[Exalted] Lords of the Hundred Kingdoms OOC

[Hawkwings]

Right, I may downgrade to a 2-dot manse and spend that extra dot on an artifact then. The rest of my background points would be 2 in cult and 2 in resources.

Virtues: probably Compassion 2, Conviction 3, Temperance 3, and Valor 1. Virtue flaw would be tied to Conviction, and Heart of Flint looks good.

Now to look over Charms... any suggested ones?

[Lys]

So fridgidmagi's character probably has a Flaw of Valour, Hawkings character has a Flaw of Conviction, and my character will also have a Flaw of Conviction. Heh, our group might be good but clearly we're not going to be nice.

[Hawkwings]

I'm thinking of taking these charms. Comments?

Shadow Over Water

Ox-Body Technique

Sagacious Reading of Intent

Essence Arrow Attack

First Lore Excellency
Second Lore Excellency
Harmonious Academic Methodology
Essence-Lending Method

Third Medicine Excellency
Wound-Mending Care Technique

[The Nomad]

Did I mention that the Ink Monkeys invented a Charm that mimicks Gates of Babylon?

[Lys]

I'm thinking of taking these charms. Comments?

It looks good for a support character. Academic Methodology in particularly would be very useful for making both mine and frigidmagi's characters stronger, but I have no idea how we could reciprocate. I recommend you take Essence Arrow with the fire arrow effect, as a Zenith's aura already has holy effects, and extra damage isn't as versatile as a lighter. I was going to suggest Sagacious Reading of Intent would be redundant since I'm the social character and pretty much have to take it, but it's a perfect defence so most Solars wind up with it and/or Elusive Dream Defence sooner or later.

Did I mention that the Ink Monkeys invented a Charm that mimicks Gates of Babylon?

I don't know whether to be excited or terrified.

[The Nomad]

Mmhh... If General Havoc doesn't want to play and you are only three, it might be a good idea to postpone learning those Lore Charms in favor of defensive or 'adventuring' type Charms (like Body-Mending Meditation and Seven Shadow Evasion, and either a Dodge or Martial Arts Excellency). The game won't necessarily be very action-oriented, but your character' should be able to do his part in a scrap. As one First Age Twilight said, all Exalted were created to be warriors of some kind; even if it's not your character's focus, you should have a minimum of martial skill. Even Arianna, the signature Twilight, is an expert at throwing knives.

[Lys]

I think he's going to be an archer, which is good because ranged attackers can be really problematic for a melee or martial arts only group. The best thing one can do as an archer is "kiting", which is to say getting one of those awesome jumping charms and using them to always stay out of range.

For perfect defence an archer should take either Seven Shadow Evasion or Adamant Skin Technique, because you cannot parry with a bow. Though, technically there is no reason why an optimized character would ever take Heavenly Guardian Defence. Everything it can do SSE can do better. I'm probably taking it anyway though, because parrying is badass.

[The Nomad]

HGD in itself is inferior to SSE (logical, considering Melee is mixed attack/defense, while Dodge is pure defense), the epic Melee Charm that allows you to make mountains rebound on your sword, or still earthquakes, is well worth it IMHO.

[The Nomad]

frigid, about your Zenith message, how about: "Lead my Children and Creation on the path of righteousness". Fits your background with a Solar tyrant pretty well.

[Lys]

I found a Map of Creation that's accurate for 2nd Edition. It's not as pretty as the old 1st Ed stanby, but it's serviceable and updated for changes in canon.

Where exactly in the Hundred Kingdoms are we stating the game? Actually, no, back up, what are we defining as "Hundred Kingdoms"? The official definition is basically east from Marita out to most of the way up the Meander and Maruto rivers. However, there are a number of areas west of Marina which have been described in the fluff as being in the Hundred Kingdoms. This includes the areas bordering the Linowan Nation, the Avarice River, and the kingdom that Denadsor is located in.

Most people, including myself, usually just extend the Hundred Kingdoms out to cover the empty area between Great Forks and Marita, as well as that between the Grey and Sandy Rivers, but not the area between the Grey and Rolling Rivers. In the North the HK extend out to the Black Chase and the Linowan Nation. This avoids the problem of having an area that is most likely filled with petty principalites, and yet is somehow not part of the catchall term for "petty principalities here". The eastern borders remain unchanged: The HK terminate on the border with Greyfalls, and somewhere up the Meander River and Maruto River.

Roughly speaking, it's slightly larger than People's Republic of China. If there are literally 100 kingdoms then each one is about the size of Hungary or South Korea, on average. There are probably quite a bit more than a hundred, so average sizes are liable to be smaller. If it's two hundred kingdoms then they go down to being about the size of Slovakia.

The entire area is described as a major breadbasket, which makes sense given its temperate climate, plentiful water, and proximity to the fructifying effects of the Wood Pole. I imagine that the terrain is broken up like Central Europe's rather than China's, else it would be Romance of the Five Kingdoms. It's probably similar to Medieval Germany, the original Hundred Kingdoms. That would be 80-90 people per square mile, which for the given area that gives a total population of ~320 million people. However, the Hundred Kingdoms includes plains and heavy forests which aren't as farmable, so the overall average probably drops down to around 60-70 people per square mile. Total population would then be ~250 million people.

During the First Age, the same area probably had well over a billion people thanks to magitek.

EDIT - Oh wow, I started talking about one thing and ended talking about another. Lost two or three hours doing research too. This is what happens when you both have a short attention span and the ability to hyperfocus. ^-^

EDIT 2 - I found this thing which could be useful if anyone wants to make a random kingdom. It's in metric so handy conversion: 40 people/sq km = 100 people/sq mi; 30 people/sq km = 75 people/sq mi; 20 people/sq km = 50 people/sq mi.

[Lys]

Oh wow, apparently the country of Greyfalls has a population of 530 000 people occupying a triangle about 100 miles on the side, for a population density of 120 people / square mile. Only problem is that the triangle of land between the Rock and Lesser Rock Rivers actually measures 500 miles on the side, which gives a population density of 3 people / square mile...

*headache*

Does nobody do the math in Exalted? Greyfalls is either fabulously fertile and well developed or emptier than Greenland. >.<

[frigidmagi]

Is there a population center? For example take New York State with a population of 18 million. 8 million of those people are crammed into New York City about 45% of the population there more or less.

[Lys]

Is there a population center? For example take New York State with a population of 18 million. 8 million of those people are crammed into New York City about 45% of the population there more or less.

Yeah, Greyfalls City. The book says it has a population of 50 000 people. I think the problem is that the guy writing that part of Compass of Celestial Directions: The Scavenger Lands thought Creation was 1/5 the size it actually is. Because his population density, while pretty high for late medieval or early renaissance tech level, is not impossible. France hit 95 people / sq mi in the 14th century before they got hit with the plague and the 100 Years War entered its uglier phases. Actually, Creation has a longer year which gives them three harvests instead of the two we got on Earth with similar tech level. All my numbers above could be revised upward to take that into account. Adjusted for its actual size Greyfalls should have 22.5 million people if we go by the book's population density.

Also, minor correction: 3 people / sq mi is emptier than Mongolia, because Greenland is even emptier than that.

[SirNitram]

Greyfalls has always been a messed up little place. It's SUPPOSED(Read supposed), by writer intent, to be one of the most populous cities this far East. It's a center for trade and similar, but it doesn't dare stick it's dick into the beehive of the 100 Kingdoms because there could be, and things suggest, ARE, lots of Anathema there. Not to mention countries which are like this. OOTS. Subtract desert, add ruins, tombs, and forests.

[The Nomad]

Mmmh yeah, scale can be fucked up in Exalted sometimes.

Also Hawkwings, just noticed the virtues: remember that WP is no longer tied to Virtues, so you don't need to minmax. Valor 1 is a real coward, not merely someone who isn't aggressively assertive or hot-headed.

[Hawkwings]

I ran out of points to put into valor :( Shall I just transfer one over from Temperance then?

[frigidmagi]

Use some bonus pts?

[Lys]

Valor 1 is a real coward, not merely someone who isn't aggressively assertive or hot-headed.

The Exalted automatically pass morale rolls when going into battle, regardless of their virtues. This suggests to me that Valour 1 only represents a real coward on a mortal.

I've always thought that the virtues of an Exalt were a level higher than those of mortals. An Exalt with Compassion 1 is more compassionate than a mortal with the same; whereas an Exalt with Compassion 5 is compassionate on a level that no mortal can manage. This can be pretty hard to roleplay, so most people tend to go with virtues being the same for everyone, but I always thought it a worthy effort to at least try to make an Exalt's emotion go the step beyond.

[The Nomad]

Huh no, not really. Only with the transhumanist Charms such as Epic Zeal of (Virtue) do Exalts really adopt psychologies beyond mere mortals. With the same Virtue pool they'll manage slightly more often due to the 10x2 rule, but that is true of heroic mortals as well. I think Valor is the virtue that no canon Exalt has below 2, and I don't think any PC should either barring Fae soul nom-nom-nom.

[Lys]

I need it something cleared up regarding the rules. There are some useful dodge charms like Reflex Sidestep Technique (definitely taking it) and Leaping Dodge Evasion (maybe taking) whose descriptions suggest that they can only be used with dodge type blocks, not parry type blocks. Specifically the text says that these charms can only be used with Dodge DV, but only implies that they may not be used with non-dodge type charms. So can I use something like Heavenly Guardian Defence with Reflex Sidestep? My reading is that the use of these charms only restrict the usage of Parry DV. A silly restriction still, but not as annoying a one.

[Lys]

Hey Hawkings, I forgot earlier. Do not take both the First and Second Excellencies in any ability. While each one is situationally better than the other, they are on average pretty much the same. In other words, taking both is redundant. For Lore I suggest taking the First and Third.

[Lys]

And while I'm suffering from insomnia and random anxiety:

Nomad, what are your views on Charisma vs Manipulation and Presence vs Socialize? The rules try to draw distinctions between the two in a manner that I generally find to be unintuitive and frustrating. For example, why can't socialize be used to make social attacks? Why can't presence be used in mass social combat? Why do some rolls let me choose whether to use charisma or manipulation, but not others? None of it really makes sense to me. Neither of the abilities and attributes seem to be specialized to any meaningful degree, which results in a confusing hodgepodge of requirements that at times make one of a pair redundant and at others make both into necessities.

How am I supposed to gage how effective my character is at what she is supposed to do under these circumstances? And how is it supposed to make sense anyhow?

I mean really, I think some of these things are redundant in terms of what you can do as opposed how you do it. You can make social attacks using your emotions, your force of personality, the opponents emotions, logic, or any combination thereof. Your arguments can be lies or truths, open or veiled, direct or indirect, enlightening or deceptive, any of these or all of these. Some ways of making social attacks are manipulative and others charismatic, some are presence based and others socialize based. Yet the rules do not reflect this in a meaningful manner, and it extends to more than just social attacks.

In general I am inclined to agree to some general definitions of what each attribute and ability does, let players just make any roll that they feel like so long as they can justify it, and damn the rules. But because it's not my call to make I am having difficulty know how exactly things will go, which in turn impairs my ability to balance the point distribution.

Character creation was easier when I was playing a guy who just beat problems to death with a giant killstick. >.>


I'm sorry if this was longwinded and/or non-sensical, like I said above I'm not feeling very well this morning. I just needed to write something to focus my mind on something. Might as well post it on the off chance there's a point in there somewhere. I also want to get concerns out of the way now rather than risk making the wrong assumptions now and having them become an issue later. Again, sorry if it's a bother.

[Cavalier]

I found out about the campaign from Lys. Do you have room for another character, by another newbie player? I was thinking of a Lunar No Moon martial artist scholar, to fit into a niche of kung-fu intellectual that seems to be left for players. And a Lunar isn't yet another Solar. I've been looking at what one can do in character creation, and have an idea for a backstory and motive for involvement in the group.

[The Nomad]

@Cavalier: sure, seems that General Havoc will not be joining us. I'm ok with a fourth player.

@Lys: RST can only be used with Dodge Charms AFAIR. The errata clarified that, but I don't have the time to check right now - I'll also answer the rest of your post later as well, but I fear I don't have a definitive answer. The Presence and Socialize issues are deep set in the system and based on some core assumptions that I'm iffy to shift for balance reasons.

[Lys]

RST can only be used with Dodge Charms AFAIR. The errata clarified that, but I don't have the time to check right now

I checked! Neither RST nor LDM are explicitly banned from being used with any type of charm in the errata or core book. It makes sense, I think, because not being able to use them with HGD severely degrades the value of HGD. I'm still bothered by the PDV limitation, though. I don't see why RST can't be used to buy the fraction of a second necessary to bring your weapon up instead of using it to get out of the way entirely. Nor do I see why you can't parry a blow and then jump away with LDM. But I can deal with it. If nothing else, there's always stunting! ^-^

I'll also answer the rest of your post later as well, but I fear I don't have a definitive answer. The Presence and Socialize issues are deep set in the system and based on some core assumptions that I'm iffy to shift for balance reasons.

I'll await your answer then.