which is my experience), but that's saying something different from 'alcohol is EVIL!' And I think Cleric has a valid point that it's not the substance but the person who abuses the substance that is performing evil.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:10 am

My 2nd cousin was killed in a car crash where a truck driver fell asleep at the wheel and came across and hit him. Therefore, based on my experiences, SLEEP IS EVIL!!!

See how that doesn't really work?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:34 am

Good analogy there Cleric.

But as stated already, no, alcohol is not evil. Some people are certainly more suscepible to being addicted to it, and it most definitely has potential negative consequences from it's usage (although I blame the person, not the alcohol). But from first hand experience, I certainly don't have any problem despite having drunk quite a bit at times, and even heavily impaired I tend to keep my wits about me.

I guess the fact I just generally don't like the taste of alcohol helps my case. I only do it when I would like to loosen up and head out somewhere to party. But I've never felt any type of craving for drinking (water, juice and milk aside of course ;))

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:52 am

There is another reason why Mrs Kendall thinks alcohol is evil and hates it. On 27 December 04 I was off my meds and was loaded and I lost control and I hit her, several times. This lead to a rather lengthy court proceeding with me being charged with assualt, I got off with a conditional discharge which states that I have to stay medicated and can't drink for 18 months.

Needless to say, this almost destroyed our marriage and Mrs Kendall, only just let me move back in with her and the kids in May.

So don't be too harsh on her, she's got a valid reason to hate alcohol.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:27 am

The Cleric wrote:Alcohol is not evil. Alcohol is an intoxicating substance. Someone who abuses it is evil. No item in and of itself CAN be evil.

I'd clarify and point out no person is 'evil' either. Either stupid, morally deficient, or both. Naturally the viewpoint is subjective.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:38 am

So do you guys see why I have the point of view that I do have around alcohol now?

I believe that if my husband hadn't have had 10 beer that night he wouldn't have hit me therefore alcohol causes people to do stupid things therefore in my mind alcohol is evil.
I also believe that anybody who drives drunk deserves to die themselves because of my cousin dying when he was only a kid.

@ The Cleric - Your second cousin who was killed by a man who was tired is a little different in that he just didn't use the smarts he should have had to stay away from a vehicle when he was tired. Maybe he was in a hurry to get somewhere and couldn't take a nap or maybe he didn't feel safe sitting on the side of the road to have a nap.... there could be many reasons but this man who killed my cousin had a record therefore he drove drunk all the time. When this man died my family had a party.

EDIT: And don't you dare judge my husband. He is not the typical abusive husband, this was a one time thing that he really didn't remember doing because he was so drunk. The anger got away from his control because he had been off his antidepressants for a few days and he was hearing those voices he hears if he doesn't take meds. My husband is a really nice man who would not hurt anyone unless they deserved it. He gives to the battered women charities and everything, he hates men who abuse their partners, as do I.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:53 am

Mrs Kendall wrote:So do you guys see why I have the point of view that I do have around alcohol now?

No one is attacking you Mrs K. But by your own (and Cpl K's) admissions, you aren't objective on the matter.

I believe that if my husband hadn't have had 10 beer that night he wouldn't have hit me therefore alcohol causes people to do stupid things therefore in my mind alcohol is evil.

When I drink, I drink with friends and have a good time, loosening up and even talking to women I'd normally be more hesitant to do so. Even when incapable of walking straight, I never drink and drive or go with anyone doing so. I'm still polite (in fact, I only get more friendly when drunk) and I don't act like an ass. Where's the evil in that?

I also believe that anybody who drives drunk deserves to die themselves because of my cousin dying when he was only a kid.

Anyone driving drunk gets what's coming to them I agree. Unfortunately, it's the innocents that suffer in the majority of cases.

Your second cousin who was killed by a man who was tired is a little different in that he just didn't use the smarts he should have had to stay away from a vehicle when he was tired.

However, the same applies to alcohol. A person should use their smarts when drinking. If they cannot handle it in a responsible, safe manner, they shouldn't do it.

Maybe he was in a hurry to get somewhere and couldn't take a nap or maybe he didn't feel safe sitting on the side of the road to have a nap.... there could be many reasons but this man who killed my cousin had a record therefore he drove drunk all the time. When this man died my family had a party.

It wasn't the alcohol's fault, it was his. You have to seperate the alcohol from the person. His stupidity and lack of will power is what killed your cousin...the alcohol didn't.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:59 am

Alcohol isn't evil. It is, however an inherently dangerous substance and should be regarded with caution, especially if one is particularly prone to the dangers it presents.

Mrs Kendall · Post by **Mrs Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:02 am

No, I'm done with this argument. I fail to see how one can compare driving drunk to driving while you're tired. At least when you're just tired your mind is still functioning properly, when you're drunk you're not thinking straight and typically one feels like he can do anything while drunk and be invincible.
It's just not comparible in my eyes. It may cause the same effect like it has in our experiences here but it's not the same.

And I have already stated that yeah I used the word Evil but you should know that I'm not that dumb to think that the substance itself is evil, it's what it causes a person to do

And Rob, you're one of the good people on alcohol, if one has a lot of anger and is depressed or whatever and is under the influence there is a greater chance of them doing something horrible. There's a reason most abusive husbands are ordered to go to AA and shit like that. Not all people who drink take it as well as you do and I was merely warning those of you who do drink that addiction can creep up on you. Like I said I didn't even notice that my husband was drinking more and more, I didn't even know he was addicted and he lived with me!

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:04 am

Hotfoot wrote:Alcohol isn't evil. It is, however an inherently dangerous substance and should be regarded with caution, especially if one is particularly prone to the dangers it presents.

Exactly. I'm an alcoholic and I know to stay away from it (regardless of the court order or not), otherwise bad things happen when I drink. I've learned through all of this that it's not the alcohol's fault, but rather my lack of self control in regards to my use of alcohol that gets me in trouble.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:04 am

Hotfoot wrote:Alcohol isn't evil. It is, however an inherently dangerous substance and should be regarded with caution, especially if one is particularly prone to the dangers it presents.

Reminds me of the nuclear weapons analogy. Some claim they're "evil" and should be destroyed and never created again. Yet they quickly backtrack if presented with how nuclear weapons could be used to save all life on Earth...say as in deflecting a planet killing asteroid.

Cpl Kendall · Post by **Cpl Kendall** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:08 am

Robert Walper wrote:
Reminds me of the nuclear weapons analogy. Some claim they're "evil" and should be destroyed and never created again. Yet they quickly backtrack if presented with how nuclear weapons could be used to save all life on Earth...say as in deflecting a planet killing asteroid.

I think you've been watching too much Armageddon there Walper.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:09 am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Reminds me of the nuclear weapons analogy. Some claim they're "evil" and should be destroyed and never created again. Yet they quickly backtrack if presented with how nuclear weapons could be used to save all life on Earth...say as in deflecting a planet killing asteroid.
I think you've been watching too much Armageddon there Walper.

Hey, it's plausible.

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